Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Wallace and Gromit]

Wiggins time trial prowess is a myth. Until his transformation he struggled to stay with the second tier time trialists. He was no better than Millar off the juice. Then--snap!--he suddenly as good as Cancellara.

This is interesting, but not relevant to the apparent inconsistency between the current claimed w/kg for Wiggo and Froome and their relative climbing capabilities (proxy for w/kg).

 

[BroDeal]

This is interesting, but not relevant to the apparent inconsistency between the current claimed w/kg for Wiggo and Froome and their relative climbing capabilities (proxy for w/kg).

Just sayin'. The popular idea that Wiggins was always a time trial god has no basis in reality.

As for climbing, I think Wiggins is so juiced that he does not want to make things too obvious. It is like Landis in 2006 when he rode the climbs at a conservatige (for him) level, just enough to win overall; it was not until he dehydrated on stage 16 that he had to show people his true level on stage 17. Another example was Armstrong in 2005. In the first week he had the win in the bag so he just cruised around France while giving his domestiques the one time in seven years they were allowed to try for personal stage wins.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Just sayin'. The popular idea that Wiggins was always a time trial god has no basis in reality.

I think the argument is actually that Wiggo was competitive in TTs in 2007 (ie the last year he rode on the road in a vaguely serious fashion as a trackie) since when the big dogs in the TT back then have had to cut back on their doping, allowing Wiggo's TT potential vs clean opposition to be obvious.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think the argument is actually that Wiggo was competitive in TTs in 2007 (ie the last year he rode on the road in a vaguely serious fashion as a trackie) since when the big dogs in the TT back then have had to cut back on their doping, allowing Wiggo's TT potential vs clean opposition to be obvious.

There is a huge step up in Wiggins' time trial level between 2008 (Olympic year) and 2009 (focusing on the road) in longer time trials, which would support your theory.

There's another very noticeable step up between 2011 and 2012, though, where he went from consistently in the top 10 and often top 5, to 1st in every long TT he entered, often by quite some way, and 2nd in every prologue but one.

 

[BroDeal]

I think the argument is actually that Wiggo was competitive in TTs in 2007 (ie the last year he rode on the road in a vaguely serious fashion as a trackie) since when the big dogs in the TT back then have had to cut back on their doping, allowing Wiggo's TT potential vs clean opposition to be obvious.

I am not buying this not concentrating on the road excuse. If there was no cross-over between short time trials and long time trials, a very dubious idea because beyond a few minutes effort is almost purely aerobic, then Wiggins still should have been killing it in all the prologues.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I think the argument is actually that Wiggo was competitive in TTs in 2007 (ie the last year he rode on the road in a vaguely serious fashion as a trackie) since when the big dogs in the TT back then have had to cut back on their doping, allowing Wiggo's TT potential vs clean opposition to be obvious.

Wiggins broke the record (average speed on long flat TT at Worlds or Olympics) at the Olympics '12. Cancellara held the record until the Worlds TT '11 (Copenhagen) where it was bested by Martin.

TT speeds aren't coming down, they are going up and Sir Wiggo is leading the way.

I guess its all down to doped bikes (read aerodynamics) or that special air around London.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Wiggins broke the record (average speed on long flat TT at Worlds or Olympics) at the Olympics '12. Cancellara held the record until the Worlds TT '11 (Copenhagen) where it was bested by Martin.

TT speeds aren't coming down, they are going up and Sir Wiggo is leading the way.

I guess its all down to doped bikes (read aerodynamics) or that special air around London.

As long as Rubinho still holds the overall record for fastest long ITT (over 56km/h with a tailwind) it's ok.

 

[the sceptic]

Wiggins broke the record (average speed on long flat TT at Worlds or Olympics) at the Olympics '12. Cancellara held the record until the Worlds TT '11 (Copenhagen) where it was bested by Martin.

TT speeds aren't coming down, they are going up and Sir Wiggo is leading the way.

I guess its all down to doped bikes (read aerodynamics) or that special air around London.

480 watts for 1 hour was pretty impressive. Wonder if his lover Lance could have beat that.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I am not buying this not concentrating on the road excuse. If there was no cross-over between short time trials and long time trials, a very dubious idea because beyond a few minutes effort is almost purely aerobic, then Wiggins still should have been killing it in all the prologues.

You're missing the point. The argument re TTs (and it's not mine; I'm simply summarising what I have deduced as common threads in the arguments of others) is that there's less doping now than there was pre 2008 ie pre passport. Thus, Wiggins was losing prologues and TTs because the opposition was doping, not because he wasn't focusing on the road. (The road focus side of things relates primarily to losing weight for climbing and training differently for longer efforts.)

 

[Dazed and Confused]

As long as Rubinho still holds the overall record for fastest long ITT (over 56km/h with a tailwind) it's ok.

yea, round trips are a b!itch. Relying on a wind change at the exact right moment.

Also W&G, check out the Col d'Èze TT all time leaderboard. Wiggins is doing pretty well here too.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I guess its all down to doped bikes (read aerodynamics)...

Aerodynamics obviously play a significant part in TT speeds. Whether the cahnges in aerodynamics fully explain the changes in TT speeds is a very good question.

On a side note, why on earth do you refer to aerodynamics as "doped bikes"? Doping is cheating, but outspending the opposition to design a faster machine is perfectly within the rules. It obviously doesn't promote a level playing field, but sport has never been about level playing fields. (Except snooker.) Sport is about winning.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

yea, round trips are a b!itch. Relying on a wind change at the exact right moment.

Also W&G, check out the Col d'Èze TT all time leaderboard. Wiggins is doing pretty well here too.

