Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[MatParker117]

If the UCI has given them the free doping pass, then it is perfectly true. They aren't doing the doping for which the federation does not approve. If ASO gets to run the Tour of Britain, then I think Sky will have an another historic year.

Their 2012 win record is unprecedented.

Don't be surprised if the Tour of Britain replaces the Tour of the Basque country on the world tour very soon.

I know I've mentioned this before but when was the last time a team went into a season with the world champion and the best sprinter in the world and the TdF favourite? Despite the crashes Cav was responsible for around half of Sky's stage wins last year.

 

[The Hitch]

particularly with one of the posters defending froome on that old thread (jamsqe) who liked to have a go at spanish riders at every chance he got

Not only that. Take a look at the rant he went on in 3 days of de panne 2011 when sergent roessler and kwiatkowski I think it was put in good tts. Was going bat **** about how brunyeel was giving them "special sauce".

Perfectly fine to accuse eveyone else's riders. But don't dare accuse my own.

 

[The Hitch]

Don't be surprised if the Tour of Britain replaces the Tour of the Basque country on the world tour very soon.

I know I've mentioned this before but when was the last time a team went into a season with the world champion and the best sprinter in the world and the TdF favourite? Despite the crashes Cav was responsible for around half of Sky's stage wins last year.

Yeah and what are sky really singing about? The fact that cav won stages in what he himself calls small **** races?

Oh and no sky did not go into the season with the tdf favorite. Wiggins wasnt even expexted to win Paris nice.

 

[The Hitch]

Are you realistically saying that someone who grew up in Kenya had same opportunites from an early age as someone who grew up in Holland

My source inside dutch cycling got back to me

Mollema before didn't do any particular sport. And yeah he started 'cycling' if you can call it that, when he was 19, but that was really bottom level local touring club cycling

So. How does that fit into your theory that people who start cycling at 14 cant be expected to show anything until they are in their late 20's?

 

[BYOP88]

My source inside dutch cycling got back to me



So. How does that fit into your theory that people who start cycling at 14 cant be expected to show anything until they are in their late 20's?

Come on Hitch, in the Netherlands they have roads!!!

 

[Franklin]

Come on Hitch, in the Netherlands they have roads!!!

Froome was raised in the jungle, he had to walk two hours every day to go to school fighting lions every day.

Whereas Mollema had a bike strapped under his hiney from two years old.

Stereotypes, don't you love them?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So. How does that fit into your theory that people who start cycling at 14 cant be expected to show anything until they are in their late 20's?

Bauke did ride his bike to school every day, 24K a day. In the wind. So, he does have an adavantage on someone who went to private school in Joburg.

Speaking of the Kenian/Joburg wonder, why did he never ride something like l'Avenir?

For that matter, why arent SKY/BC competing with their youngsters in l'Avenir and/or Baby Giro?

 

[MatParker117]

Bauke did ride his bike to school every day, 24K a day. In the wind. So, he does have an adavantage on someone who went to private school in Joburg.

Speaking of the Kenian/Joburg wonder, why did he never ride something like l'Avenir?

For that matter, why arent SKY/BC competing with their youngsters in l'Avenir and/or Baby Giro?

They are Simon Yates (world points race champion) won a stage of l'Avenir and Pete Kennaugh podiumed the Girobio.

 

[roundabout]

Bauke did ride his bike to school every day, 24K a day. In the wind. So, he does have an adavantage on someone who went to private school in Joburg.

Speaking of the Kenian/Joburg wonder, why did he never ride something like l'Avenir?

For that matter, why arent SKY/BC competing with their youngsters in l'Avenir and/or Baby Giro?

Who knows. I think he did ride Regioni and GP Tell.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

Ah bobby jullich that great exponent of clean cycling. talking in hindsight about why froome became the bomb. What does it mean - we tried to hold him back in the first few stages. Froome was crap before because he wasted his energy in the early stages? But now he saved his energy and that's all it took to be the new Hinault.

both these explanations - that anr the didn't know when to put out watts nonsense grossly underplay the difference between 1st and 10th place let alone between 1st and where froome was finishing.


no they didnt. There may have been a few people who thought he was a good cyclist, but no one saw that he was going to be a tdf contender yet alone the greatest gt talent of his ge

Sorry for the misunderstanding re. Aigle, I meant physiological potential of course. To become a GT contender you clearly need far more than just the basic physiological tools for the job, some of the other tools such as endurance, patience and recovery you will only identify and develop over time.

