Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

I think Martin was hoping for something a little more cryptic than that.

No no no, we already know it was a lack of experience despite the vast amounts of dope that meant Sky didn't win today.

 

[Cyivel]

I almost wonder whether some of the Sky fans are happy when they don't win so they can say hey look not cheating and vice versa

 

[JimmyFingers]

I almost wonder whether some of the Sky fans are happy when they don't win so they can say hey look not cheating and vice versa

It's a lovely f**cking war... (film reference)

 

[martinvickers]

I almost wonder whether some of the Sky fans are happy when they don't win so they can say hey look not cheating and vice versa

Of course, the amusing thing is that today's poor performance, and indeed the lukewarm classics team all season, is no more proof that the team is clean than any other performance...

 

[JimmyFingers]

There is no spoon...

 

[del1962]

Of course, the amusing thing is that today's poor performance, and indeed the lukewarm classics team all season, is no more proof that the team is clean than any other performance...

Two things, training at altitude is much more effective for races with mountain top finishes, and comparitavely Sky's classics riders are just not that good (unfortunately)

 

[martinvickers]

Two things, training at altitude is much more effective for races with mountain top finishes, and comparitavely Sky's classics riders are just not that good (unfortunately)

This is the first year of the 'Kerrison' plan at Classics level. I wonder what lessons he'll learn from it?

Reminds me a little, oddly, of a Salazar interview about Farah - when he arrived in Oregan, he was already touching 'world class', but Salazar said something along the lines of him having great speed, but not power - or power like a girl...this seemed odd since it was Farah seemed as powerful an athlete as Europe had , but it was in finishing kick that Farah was being destroyed... two years later, WC G&S, OG 2G

Or, possible, Salazar has the best Dope, in which case Kerrison should be on the phone tonight...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Marginal gain:
Get your rider in time of track racing so he can adjust to road racing: he will know his way in the peloton without crashing.



It was a real poor showing by sky. Even Hayman. Perhaps they are eyeing for Roubaix.

 

[martinvickers]

Two things, training at altitude is much more effective for races with mountain top finishes, and comparitavely Sky's classics riders are just not that good (unfortunately)

Boassen Hagan is now officially an issue. He can't seem to do classics distances. And one would have to say Thomas' bike-handling may now be an issue too - two critical crashes in two monuments. Stannard has awesome sustained power, and seems to eat pain, but no real kick to speak of.

But by the same token, the classics have been absolutely dominated by two men. I'm not sure anyone saw THAT level of control - and with Boonen crocked now, it's hard to see change going forward...

 

[martinvickers]

Marginal gain:
Get your rider in time of track racing so he can adjust to road racing: he will know his way in the peloton without crashing.



It was a real poor showing by sky. Even Hayman. Perhaps they are eyeing for Roubaix.

I doubt it; i think Flanders AND Roubaix was the idea, but after today they must be wondering... And I agree, one critical crash in a monument is happenstance, but two back to back begins to look like an issue...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Boassen Hagan is now officially an issue. He can't seem to do classics distances. And one would have to say Thomas' bike-handling may now be an issue too - two critical crashes in two monuments. Stannard has awesome sustained power, and seems to eat pain, but no real kick to speak of.

But by the same token, the classics have been absolutely dominated by two men. I'm not sure anyone saw THAT level of control - and with Boonen crocked now, it's hard to see change going forward...

We may be reading too much into this: on the evidence so far this season Thomas has equal or better bike handling skills that Boonen.

And yes, the classics are being dominated. Note the general lack of sustained hand-wringing

 

[Cyivel]

We may be reading too much into this: on the evidence so far this season Thomas has equal or better bike handling skills that Boonen.

And yes, the classics are being dominated. Note the general lack of sustained hand-wringing

You could also note the lack of people defending Cancellara.

Goes both ways my good man.

 

[thehog]

Marginal gain:
Get your rider in time of track racing so he can adjust to road racing: he will know his way in the peloton without crashing.



It was a real poor showing by sky. Even Hayman. Perhaps they are eyeing for Roubaix.

Skipping PN and TA was a joke.

You can't become one day hard by training away on a mountain top.

