Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ferminal]

Isn't this whole thing about some random TT by Wiggins years ago? That having a time as good as Hutchinson means he was always going to win 5 long ITTs in a year?

 

[SundayRider]

There is literally hundreds of British club time trialists who have stupidly fast times for 10/25 miles that mean absolutely nothing. These courses are on super fast roads with LOADS of traffic (articulated lorries etc) that pull you along and quite a few of the really fast courses finish at a lower altitude than what they start at. Virtually every cycling club in the UK will have a member who has done 20 mins or less for 10 miles.

 

[xcleigh]

Isn't this whole thing about some random TT by Wiggins years ago? That having a time as good as Hutchinson means he was always going to win 5 long ITTs in a year?

I simply asked what would indicate a rider as having some TT potential as I honestly don't know. Wiggins, according to some in the clinic, has no ability against the clock whatsoever A sub 20min 10miler indicates some ability in that regard in my opinion. It just depends on how others would see that as an indicator of longer TT potential. I'm pretty sure there are some WT riders out there who wouldn't mind being able to pull that sort of TT time out

 

[SundayRider]

I simply asked what would indicate a rider as having some TT potential as I honestly don't know. Wiggins, according to some in the clinic, has no ability against the clock whatsoever A sub 20min 10miler indicates some ability in that regard in my opinion. It just depends on how others would see that as an indicator of longer TT potential. I'm pretty sure there are some WT riders out there who wouldn't mind being able to pull that sort of TT time out

Did you not read my above post? There are so many amateurs in Britain who have done a 20 min 10 mile TT - it means nothing these times are achieved on what are called 'dragstrips'.

 

[Franklin]

Wiggins, according to some in the clinic, has no ability against the clock whatsoever

Congratulations for the erecting most obvious strawman of the day

Seriously, fanboys on both sides of the divide are absolutely disgusting.

 

[mattghg]

Wiggins, according to some in the clinic, has no ability against the clock whatsoever

According to who??

 

[JimmyFingers]

Did you not read my above post? There are so many amateurs in Britain who have done a 20 min 10 mile TT - it means nothing these times are achieved on what are called 'dragstrips'.

This much is true: the 10 mile TT around 20mins is common to most clubs, a real staple of the local scene.

 

[xcleigh]

Congratulations for the erecting most obvious strawman of the day

Seriously, fanboys on both sides of the divide are absolutely disgusting.

Well according to BroDeal "Wiggins time trial prowess is a myth. Until his transformation he struggled to stay with the second tier time trialists. He was no better than Millar off the juice".

Sorry are you suggesting I'm a fanboy? Please, do me a favour.

And disgusting, perhaps a little less of the drama queen histrionics, there is far more things to be disgusted about.

 

[xcleigh]

Did you not read my above post? There are so many amateurs in Britain who have done a 20 min 10 mile TT - it means nothing these times are achieved on what are called 'dragstrips'.

So is 18 minutes the same as 20 minutes then? Where did that come from, Wiggins has done an 18 minute 10, is that also common amongst club riders? All I'm asking is what does indicate a world class time triallist then? What would you expect Tony Martins time to be over a 10 for instance?

 

[Franklin]

Well according to BroDeal "Wiggins time trial prowess is a myth. Until his transformation he struggled to stay with the second tier time trialists. He was no better than Millar off the juice".

Sorry are you suggesting I'm a fanboy? Please, do me a favour.

And disgusting, perhaps a little less of the drama queen histrionics, there is far more things to be disgusted about.

Ah yes, the fanboyism shines through like a torch, thanks for showing that.

You fully realize that "having no talent whatsoever" is something different than being at the level of "Millar of the juice", unless you are actually so clueless that you don't realize that David is still winning ITT's. But of course, you had to carry it to the extreme because it stings so much that people are doubting Brad.

And sure, drama Queen, I just hate strawmen and assorted tactics as they tear down any chance of discussion. I just laugh that you feel offended because I exposed your trolling tactics

Better luck next time, you have just shown you are not interested in a discussion and are just rooting for your team.

 

[xcleigh]

Ah yes, the fanboyism shines through like a torch, thanks for showing that.

You fully realize that "having no talent whatsoever" is something different than being at the level of "Millar of the juice", unless you are actually so clueless that you don't realize that David is still winning ITT's. But of course, you had to carry it to the extreme because it stings so much that people are doubting Brad.

And sure, drama Queen, I just hate strawmen and assorted tactics as they tear down any chance of discussion. I just laugh that you feel offended because I exposed your trolling tactics

Better luck next time, you have just shown you are not interested in a discussion and are just rooting for your team.