From the same Procycling article there are another two relevant quotes which may add to this discussion,

WCC Coach Michel Theze at 2007 Giro delle Regioni on Froome (he was competing for WCC) "When it's tough, he's very strong - better than the rest, but he's not a technical rider yet. He fell four times during the race. Two of his falls came in the third stage costing him 1:20. When you see that in the final ranking he is only 1:25 behind the winner it isn't difficult to do the maths..."

Claudio Corti somewhat famously announced before Froome's TdF debut that he would "finish in the top five of the Tour de France or do even better." although I presume he didn't actually mean he would do this on his debut.

Daniel Friebe adds that no-one paid any attention, but they did interview him on the night before his tour debut. "Froome's mother had died of cancer two months earlier and, what with the grief, his inexperience, the callow impression he made on us that day and his coach saying that he had barely touched his bike for weeks after his mum's death, we expected him to last a few days. Instead in the final week of the race he was climbing with the leaders on L'Alpe d'Huez and finishing 14th in the time trial."

There's also another good quote from Bobby J about 2011, (same caveat as above I suppose re. hindsight.) "We did some lab testing with him early in the year and it wasn't making sense. I saw the numbers and said to Rod that the machine must be calibrated wrong, because these were the numbers of a guy who would finish on the Tour de France podium. Rod told me that, no, they were right. I was amazed."

So if you add the three unrelated observations together, that he had the 'numbers' to get on the podium, that even with a compromised lead up with his mum's death he had the endurance and recovery to not only finish his debut tour but finish it comparitively strongly and that from two different sources we have criticism of him technically at a level which certainly backs up the fact that he was losing races and by relatively big margins because of his lack of skills. (The zigzag video is another perfect example of this, as is the collision with the commissaire in the worlds. Honestly, he was a bit of a menace )

 

[Clausfarre]

Froome was raised in the jungle, he had to walk two hours every day to go to school fighting lions every day.

Whereas Mollema had a bike strapped under his hiney from two years old.

Stereotypes, don't you love them?

Ha ha, the fun of stereotypes. "Me Froomedawg, you Bradley. Let's go faster somehow".

I don't think geography has that much to do with ability and you can train in Africa to a degree that the playing field is level but I guess you can find whatever data you want to back up either side of this (non)topic.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sorry for the misunderstanding re. Aigle, I meant physiological potential of course. To become a GT contender you clearly need far more than just the basic physiological tools for the job, some of the other tools such as endurance, patience and recovery you will only identify and develop over time.

From the same Procycling article there are another two relevant quotes which may add to this discussion,

WCC Coach Michel Theze at 2007 Giro delle Regioni on Froome (he was competing for WCC) "When it's tough, he's very strong - better than the rest, but he's not a technical rider yet. He fell four times during the race. Two of his falls came in the third stage costing him 1:20. When you see that in the final ranking he is only 1:25 behind the winner it isn't difficult to do the maths..."

Claudio Corti somewhat famously announced before Froome's TdF debut that he would "finish in the top five of the Tour de France or do even better." although I presume he didn't actually mean he would do this on his debut.

Daniel Friebe adds that no-one paid any attention, but they did interview him on the night before his tour debut. "Froome's mother had died of cancer two months earlier and, what with the grief, his inexperience, the callow impression he made on us that day and his coach saying that he had barely touched his bike for weeks after his mum's death, we expected him to last a few days. Instead in the final week of the race he was climbing with the leaders on L'Alpe d'Huez and finishing 14th in the time trial."

There's also another good quote from Bobby J about 2011, (same caveat as above I suppose re. hindsight.) "We did some lab testing with him early in the year and it wasn't making sense. I saw the numbers and said to Rod that the machine must be calibrated wrong, because these were the numbers of a guy who would finish on the Tour de France podium. Rod told me that, no, they were right. I was amazed."

So if you add the three unrelated observations together, that he had the 'numbers' to get on the podium, that even with a compromised lead up with his mum's death he had the endurance and recovery to not only finish his debut tour but finish it comparitively strongly and that from two different sources we have criticism of him technically at a level which certainly backs up the fact that he was losing races and by relatively big margins because of his lack of skills. (The zigzag video is another perfect example of this, as is the collision with the commissaire in the worlds. Honestly, he was a bit of a menace )

Interesting anecdotes on Froome's potential, which tie in with Vaughter's assessment of him and why he was desperate to sign him just before the 2011 Vuelta.