Indeed. As I've said before, I am very suspicious of Wiggo.

BroDeal was rejecting the argument that Wiggo has always been a time-trial god. I was simply highlighting that no-one is claiming that he always has been a TT god and that a more subtle argument often proposed to support Wiggo is that his TTing is the same in absolute terms but has improved relative to the opposition as they are no longer doping. Given my suspicions highlighted above, I'll leave it to you to deduce whether I believe this more subtle argument.

 

[the sceptic]

So everyone stopped doping in 2012? i thought they already stopped in 2008 when Vaughters called the truce.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I think the argument is actually that Wiggo was competitive in TTs in 2007 (ie the last year he rode on the road in a vaguely serious fashion as a trackie) since when the big dogs in the TT back then have had to cut back on their doping, allowing Wiggo's TT potential vs clean opposition to be obvious.

Yeah, because he loved his allowance from British Cycling more than the millions he is earning now...

 

[MatParker117]

There is a huge step up in Wiggins' time trial level between 2008 (Olympic year) and 2009 (focusing on the road) in longer time trials, which would support your theory.

There's another very noticeable step up between 2011 and 2012, though, where he went from consistently in the top 10 and often top 5, to 1st in every long TT he entered, often by quite some way, and 2nd in every prologue but one.

According to his book the reason he made that jump was by watching a lot of Tony Martin footage and figuring out how Martin out a minute on him at the worlds.

 

[gooner]

Guys, go away and watch football and listen to Brad.

Wiggins is the most recognisable figure in the peloton as cycling enters the first grand tour since Lance Armstrong confessed to years of serial doping, but he says he no longer feels the burden of having to prove that he and his team are, unlike so many of their predecessors, racing clean.

He said: "Initially I did feel [a burden]. Like most scandals, Jimmy Savile or whatever else, after a couple of weeks it all goes away and you crack on with your own life.

"Whether anything ever comes of it remains to be seen. I've made my view quite clear.

"I can't explain it any more than I have done. At times you feel like you are banging your head against a brick wall but I don't feel I have to justify myself to anyone or win anyone's confidence over.

"We do what we do and if people want to follow us that's it. If they don't they can go and watch football."

http://news.sky.com/story/1084536/bradley-wiggins-i-could-win-second-tour

 

[the sceptic]

According to his book the reason he made that jump was by watching a lot of Tony Martin footage and figuring out how Martin out a minute on him at the worlds.

Sounds plausible. Watch your opponent for a bit and gain 2 minutes on him in a year. This is very revolutionary and only 10% of the peloton is doing this. If you add warming up to the formula you have an unbeatable combination.

 

[Schwartzchov]

I wonder how sky riders can get those cortisone injections during grand tours and evade detection.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sounds plausible. Watch your opponent for a bit and gain 2 minutes on him in a year. This is very revolutionary...

In the case of the 2012 Olympic time trial, about 42 seconds over 44K.

You forgot to mention air is a fluid with logarithmic resistance properties. So, a little extra speed takes much more power. We're talking enormous gains in power. Like defying cycling history and somehow learning to climb later in one's career.

Good thing they made enormous advances in TT bikes.

We've heard this all before and it turns out 99% of the dramatic improvement is doping, the other 1% is actually the aerodynamics.

I actually read the interview from Wiggo. I see Grand Tour podium sweeps.

 

[xcleigh]

Just on Wiggins (lack of) TT pedigree, when he set the British 10 mile record in 2006 while riding for Cofidis, just under 18 minutes (33.4mph av), would that be considered as showing some TT potential?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Just on Wiggins (lack of) TT pedigree, when he set the British 10 mile record in 2006 while riding for Cofidis, just under 18 minutes (33.4mph av), would that be considered as showing some TT potential?

I seriously doubt it

 

[D-Queued]

Aerodynamics obviously play a significant part in TT speeds. Whether the cahnges in aerodynamics fully explain the changes in TT speeds is a very good question.

On a side note, why on earth do you refer to aerodynamics as "doped bikes"? Doping is cheating, but outspending the opposition to design a faster machine is perfectly within the rules. It obviously doesn't promote a level playing field, but sport has never been about level playing fields. (Except snooker.) Sport is about winning.

Jumping into the fray:

More than one reason.

Obree's designs were arguably considered 'doped', as is having a seat with less than a 10 cm setback from the BB ... which caused some to cut the tip off the seat.

Thus, anything not UCI legal would be 'doped', even if virtually all of the reg's are stupid and obviously approved in a fit of madness even for Pat.

Since the hour record now requires an Eddy Merckx style frame, etc., then anything other than that would arguably be doped as well.

Dave.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

According to his book the reason he made that jump was by watching a lot of Tony Martin footage and figuring out how Martin out a minute on him at the worlds.

I did that too, I stil stink at TT'ing though.

Are you really, really, really believing this kinda stuff?

I really hope Tony Martin has watched closely last year how the new TT god sir Brad b e a t c h slapped him, time after time.

Oh wait, wasnt it about cadence?

This is Disney stuff, really.

Marx brothers couldnt even come up with these comedy capers.

Just on Wiggins (lack of) TT pedigree, when he set the British 10 mile record in 2006 while riding for Cofidis, just under 18 minutes (33.4mph av), would that be considered as showing some TT potential?

Because Brits are the mark for how good TT'ing should/could/would be?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I did that too, I still stink at TT'ing though.

I seriously LOLed a

 

[Benotti69]

If this isn't Wiggins saying doping is part of cycling and if you dont like it pi$$ off and watch football

"We do what we do and if people want to follow us that's it. If they don't they can go and watch football."

We do what we do???????? = Doping.