I'm in the agnostic camp as far as SKY doping, hey even I have my doubts about SKY, but that's ok, you carry on suggesting I'm trolling. I just laugh at the clinic generally, and you're are right I am no longer interested in the circular "discussions" that carry on in the clinic.

Oh and one last thing, just out of interest when was Dave Millars last ITT win? Stage 21 of 2011 Giro almost 2 years ago? Or am I wrong about that as well?

It's been fun...................................................

 

[BroDeal]

You fully realize that "having no talent whatsoever" is something different than being at the level of "Millar of the juice", unless you are actually so clueless that you don't realize that David is still winning ITT's. But of course, you had to carry it to the extreme because it stings so much that people are doubting Brad.

He has to invent strawmen because the truth hurts too much. Millar, while off the sauce after his suspension, was a better time trialist than Wiggins. He had better results against better competition. While Wiggins was winning short time trials in crap races like Qatar and the Herald Sun Tour, Millar was winning stages in the Vuelta. What is more, in smaller stage races Millar did not simply save himself for one time trial stage, he tried to stay in contention for a high result overall. And Millar was not exactly a consistent top tier time trialist. He was second tier. Then, suddenly, the amazing fabulous incredible Wiggins transformation and suddenly he is as good as Cancellara and Martin. This transformation was from a guy who spent all his previous road racing focusing on time trials as the only type of race he could win. Where was the room for improvement other than drugs? Not believable.

 

[Benotti69]

He has to invent strawmen because the truth hurts too much. Millar, while off the sauce after his suspension, was a better time trialist than Wiggins. He had better results against better competition. While Wiggins was winning short time trials in crap races like Qatar and the Herald Sun Tour, Millar was winning stages in the Vuelta. What is more, in smaller stage races Millar did not simply save himself for one time trial stage, he tried to stay in contention for a high result overall. And Millar was not exactly a consistent top tier time trialist. He was second tier. Then, suddenly, the amazing fabulous incredible Wiggins transformation and suddenly he is as good as Cancellara and Martin. This transformation was from a guy who spent all his previous road racing focusing on time trials as the only type of race he could win. Where was the room for improvement other than drugs? Not believable.

And that he can climb now with the specialist climbers too. Not believable.

 

[Franklin]

I'm in the agnostic camp as far as SKY doping, hey even I have my doubts about SKY, but that's ok, you carry on suggesting I'm trolling.

No need to carry on, you have confirmed it and the fact you are going away is telltale.

I just laugh at the clinic generally, and you're are right I am no longer interested in the circular "discussions" that carry on in the clinic.

No investment in Sky whatsoever, hence the strawmen and loose and fast on facts? GOTCHA

Oh and one last thing, just out of interest when was Dave Millars last ITT win? Stage 21 of 2011 Giro almost 2 years ago? Or am I wrong about that as well?

So thank you for clarifying that you can actually look up the facts. Now check Wiggo's results pre 2009 and tell me how many GT Timetrials Wiggins manged to win. BroDeal was generous when comparing him to Millar.

But as you took the effort to check the results you must fully realize this.

 

[xcleigh]

He has to invent strawmen because the truth hurts too much.

Hahahaha We're talking about a person with whom I have no emotional investment. I'm a 39 year old male who enjoys cycling, not a 15 year old girl following Beiber on twitter whose just learnt Beiber has a girlfriend. In the end I hope you'll ultimately enjoy discussing your theories with people who all have the same opinion as you. Bye-di-bye.

 

[xcleigh]

BroDeal was generous when comparing him to Millar.

ahh I see so BroDeal IS saying Wiggins is a talentless TTer as he's not even as good as Millar who is only a second tier time trialist himself? Right. Good.

Clueless. Millar still winning TT's is he? Racking my brains couldn't recall a recent TT win for Millar so yes thank goodness for google eh?

 

[BroDeal]

Hahahaha We're talking about a person with whom I have no emotional investment. I'm a 39 year old male who enjoys cycling, not a 15 year old girl following Beiber on twitter whose just learnt Beiber has a girlfriend. In the end I hope you'll ultimately enjoy discussing your theories with people who all have the same opinion as you. Bye-di-bye.

And so the cycle completes. With Armstrong it took ten years for his defenders to claim that even though they continually defend him, they are not really fans of his. The Sky homers have managed to get to that point in less than one year.