There's a strong case for Froome's light being hid under a bushel, given his terrible handling skills and the Bilharzia (a named affliction, unlike Evans' mysterious virus that has made him crap for a year) he was suffering from. It won't stop the sneering of course

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course it won't stop the sneering. The guy didn't 'develop', he was a completely undeveloped 'project' one day (getting to the point where the 'project' was going to be abandoned) looking to renew his base level domestique contract or take up a similar deal at Garmin or Lampre, and a guy who loses GTs on bonus seconds the next. He didn't develop at all, he just suddenly was good. And while it's true that you can point out problems with his handling skills that prevented him showing his skills before, it is worth noting that he's not exactly the most elegant rider out there now, he rides a time trial like a spider, so it's not like they've fixed all his technical issues and now he's become a top star. Besides, his poor technique and propensity for falling can't be claimed as the sole reason behind weak performances at that point in his career, since he was teaming with Juan Mauricio Soler, who was another notoriously bad bike handler. And David Moncoutié managed to make a career of it despite in his early days having to stop and put his feet down when he wanted to put a rain jacket on or off.

There is enough evidence out there to say that Chris Froome was a talented bike rider before his transformation. But that's what it was: a transformation. A conveniently-timed transformation that took place when his contract was due, won him a spot on the team that won Britain its first World Championship on the road in 40 years, and then he transformed back, until it was time to prepare for the Tour. The guy wasn't a total schlub on the bike in 2008, but there is nothing to say that his 'light hidden under a bushel' was the type of light it has turned out to be, and bearing in mind that over the course of 2009, 2010 and parts of 2011 that light was not just hidden under a bushel but was buried under a housing redevelopment project, his conveniently-timed metamorphosis kind of reminds you of those scenes in bad movies where the heroes find themselves in darkness, strike a match and the whole room is lit up.

If the bilharzia had gone away at some point earlier, enabling Froome to have shown a decent GC ride in a smaller race, if he had blown up midway through the Vuelta or only started to show this capability on some stages, with less consistency, or if he hadn't had another bout of it straight after which cleared up just in time for the Tour de France preparations... or if even while suffering from bilharzia his new-found skills had enabled him to pick up some half decent results with guile and nous, or if he had put together some decent results on a more consistent basis in the pre-bilharzia days, then there would be a lot less sneering. But as it is, we have a guy who was a poor bike handler, with some raw potential but nothing more, then a guy whose results curve was headed in the wrong direction and was looking at a base level domestique's contract, suddenly destroying people who've been in the top 10 of the World Rankings for years, but only at fixed times because his form fluctuates more than Andy Schleck's. This latter issue appears to have been rectified, but there does still exist the problem that a blood disease renders his biopassport nigh on useless as a testing protocol, and the convenient timing of his breakthrough, both for him (when contract is due) and for the team (when Britain has invested time and effort into cycling, they just happen to chance upon a once in a lifetime GT talent at the peak of his powers whose ability was simply obscured for a few years so he hadn't been snatched up by a bigger team after Barloworld's demise) mean that of course there will be sneering, justifiably so, and managing to find one or two of the ten people I once requested who thought Froome could win a GT and who weren't blood relations isn't going to change that.

 

[mastersracer]

Of course it won't stop the sneering. The guy didn't 'develop', he was a completely undeveloped 'project' one day (getting to the point where the 'project' was going to be abandoned) looking to renew his base level domestique contract or take up a similar deal at Garmin or Lampre, and a guy who loses GTs on bonus seconds the next. He didn't develop at all, he just suddenly was good. And while it's true that you can point out problems with his handling skills that prevented him showing his skills before, it is worth noting that he's not exactly the most elegant rider out there now, he rides a time trial like a spider, so it's not like they've fixed all his technical issues and now he's become a top star. Besides, his poor technique and propensity for falling can't be claimed as the sole reason behind weak performances at that point in his career, since he was teaming with Juan Mauricio Soler, who was another notoriously bad bike handler. And David Moncoutié managed to make a career of it despite in his early days having to stop and put his feet down when he wanted to put a rain jacket on or off.

There is enough evidence out there to say that Chris Froome was a talented bike rider before his transformation. But that's what it was: a transformation. A conveniently-timed transformation that took place when his contract was due, won him a spot on the team that won Britain its first World Championship on the road in 40 years, and then he transformed back, until it was time to prepare for the Tour. The guy wasn't a total schlub on the bike in 2008, but there is nothing to say that his 'light hidden under a bushel' was the type of light it has turned out to be, and bearing in mind that over the course of 2009, 2010 and parts of 2011 that light was not just hidden under a bushel but was buried under a housing redevelopment project, his conveniently-timed metamorphosis kind of reminds you of those scenes in bad movies where the heroes find themselves in darkness, strike a match and the whole room is lit up.

