Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Libertine Seguros]

The period of time you're talking about coincides with the two years or so before the bilharzia diagnosis, doesn't it? As in, the time in which Froome most likely had it but didn't know he had it?

Quite possibly.

But we're then believing that Froome was developing his skill set (to the point where, were it not for the illness, he'd be becoming a GT contender) but the illness was simply preventing him from reaching that. Not only that but as his skill set increased, the vice-like grip of the illness got worse so that despite improving as a bike rider his results were actually worsening.

Then, the illness suddenly was treated when his contract was due, and he was able to use all of the skills he'd picked up over the last 3 years clandestinely and without anybody ever noticing, and turned into a GT podium rider. You'd have thought that even as he was physically unable to produce the same results, he might have been able to at least stagnate by compensating with improved nous.

It's just too many leaps of faith for a transformation so absurd. The Alpe d'Huez day that mastersracer points out showed enough promise to say that Froome could be a decent pro bike rider, but it's nothing like enough to say that suddenly materialising into a guy who would have won two GTs had it not been for bonus seconds or being hampered by his own team - and who is now seen as the elite climber in the péloton bar none - is not utterly ridiculous. Remember: Emanuele Sella had a good day in the mountains an awful lot before 2008. He still looked ridiculous when that year rolled around.

Change the flag next to his name. Make it a Spanish one. He doesn't have to be a genuine Spaniard as you could then make the argument of growing up with cycling - he could be Argentine or something, like Flecha. Now how's he looking? I have a chaque he wouldn't have so many defenders in the Clinic, and the thread about him would have petered out in a few pages of people agreeing that he was doping.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Only 78 cases of bilharzia in England in 2010. That's rare.

Would be interesting to get the full story of the diagnosis and treatment.

Was it diagnosed in the UK?

 

[mattghg]

Really man, if you have bilharzia for two years you would have been p!ssing blood for most likely one and a half year. Or, have severe organ damage.

So 'had' an illness and didn't go to a doctor to find out what was wrong with himself. Some early symptoms include a fever plus some others and without being treated can turn into these; bloody diarrhoea and vomiting blood.

So many medical experts on here... I don't claim to be one, but I can google and I note that according to one source

many people are asymptomatic and have subclinical disease during both acute and chronic stages of infection

and also:

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/schistosomiasis/Pages/Introduction.aspx

NHS Website - some symptoms develop months or even years after

I'm curious, though. What exactly is your line on Froome's bilharzia? Does he even have it? Is the whole thing made up? Has it never affected any of his performances?

 

[BYOP88]

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/schistosomiasis/Pages/Introduction.aspx

NHS Website - some symptoms develop months or even years after

Wasn't he given the all clear last summer though? 'After having a course of treatment immediately following Criterium International(2012)'. It's strange this doesn't go away after treatment, or keeps returning after being given the all clear, but not during important races for Froome.

 

[The Hitch]

You could take five people off this forum (not at random, but I'm sure a lot of members know who the most knowledgeable members are), sit them in a room with a WT race startsheet and between them they could cover probably 95% of the riders, and tell you what type of rider they were, what results they'd had, what races they can remember them seeing them in, and the odd interesting snippet too

Alternatively, just put libertine seguros in the room and get 100%

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm curious, though. What exactly is your line on Froome's bilharzia? Does he even have it? Is the whole thing made up? Has it never affected any of his performances?

I believe Froome had (has?) bilharzia, and it is largely responsible for his down period from mid-2009 to mid-late 2011.

However, I am also aware that a parasite such as bilharzia renders Froome's blood passport nigh on useless because there are pretty much no usable baseline figures as a result of it.

I am also highly suspicious of the timing of it, that it was able to clear up just in time for his contract renewal when he was likely to get a bottom-level domestique contract at Garmin or Lampre if Sky didn't renew him... then it flared up again and caused him to suck until June the following year, when it cleared up in good time for Tour preparation. I have a chaque that the cases of bilharzia are being used as a smokescreen, because the effects of the disease are such that they can reasonably do so.

