Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[SundayRider]

Hah... I'm not a Skybot and I'm having doubts.

There is still no solid evidence against Froome or Wiggins. Speeds last year were indeed low, the course was indeed tailored to Brad's strengths. There are a lot of questionmarks (everyone should know by now what I think of Leinders^^), but proof? No.

There is however more than enough reason to kick Dave Brailsford from this sport.

what speeds were low? Average speed in the Tour was high, higher than many doped wins in fact.

 

[SundayRider]

Just on Wiggins (lack of) TT pedigree, when he set the British 10 mile record in 2006 while riding for Cofidis, just under 18 minutes (33.4mph av), would that be considered as showing some TT potential?

Plenty of average - (relative to a pro - a pro of any level) club riders do British amateur TTs over 30mph - they are done on mickey mouse courses, it means nothing.

 

[Franklin]

OK I can see that it comes down to this, thanks for clarifying.

If there's one thing that has become clear it's that the real problem are the doctors.

- a rider takes a risk, he can get a ban.
- a doctor has no immediate risk.

This is a quite an important difference.

Also, there is a moral issue.

1. If a doctor decides to give doping because of his interpretation of the Hippocratic Oath it's clear he will do so again and again. I actually understand this reasoning, but it's a clear disqualifier. Just as I as a pacifist shouldn't join the army, a doctor who thinks doping rules are against his patients interests has no place in the sport.
2. If the Hippocratic Oath is no consideration in his decision the doctor is moraly bankrupt and really deserves a ban.

So the first steps to get a cleaner sport are:

- a one-strike ban on medical personel.
- hiring dirty medical staff is also a one-strike offense.
- making the medical staff responsible. They should do periodic checks. If a rider goes rogue they should show they did all they could to stop him.

In my opinion JV knows this and tries to act on it. And like him or not, JV is an insider who has a very good idea how these things work.

 

[Franklin]

what speeds were low? Average speed in the Tour was high, higher than many doped wins in fact.

Climbing speeds and wattages per KG really were notably lower. Even the highest estimates stack favorable to the previous years. Added is evidence from the peloton who are almost ashamed to see they are slower.*

Does that proof it's clean? Of course not. But the performances seem to be a tad more plausible.

 

[SundayRider]

Climbing speeds and wattages per KG really were notably lower. Even the highest estimates stack favorable to the previous years. Added is evidence from the peloton who are almost ashamed to see they are slower.*

Does that proof it's clean? Of course not. But the performances seem to be a tad more plausible.

Have you read BWs book? 450 watts divided by 69 kilos doesn't = clean to me.

 

[veganrob]

What is disturbing is how 6wkg is the new 50%hct

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

1. Not aherring to his own ethical mantra by employing several people who were dirty.
2. Hiring a doctor he fully well knew was very dirty *
3. Lieing about the reason why he hired him.
4. Continued lieing about Leinders employment.

And before you think I'm to harsh wanting to ban him, even Wiggins fully acknowledged the insiduous problems dirty doctors are. He wanted riders to be banned for associating with them. Willingly employing them as team doctor is several degrees worse in my opinion. In this it's also interesting to look how garmin reacts when a rider still visits a contaminated doctor. JV kicks him out and that's because JV exactly knows what it means.


* The chances of not having done a rudimentary background check on the doctor who takes care of the most vital assets (your best riders) is bizarre. The continued "he didn't know, it was a human error, these things happen", are both extremely unlikely and secondly they are no excuse

- Dave Brailsford fully well knows what can happen as he saw the drama of David Millar first hand. If anyone knows what can happen with a rogue doctor it should be Dave Brailsford.
- Dave brailsford has been an insider for years. Leinders was one the three top managers of Rabo (he wasn't just a doctor). It's extremely unlikely he himself or one of his advisors never heard of him.
- The Rabo scandal of 2007 was one of the biggest scandals hitting this sport. The likelihood of employing a Rabo Doctor/manager, yet overseeing his tenure at that time is bizarre.

And to finish IF Dave really was an idiot, he deserves to be fired for being an incompetent bungler. Just as riders are responsible for their own supplements and food, a director is responsible for hiring personel. You can't hide behind incompetence.

But we all know he isn't a bungler.