If the bilharzia had gone away at some point earlier, enabling Froome to have shown a decent GC ride in a smaller race, if he had blown up midway through the Vuelta or only started to show this capability on some stages, with less consistency, or if he hadn't had another bout of it straight after which cleared up just in time for the Tour de France preparations... or if even while suffering from bilharzia his new-found skills had enabled him to pick up some half decent results with guile and nous, or if he had put together some decent results on a more consistent basis in the pre-bilharzia days, then there would be a lot less sneering. But as it is, we have a guy who was a poor bike handler, with some raw potential but nothing more, then a guy whose results curve was headed in the wrong direction and was looking at a base level domestique's contract, suddenly destroying people who've been in the top 10 of the World Rankings for years, but only at fixed times because his form fluctuates more than Andy Schleck's. This latter issue appears to have been rectified, but there does still exist the problem that a blood disease renders his biopassport nigh on useless as a testing protocol, and the convenient timing of his breakthrough, both for him (when contract is due) and for the team (when Britain has invested time and effort into cycling, they just happen to chance upon a once in a lifetime GT talent at the peak of his powers whose ability was simply obscured for a few years so he hadn't been snatched up by a bigger team after Barloworld's demise) mean that of course there will be sneering, justifiably so, and managing to find one or two of the ten people I once requested who thought Froome could win a GT and who weren't blood relations isn't going to change that.

There is no reason, other than typical developmental trends, why a rider can't show large and rapid improvements by means other than doping. Here's one scenario: a rider is largely self-coached and tends to chronically over-train. They show initial potential, but limited progression because they chronically over-train. They switch to a new team, develop a new training program, and over time eliminate chronic fatigue. It doesn't have to be diagnosed as chronic fatigue from over-training - e.g., Greg Lemond now suspects this is what limited him later in his career (not mitochondrial myopathy, which was a dubious at best explanation).

A second scenario: a rider shows potential, but due to being signed onto a small team is given too heavy a race schedule. In their first year, they race classics and the Tour. Similar schedule second year. They do not learn how to structure their training for multiple peaks each season and instead arrive at key events after a suboptimal peak/taper schedule. They move to a larger team, which has specific classics/GT training schedules, learn how to target key events, and arrive at them after a proper peak and taper.

Re Froome's passport, is there any official statement verifying this claim? Is it really the case that there are no baseline values that can be used to test in competition changes over a grand tour?

 

[thehog]

over-train -> no one trains harder....?

Over-train / train harder.

Huh?

Maybe he's just doping.

Probably.

 

[Netserk]

There is no reason, other than typical developmental trends, why a rider can't show large and rapid improvements by means other than doping. Here's one scenario: a rider is largely self-coached and tends to chronically over-train. They show initial potential, but limited progression because they chronically over-train. They switch to a new team, develop a new training program, and over time eliminate chronic fatigue. It doesn't have to be diagnosed as chronic fatigue from over-training - e.g., Greg Lemond now suspects this is what limited him later in his career (not mitochondrial myopathy, which was a dubious at best explanation).

A second scenario: a rider shows potential, but due to being signed onto a small team is given too heavy a race schedule. In their first year, they race classics and the Tour. Similar schedule second year. They do not learn how to structure their training for multiple peaks each season and instead arrive at key events after a suboptimal peak/taper schedule. They move to a larger team, which has specific classics/GT training schedules, learn how to target key events, and arrive at them after a proper peak and taper.

Re Froome's passport, is there any official statement verifying this claim? Is it really the case that there are no baseline values that can be used to test in competition changes over a grand tour?

You do know that he already joined Sky in 2010, right? Shouldn't that have showed in his performances within the first year and a half?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Who knows. I think he did ride Regioni and GP Tell.

There was a clip of Brailsford sitting next to Froome - I guess it was at the BBC sportsman/woman of the year - where he stated he was impressed by Froome 6 or 7 years ago. Guess not enough to get him into the BC l'Avenir squad.

And, that was criticism on my behalve, why arent BC sending their youthsquads to l'Avenir and Baby Giro, every year? Strange.

I don't think geography has that much to do with ability and you can train in Africa to a degree that the playing field is level but I guess you can find whatever data you want to back up either side of this (non)topic.

It is a BS argument. How long did it take for Impey to adapt to European racing? Hunter?

The Kenia 'argument' is a big red herring, the guy was in Joburg from age 14. Plenty of time to develop on paved roads instead of fighting of lions, elephants and cheeta's during training sessions on mount Kenya.