 

[BYOP88]

I believe Froome had (has?) bilharzia, and it is largely responsible for his down period from mid-2009 to mid-late 2011.

However, I am also aware that a parasite such as bilharzia renders Froome's blood passport nigh on useless because there are pretty much no usable baseline figures as a result of it.

I am also highly suspicious of the timing of it, that it was able to clear up just in time for his contract renewal when he was likely to get a bottom-level domestique contract at Garmin or Lampre if Sky didn't renew him... then it flared up again and caused him to suck until June the following year, when it cleared up in good time for Tour preparation. I have a chaque that the cases of bilharzia are being used as a smokescreen, because the effects of the disease are such that they can reasonably do so.

Didn't Sky only renew him after the Vuelta? So that's pretty late in the year to renew someone isn;t it, especially a uber talent/future GT winner?

 

[mattghg]

Thank you Libertine Seguros for you considered responses.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

I believe Froome had (has?) bilharzia, and it is largely responsible for his down period from mid-2009 to mid-late 2011.

However, I am also aware that a parasite such as bilharzia renders Froome's blood passport nigh on useless because there are pretty much no usable baseline figures as a result of it.

I am also highly suspicious of the timing of it, that it was able to clear up just in time for his contract renewal when he was likely to get a bottom-level domestique contract at Garmin or Lampre if Sky didn't renew him... then it flared up again and caused him to suck until June the following year, when it cleared up in good time for Tour preparation. I have a chaque that the cases of bilharzia are being used as a smokescreen, because the effects of the disease are such that they can reasonably do so.

Will you stop making so much sense, you'll give the Clinic a bad name.

 

[martinvickers]

Thank you Libertine Seguros for you considered responses.

LS is one of the treasures of the site. Would more of us (myself included) where like her.

 

[The Hitch]

Funninily I don't have a PHD but can understand perfectly

What made you tell everyone else they dont understand what he is saying then

 

[will10]

Alternatively, just put libertine seguros in the room and get 100%

Libertine would obviously be one of the people at the table. But she's still only got two eyes, I think we'd need a couple of other prominent members to cover the odd one that's slipped through the net of LS's vast knowledge.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Wasn't he given the all clear last summer though? 'After having a course of treatment immediately following Criterium International(2012)'. It's strange this doesn't go away after treatment, or keeps returning after being given the all clear, but not during important races for Froome.

I believe it was Romandie. Where he sucked, big time.

 

[Alphabet]

It sounds far too serious for him to be able to get out of bed, let alone be able to ride a bike competitively.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

With Mastersracer logic, everyone thats had a decent day in their career could be a grand tour winner at some point. Good news for the vast majority or riders that participate in pro tour races. Or does this formula only work on British riders that are willing to train hard and smart?

Krebs Cycle said exactly the same thing, when he copy+pasted a quick excerpt about Wiggins winning a mountain stage in Tour de l"Avenir back in the day.

Just Wiggins, a team mate, and the current green jersey, in a breakaway all day.

 

[BYOP88]

I believe it was Romandie. Where he sucked, big time.

Froome's GF/Wife said it was the Crit' International.

 

[thehog]

Will you stop making so much sense, you'll give the Clinic a bad name.

This is incredible. Froome was on his deathbed and he came back to almost win the Tour. He's lost a load of weight after his blood disorder. He's done so much for cycling. And he has done loads for blood dieaese research. It's just a lot of haters who can't stand a Kenyan winning their race. The sport has moved on and no one trains as hard as Sky and Froome. They have superior tactics an recon all the stages.

 

[pmcg76]

So what? The two main white jersey contenders, Nibali and Monfort, couldn't even hold pace on the previous climb, the Croix de fer, and got dropped there. By the way, at 13:01 he's still with Menchov dangling off the yellow jersey group before he cracks. Yes, some riders show potential but don't turn out to be grand tour contenders. But some do.

Yes but they normally show more than one day of performance in a GT. You say that Froome was not going for GC but surely that means if he aims for a particular day to ride well, he should be in better shape than a young guy who has been riding for GC from day 1. Focusing on one day out of 21 is a lot less stressful than racing every day at top level.