I don't know what they were thinking.

In saying that G-dawg is very green. He needs to spend a year in Belguim riding in the mud and freezing his *** off.

 

[weeniebeenie]

Clinic Rules

Sky win = doping
Sky lose = it's a deliberate decision to deflect from the fact that they are doping.

 

[thehog]

Skipping PN and TA was a joke.

You can't become one day hard by training away on a mountain top.

I don't know what they were thinking.

In saying that G-dawg is very green. He needs to spend a year in Belguim riding in the mud and freezing his *** off.

Sky's marginal gains approach to the sport of cycling has seen them take a number of unorthodox approaches to training and racing. From dedicated warm-downs, weather pattern strategies for prologues, their "guru" Tim Kerrison, to the less orthodox position of simply signing riders with a larger check book than most teams.

However, this winter they made the unique decision of basing their Classics squad in Tenerife for long periods, and despite promising results in the races leading up to Flanders they were left empty handed. The island has been typically used by grand tour riders.

Mat Hayman, who finished on the podium at Dwars door Vlaanderen, came down with a bug on the evening before the race and Bernhard Eisel started the race after recovering from the same symptoms.

"We had some bad luck with Mat Hayman who got sick last night and Eisel who was sick the night before. We don't know what it is but it was for one day and then they started to get better," Knaven said.

"There are more favourites for Sunday and we're not going to worry. We believe in the team and they believe in themselves and Sunday is a totally different race. We'll have good morale for Sunday again," Knaven said.

As for Sky's Tenerife experiment, Thomas explained before the race that it may take time for he and his teammates to find a winning formulae, pointing to the trajectory of success the team's Grand Tour unit has enjoyed in the last 18 months.

"I wouldn't be surprised if it [success] didn't happen straight away either. I think if we podiumed, it would still be a good result. If you look at the Grand Tours, they're obviously flying now and they're doing really well. But we started in 2010 and it took us two years for that to get going. We might win on Sunday but it will take a year or two because even with this training, we've only started being specific for the last three months. It's the first time I've ever concentrated on the road specifically as well."

What are these guys on?

Think Hayman dropped a bag with dead cells.

One day sickness, right.

 

[The Hitch]

Clinic Rules

Sky win = doping
Sky lose = it's a deliberate decision to deflect from the fact that they are doping.

There are usually 23 teams in a race give or take. The statistical probablity that a team can win every race they take part in is 0. The statistical probabilty that they can win 50% or even 30% of the races they take part in is almost 0. Even if they had the best team and the best bikes and the best doctors and the best trainers and the best drugs.

So to expect a race or 2 that are lost to invalidate suspicion surrounding a won race or 2 is just silly. You may think that the manner of victory or identity of the riders mean the wins don't deserve to be seen as suspicious. But to say thay the fact that the team did not win a different race has any baring on the won race. Come on

 

[JRanton]

Thomas also crashed out in the 2011 Paris-Roubaix. So in the last three monuments that he's raced, he's crashed out in all of them and all at critical times too. Seems like a rider who could definitely do with racing Paris-Nice or Tirreno.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

EBH still lacking endurance. And I'm still inclined to think the classics squad, or most of it, is not part of the Tenerife Troop. Or the Kerrison Crew. Or the Leinders Lot. Whatever.

The Marginal gains Mob.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

4 doctors employed by Team Sky but they don't know what the 1-day illness is.



And it's an illness - not a cold or something that you can race with. An actual illness.

For one day.

Does anyone have any experience with a one-day illness? 24 hour virus?

Didn't EBH have food poisoning post-Tenerife? And now Eisel is recovering from illness, but Hayman is just getting it.

Attention to detail and washing your hands properly is not working too well for these Team Sky classics riders.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Thomas also crashed out in the 2011 Paris-Roubaix. So in the last three monuments that he's raced, he's crashed out in all of them and all at critical times too. Seems like a rider who could definitely do with racing Paris-Nice or Tirreno.

If you are being selective about the races he crashed in i.e. Monuments then why does riding more Stage Races help him?

 

[Ripper]

If you are being selective about the races he crashed in i.e. Monuments then why does riding more Stage Races help him?