Whilst I fully agree with you that dirty doctors are a major problem and anyone caught administering PEDs should get a life ban and teams should avoid them at all costs, there is no evidence (and by that I mean evidence that would stand up in court, not "clinic" evidence) that Leinders did anything illegal at SKY.

The fact that he probably broke his own company's self imposed rule and probably is not telling the full truth is a matter between him and his employers. I don't think that SKY would sack someone who has just delivered a TDF, on the face of it, cleanly. Also, as he hasn't broke any UCI rules I don't see how they could ban him from the sport.

 

[Benotti69]

Whilst I fully agree with you that dirty doctors are a major problem and anyone caught administering PEDs should get a life ban and teams should avoid them at all costs, there is no evidence (and by that I mean evidence that would stand up in court, not "clinic" evidence) that Leinders did anything illegal at SKY.

The fact that he probably broke his own company's self imposed rule and probably is not telling the full truth is a matter between him and his employers. I don't think that SKY would sack someone who has just delivered a TDF, on the face of it, cleanly. Also, as he hasn't broke any UCI rules I don't see how they could ban him from the sport.

Brailsford lied to the sport and the fans about Leinder's. That much is evident and nothing new in the sport. That is wont stand up in a court is stupid crap to come out with. It shows the Brailsford is a liar so therefore why believe him when he says the team are clean? I dont. Wiggins finished 3 hours down on the winner of the TdF in 2006. Now he has won it. Not believable.

 

[ebandit]

really?

What is disturbing is how 6wkg is the new 50%hct

really? i recall cyclists facing 2 weeks rest if hct was over 50%

where is there official ruling that over 6wkg is not allowed?

where is there confirmed / accurate data that cyclists are competing at
6wkg or more?

thanks!

Mark L

 

[Franklin]

Whilst I fully agree with you that dirty doctors are a major problem and anyone caught administering PEDs should get a life ban and teams should avoid them at all costs, there is no evidence (and by that I mean evidence that would stand up in court, not "clinic" evidence) that Leinders did anything illegal at SKY.

The fact that he probably broke his own company's self imposed rule and probably is not telling the full truth is a matter between him and his employers. I don't think that SKY would sack someone who has just delivered a TDF, on the face of it, cleanly. Also, as he hasn't broke any UCI rules I don't see how they could ban him from the sport.

Well, that's where you and I vehemently disagree. Hiring a doping doctor should be a bannable offense. And you fully well realize that DB actually agrees considering his desperate lieing about it. And keep in mind that he started lieing from day 1

Any team lieing about eploying doping doctors should be disbanded on the spot. That you are ay-okay with it is beyond ridiculous. You know that the flat-out evidence is that doping doctors and lieing directors is a telltale sign of trouble.

History has shown us that much.

The argument that the UCI is okay with it is fantastic, but that only shows how corrupt the organisation is.

 

[zalacain]

Did you not read my above post? There are so many amateurs in Britain who have done a 20 min 10 mile TT - it means nothing these times are achieved on what are called 'dragstrips'.

The last 25 TT that Hutchinson broke was on an out & back course like that. Started at the top of a massive Welsh Hill rode on the flat turned back and ended at the bottom of the hill.

 

[Franklin]

Have you read BWs book? 450 watts divided by 69 kilos doesn't = clean to me.

Are you talking about BW's book or about the actual recorded VAM's? You are really shifting the goalposts here

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

To the 'SKY buy the best talent around and thus are so good' argument:

What do the following riders have in common?

JOHN LEE AUGUSTYN
DARIO CATALDO
DAMIANO CUNEGO
BERNHARD EISEL
JUAN A. FLECHA
CHRIS FROOME
ROBERT HUNTER
THOR HUSHOVD
MATTHEW LLOYD
VINCENZO NIBALI
FRANCO PELLIZOTTI
MARK RENSHAW
MAURO SANTAMBROGIO

 

[veganrob]

really? i recall cyclists facing 2 weeks rest if hct was over 50%

where is there official ruling that over 6wkg is not allowed?

where is there confirmed / accurate data that cyclists are competing at
6wkg or more?

thanks!

Mark L

What I am saying is that if a rider is riding at 6wkg he is now considered clean for some reason. I don't believe it

 

[Franklin]

What I am saying is that if a rider is riding at 6wkg he is now considered clean for some reason. I don't believe it

Actually, who is saying this?