 

[the sceptic]

Why do all the skybots "have their doubts" about sky? either you think theyre clean or you think theyre doping.

 

[BroDeal]

ahh I see so BroDeal IS saying Wiggins is a talentless TTer as he's not even as good as Millar who is only a second tier time trialist himself? Right. Good.

Clueless. Millar still winning TT's is he? Racking my brains couldn't recall a recent TT win for Millar so yes thank goodness for google eh?

That sounds similar to people racking their brains to recall a significant Wigans' result before his transformation. I guess they can be forgiven for forgetting about the Tour du Poitou-Charentes.

You might want to examine the goal of Garmin's GT teams recently and the role Millar plays in those squads. They have been going for high overall GC results and Millar is a foundation for that effort. When the team falls apart, like last year at the Tour, he is given more leeway to get a personal result, like a stage win last year.

 

[Franklin]

ahh I see so BroDeal IS saying Wiggins is a talentless TTer as he's not even as good as Millar who is only a second tier time trialist himself? Right. Good.

Clueless. Millar still winning TT's is he? Racking my brains couldn't recall a recent TT win for Millar so yes thank goodness for google eh?

Oh dear, you really are out for a trashing now are you?

Brodeal mentioed that prior his transformation Wiggins couldn't hold his own compared to Millar after his suspension.

- Transformation => 2009 => I'm starting to think you simply do not register this crucial sentence.
- Wiggins did not win a TT in a GT or place high in worlds
- Millar on the other hand won quite a few TT's after his suspension, with Three of those being in a GT. Add a better track record in Worlds

XCLeigh, We can go word for word over Brodeals and your posts and it will get worse and worse. Just be a man and say you missread.

 

[Franklin]

Why do all the skybots "have their doubts" about sky? either you think theyre clean or you think theyre doping.

Hah... I'm not a Skybot and I'm having doubts.

There is still no solid evidence against Froome or Wiggins. Speeds last year were indeed low, the course was indeed tailored to Brad's strengths. There are a lot of questionmarks (everyone should know by now what I think of Leinders^^), but proof? No.

There is however more than enough reason to kick Dave Brailsford from this sport.

 

[peterst6906]

Why ... "have their doubts" about sky? either you think theyre clean or you think theyre doping.

thinking and knowing are not the same thing.

 

[xcleigh]

Oh dear, you really are out for a trashing now are you?

Brodeal mentioed that prior his transformation Wiggins couldn't hold his own compared to Millar after his suspension.

- Transformation => 2009 => I'm starting to think you simply do not register this crucial sentence.
- Wiggins did not win a TT in a GT or place high in worlds
- Millar on the other hand won quite a few TT's after his suspension, with Three of those being in a GT. Add a better track record in Worlds

XCLeigh, We can go word for word over Brodeals and your posts and it will get worse and worse. Just be a man and say you missread.

Yep, my bad You and brodeal are right I am wrong and I apologise. And in return please accept that I am in no way a fanboy. And on that bombshell I will take my leave of the forum, it really does bring out the worst in people (my opinion of course!).

 

[DirtyWorks]

Why do all the skybots "have their doubts" about sky? either you think theyre clean or you think theyre doping.

There's actually a third response of "I don't know."

For some, they don't know because they don't care and never visit these forums, for others they are truthfully open to either possibility.

Unfortunately, there are some hiding behind "I don't know" using terrible excuses like no proof and more or less trying to tear down the idea Sky's Grand Tour squad is doping. As mentioned, an exact replay of the Armstrong threads from years past.

 

[coinneach]

There's actually a third response of "I don't know."

For some, they don't know because they don't care and never visit these forums, for others they are truthfully open to either possibility.

Unfortunately, there are some hiding behind "I don't know" using terrible excuses like no proof and more or less trying to tear down the idea Sky's Grand Tour squad is doping. As mentioned, an exact replay of the Armstrong threads from years past.

I am starting to tire of comparisons with Armstrong......just because he happened, doesn't mean to say he'll happen again (well, not 7 in a row, anyway)
I also think Wiggins is way smarter than most folk here give him credit for, and when goes on about Armstrong's effect on cycling, I just hear him winding you guys up, and enjoying it.
BUT, Wiggins isn't Armstrong.
And I for one, think Sky are clean...not perfect, dreadful parent company, but clean ethos in cycling. But, unlike most posters here, I think I'm open to evidence that might point in another direction, which is why I bother to look here from time to time.
I haven't seen anything NEAR conclusive, nor anything fresh for a while, but maybe I've missed something?