Effectively you defeat your own point by saying that showing one day of potential means very little in the grand scheme of things unless backed up by other results which Froome does not have.

I can say Dan Martin won the Route du Sud, National Championships and was Top 10 in the Tour of Portugal in his first season as a pro, 2nd in Cataluyna as a 2nd year pro and those results would show more potential than Froome ever did but does that mean something or nothing???

 

[del1962]

Yes but they normally show more than one day of performance in a GT. You say that Froome was not going for GC but surely that means if he aims for a particular day to ride well, he should be in better shape than a young guy who has been riding for GC from day 1. Focusing on one day out of 21 is a lot less stressful than racing every day at top level.

Effectively you defeat your own point by saying that showing one day of potential means very little in the grand scheme of things unless backed up by other results which Froome does not have.

I can say Dan Martin won the Route du Sud, National Championships and was Top 10 in the Tour of Portugal in his first season as a pro, 2nd in Cataluyna as a 2nd year pro and those results would show more potential than Froome ever did but does that mean something or nothing???

Dan Martin came from a cycling background, son of a cyclist, nephew of a grand tour winner, while Froome grew up in Kenya/SA very far from the pro cycling scene, comparing their first year pro results is not really fair

 

[pmcg76]

Dan Martin came from a cycling background, son of a cyclist, nephew of a grand tour winner, while Froome grew up in Kenya/SA very far from the pro cycling scene, comparing their first year pro results is not really fair

So what, if you have talent it will show. My local club produced a pro cyclist and for a long time there was little to no cycling culture in our area or the country for that matter. If there were 20 guys even cycling in a 100 mile radius, that was it. The highest level rider our club ever produced was a an A2 standard amateur rider and then boom, out of nowhere one of the best current cyclists our country ever produced, no cycling background, nothing.

Just to add to that, coming from South Africa didn't stop Robbie Hunter from winning a GT stage as a first year pro.

 

[del1962]

So what, if you have talent it will show. My local club produced a pro cyclist and for a long time there was little to no cycling culture in our area or the country for that matter. If there were 20 guys even cycling in a 100 mile radius, that was it. The highest level rider our club ever produced was a an A2 standard amateur rider and then boom, out of nowhere one of the best current cyclists our country ever produced, no cycling background, nothing.

Well Froome's talent has shown it just took longer than soemone who grew up with an uncle who was a grand tour winner

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Well Froome's talent has shown it just took longer than soemone who grew up with an uncle who was a grand tour winner

Yeah, just keep on believing that del.

 

[pmcg76]

Well Froome's talent has shown it just took longer than soemone who grew up with an uncle who was a grand tour winner

Well of course if you count not showing any real talent for almost 4 years then hey why can't a guy show some talent after 6/7 seasons as a pro like Chiappucci or Riis??

Using your argument, shouldn't Nico Roche have shown more potential as a first year pro than Martin considering his Dad was a GT winner as opposed to having an uncle as a GT winner!!!


Ironically the guy I am talking about is of the Roche/Martin age group so really he should have had no right to make it as a pro compared to those guys as he obviously didn't have their background.

 

[The Hitch]

Well Froome's talent has shown it just took longer than soemone who grew up with an uncle who was a grand tour winner

are you serious? You have 1 example of a cyclist who came from a cycling family. And 1 example of a cyclist who didnt.

And you conclude from this grand sample of 2, that all cyclists who come from a cycling family must show talent from the start and all those who don't must be late peakers?

Mollema started cycling as late as Froome if not later. Yet he showed talent almost from the start. How do you explain that?

 

[del1962]

Well of course if you count not showing any real talent for almost 4 years then hey why can't a guy show some talent after 6/7 seasons as a pro like Chiappucci or Riis??

Using your argument, shouldn't Nico Roche have shown more potential as a first year pro than Martin considering his Dad was a GT winner as opposed to having an uncle as a GT winner!!!


Ironically the guy I am talking about is of the Roche/Martin age group so really he should have had no right to make it as a pro compared to those guys as he obviously didn't have their background.

nvm, you really aren't getting it