You do know that he already joined Sky in 2010, right? Shouldn't that have showed in his performances within the first year and a half?

Well, there was that Mortirolo stage.

And for the rest: read Libertine's post 20 times and let the grey masses work.

 

[roundabout]

He was probably still Kenyan then.

Come to think of it, was there even a British team in l'Avenir in 2007?

I guess the only spot for him was on the mixed team with Chtioui and Colombians.

 

[MatParker117]

There was a clip of Brailsford sitting next to Froome - I guess it was at the BBC sportsman/woman of the year - where he stated he was impressed by Froome 6 or 7 years ago. Guess not enough to get him into the BC l'Avenir squad.

And, that was criticism on my behalve, why arent BC sending their youthsquads to l'Avenir and Baby Giro, every year? Strange.It is a BS argument. How long did it take for Impey to adapt to European racing? Hunter?

The Kenia 'argument' is a big red herring, the guy was in Joburg from age 14. Plenty of time to develop on paved roads instead of fighting of lions, elephants and cheeta's during training sessions on mount Kenya.
Well, there was that Mortirolo stage.

And for the rest: read Libertine's post 20 times and let the grey masses work.

After BMC poached Max Sciandri they don't really have anybody to run a development squad right now.

 

[roundabout]

And of course given the lack of success that Colombians have with Corti in charge, maybe Barloworld indeed wasn't the best managed team.

Still doesn't explain why he didn't improve in 2010. Guess he wasn't tested then and nobody noticed his talent.

 

[the sceptic]

Im guessing it was because Barloworld chose to dope, instead of training hard and smart.

If they had been riding clean they could have had a mountain train, and that way Froome dawg could have developed his GT winning potential earlier.

 

[mastersracer]

You do know that he already joined Sky in 2010, right? Shouldn't that have showed in his performances within the first year and a half?

you do know he injured his knee in the first stage of Romandie in 2010, which hindered him for much of the season? You do know he was largely a support rider for major races and that Sky had a strong hierarchy and Wiggins was against him. Lots of factors at work to limit his performances.

 

[The Hitch]

Froome did poor in A because he wasnt training
He did poor in B because he was ill
He did poor in C because he had a knee injury
He did poor in D because he hadnt yet learnt when to output watts
He did poor in E because he handt learnt how to ride on European roads.
He did poor in F because the weather was too cold for him (yes a big argument in 2011 was that the Vuelta 35 degree weather was what got the best out of Froome, of course now he can fly away from eveyone in the cold and wet too)


And then one day Bailsford decides that he wants his team to dominate cycling, and all of a sudden, Froome has absolutely no problems and is the best rider in the world. And lying about Leinders and lying about how Sky were going to be open about their anti doping, were just honest mistakes from Bailsford.

And they all lived happily ever after.


I wish the people who believe these fairy tales all the best when they get into the real world. Others may see this type of innocence more as vulnerability

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

He was probably still Kenyan then.

Come to think of it, was there even a British team in l'Avenir in 2007?

I guess the only spot for him was on the mixed team with Chtioui and Colombians.

He could have participated in 2009 after his change of nationality in 2008. Britain was there in 2009 for instance, but, even with Brailsford hugely impressed by the Froomster, he did not ride. It is not like Froomes agenda was filled with important races in 2009...
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=5789&year=2009&all=1&current=0

You know who where there?
Luke Rowe
Jonathan Mc Evoy
Erick Rowsell
Peter Kennaugh
Andrew Fenn
Mark Christian

Indeed, wtf?

Guess the Froomster did not fit in with these talents.

After BMC poached Max Sciandri they don't really have anybody to run a development squad right now.

Thats funny to the bones. Max - one of the Luigi one two three of Atlanta 1996 - is the only person able to manage a youth squad?

Just pick up the phone and ask Daryll Webster.

And of course given the lack of success that Colombians have with Corti in charge, maybe Barloworld indeed wasn't the best managed team.

Still doesn't explain why he didn't improve in 2010. Guess he wasn't tested then and nobody noticed his talent.

Claudio is a newbie in cycling, with his former Gewiss staffs

ou do know he injured his knee in the first stage of Romandie in 2010, which hindered him for much of the season?

A bilharzicknee?

Did not stop him coming in second to the Wigan in the national TT.

But, to be fair to you, he did show his potential in Amstel, Liege, la Fleche etc etc in the early season of 2010. Coming in 78/137/118.

#fail

PS: did he have an bilharzic elbow in those races?

 

[roundabout]

He was too old in 2009. I think it became an under 23 race from 2007.