I think this was more in reference to more racing in general and perhaps a bit less training, whereas Sky decided not to race those stage races and instead trained on Fantasy Island (as the GT team has been).

The thing is, northern spring classics require a lot more racing savvy and experience of the roads. While power and fitness are (duh) the main part of the equation, knowing where to rest, where to move up, and moving around without wasting energy, will make a significant difference in these races.

FWIW, I was disappointed to see G crash. I was hoping to see a bit of a breakthrough performance from him.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I think this was more in reference to more racing in general and perhaps a bit less training, whereas Sky decided not to race those stage races and instead trained on Fantasy Island (as the GT team has been).

The thing is, northern spring classics require a lot more racing savvy and experience of the roads. While power and fitness are (duh) the main part of the equation, knowing where to rest, where to move up, and moving around without wasting energy, will make a significant difference in these races.

FWIW, I was disappointed to see G crash. I was hoping to see a bit of a breakthrough performance from him.

I certainly agree with you that the spring classics are a different beast. I think Thomas had a decent build up with one days races leading to Flanders and I am not sure that riding GC races such as PN and TA would benefit him from a bike handling point of view.

tbh I think the best he could have got in Flanders was top 10. Clearly Sagan and Cancellara are on a different level.

A bigger issue I think Sky have is their tactics. In GC races it is clear that they rely on the train to pull back and contenders. If that does not work then there is no plan B.

In one day racing they don't seem to have a plan A. There are many times where it would be beneficial for them to put a man in the break but it rarely seems to happen. They appear to try and apply their GC tactics in a one day race which is proving fruitless atm.

 

[Ripper]

I certainly agree with you that the spring classics are a different beast. I think Thomas had a decent build up with one days races leading to Flanders and I am not sure that riding GC races such as PN and TA would benefit him from a bike handling point of view.

tbh I think the best he could have got in Flanders was top 10. Clearly Sagan and Cancellara are on a different level.

A bigger issue I think Sky have is their tactics. In GC races it is clear that they rely on the train to pull back and contenders. If that does not work then there is no plan B.

In one day racing they don't seem to have a plan A. There are many times where it would be beneficial for them to put a man in the break but it rarely seems to happen. They appear to try and apply their GC tactics in a one day race which is proving fruitless atm.

True points.

I said this in another thread ... GTs are a more mathematical calculation. There are only a few real danger men to watch out for, power to weight is simply huge, especially with MTFs. Sky's strategy to ride super hard tempo is not really much of a strategy, but it does prevent a break from getting far in a GT.

Way more variables in a one day, as well as the requirements to have a heavy hitter who can finish things off. That is something Sky lacks, and for all their 'marginal gains' BS, they could make numerous marginal gains by racing more on the cobbles.

Of course, who knows, may be their GT team is really that much more doped up

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

True points.

I said this in another thread ... GTs are a more mathematical calculation. There are only a few real danger men to watch out for, power to weight is simply huge, especially with MTFs. Sky's strategy to ride super hard tempo is not really much of a strategy, but it does prevent a break from getting far in a GT.

Another reason that they can use this strategy is because they have got guys that are so strong in the TTs. Effectively, the GC version of the heavy hitter you mention later. So long as they can watch in the mountains they can win it in the TTs. I guess comparable to whittling the field down and knowing you can win the sprint in a one day race.

Way more variables in a one day, as well as the requirements to have a heavy hitter who can finish things off. That is something Sky lacks, and for all their 'marginal gains' BS, they could make numerous marginal gains by racing more on the cobbles.
Of course, who knows, may be their GT team is really that much more doped up

Maybe they don't put anyone in the break as they don't have anyone that can finish it off? Stannard is strong but will never win a sprint. It may also be that the top guys (Sgan, Cancellara, Boonen, etc...) are just to good. Other teams seem to have similar problems getting results in the monuments as well.

Quite possible that the GC team is on a different programme but if this is the case what would be the reason not to do the same for the classics team? More chance of getting caught?

 

[Strathlubnaig]

That is true, I am trying hard, and failing, to recall a race where a sky rider was in a break.