I never saw anyone hold that specific standpoint. There's a BIG difference in stating it could be clean than saying it is clean.

I saw a lot of strawmen of the Skyfans, but this seems to me to be just a strawman from the other side.

 

[veganrob]

Actually, who is saying this?

I never saw anyone hold that specific standpoint. There's a BIG difference in stating it could be clean than saying it is clean.

I saw a lot of strawmen of the Skyfans, but this seems to me to be just a strawman from the other side.

Read I said considered.

 

[ebandit]

bs

What I am saying is that if a rider is riding at 6wkg he is now considered clean for some reason. I don't believe it

so am i correct in thinking that that such talk is meaningless?

there is no accepted norm

and facts are not verified

more clinic talk going nowhere?

Mark L

 

[Franklin]

so am i correct in thinking that that such talk is meaningless?

there is no accepted norm

and facts are not verified

more clinic talk going nowhere?

Mark L

No. You are going of the deep end on the other side. Wattages per KG certainly could be an indicator, not just on the abolsute end, but also if we have several datapoints of the same rider.

 

[ebandit]

errrr........well

No. You are going of the deep end on the other side. Wattages per KG certainly could be an indicator, not just on the abolsute end, but also if we have several datapoints of the same rider.

is that could be...........but might not be?

Mark L

 

[Ripper]

So, to follow your logic, someone with mental health issues cracking would be pure entertainment.

I am glad I don't bump into you in dark alleyways.

Perhaps you could clarify which rider you think speaks to the press with more class, and which clean rider you'd rather see win a race?

Sorry if my use of pejorative language with Wiggo bothers you. My post was about Chadley quite specifically, so your "logic follows" point is inaccurate. And for clarity, I said he seemed to have some mental issues at the best of times - I did not refer to people with mental health issues.

FCS, who speaks to the press with more class? Seriously? How about most of the rest of his own team, e.g. Froome and Porte. How about Contador. Evans. Nibs. Boonen. I could go on because the list is very long.

Your final statement is a funny one and BTW, disqualifies Wiggo from being a nominee

 

[Franklin]

is that could be...........but might not be?

Mark L

Whatever, I'm not interested in you comedy shtick, especially not after I gave an honest answer. You understand exactly why it's a valuable tool.

 

[SundayRider]

Are you talking about BW's book or about the actual recorded VAM's? You are really shifting the goalposts here

His book, he was referring to the last TT of the Tour.

 

[MatParker117]

On Leinders Sir Dave seriously considered resigning over hiring him and according to the man himself would of done had the BC board asked him.

 

[thehog]

On Leinders Sir Dave seriously considered resigning over hiring him and according to the man himself would of done had the BC board asked him.

Considered?

Instead he sacked Julich, Yates and Rogers with massive payoffs to keep shum.

DB stayed in a job and the Dawg is going FR and its business as usual.

ZTP right there folks.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Well, that's where you and I vehemently disagree. Hiring a doping doctor should be a bannable offense. And you fully well realize that DB actually agrees considering his desperate lieing about it. And keep in mind that he started lieing from day 1

Any team lieing about eploying doping doctors should be disbanded on the spot. That you are ay-okay with it is beyond ridiculous. You know that the flat-out evidence is that doping doctors and lieing directors is a telltale sign of trouble.

History has shown us that much.

The argument that the UCI is okay with it is fantastic, but that only shows how corrupt the organisation is.

Read what I wrote. I was agreeing with you on most things. If doping doctors are banned for life you can't employ them. The problem is that until they are sanctioned they are innocent until proven guilty and are free to be employed. It is a moot point whether technically Leinders employment did break SKY's own rule but I agree Brailsford should not have employed him and his subsequent squirming reflects badly on him, SKY and cycling in general. If somebody employs Fuentes in say 5 years time they are probably not breaking any rules but he should have been banned for life. Simple. Then anyone using him should be banned.

Again read what I wrote. I never said I was ok with anything Brailsford has done, but to disband his team and to be banned for life for telling a few porkies to the press? Bit draconian IMHO.

Agree with you on the UCI, but the point I was making is that he hasn't broke any of their rules so how can they ban him? No matter what any of us think about Brailsford and SKY I think we are pretty much in agreement that the UCI needs root and branch reform