Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Spencer the Half Wit]

In recent years when the Alpe has been climbed, times have been well down on the EPO era. If memory serves, there's only been one sub-40 clocking in a Tour stage since 2006, albeit the race doesn't go there every year. It seems a bit of a stretch to believe that in 2009 they'd have pulled one out of the bag and brought back the spirit of Pantani with a sub 37 minute ascent.

I think the hoohah about Lance has, in general, obscured just how fast the climbs were in the EPO era. Because Lance was the most obnoxious and blatant doper of his era, there seems to be a perception that his performances were the most outrageous. Relative to the opposition and what he'd shown in his early career they might have been, but in absolute terms, he was no match for the EPO era guys.

You could be right about 2009, though. Berto did look like he was riding a sportive most of the time that year and probably had a bit in reserve.

Comparing VAM, there is no doubt that the 94-97 era was faster than anything see since, with the notable exception of Contador on the Verbier in 2009, which seems to suggest that the calculations were awry, as has been suggested elsewhere. IMO this shows that unregulated use of EPO is the way to produce the fastest times and the 50% level, the EPO test and the passport has reduced speeds to a greater or lesser extent. As I say just my opinion.

 

[The Hitch]

In recent years when the Alpe has been climbed, times have been well down on the EPO era. If memory serves, there's only been one sub-40 clocking in a Tour stage since 2006, albeit the race doesn't go there every year. It seems a bit of a stretch to believe that in 2009 they'd have pulled one out of the bag and brought back the spirit of Pantani with a sub 37 minute ascent.

No it isn't a stretch. Ok its a stretch that they can match Pantani, I don't expect that.

But its actually a terrible argument you are proposing that an ascent of Alpe in 2008 tells us more about 2009 than the climbs they actually did in 2009.

Its also typical of the simple attitude to doping that you suggest times will remain constant for long periods.

Take a look at the last 5 ascents of Mur. 4 of them are extremely close to eachother. But then 1 year you have the speed down significantly and the climb being done in a time, 3 times the split between the other 4.

2013:1 km@11,1%---2:48---
2012:1 km@11,1%---3:00---
2011:1 km@11,1%---2:44---
2010:1 km@11,1%---2:45--
2009:1 km@11,1%---2:46---

And btw - Gilbert's 2.44 over there is a record, and done while celebrating the final 200m at that. That was in the year of the slowest TDF since Epo (which can explain why Alpe was so slow that year too).

One can't just paint broad conclusions about entire eras by looking at a few selective climbs. Each race is different, Each rider and programme are different. Doping and anti doping change constantly. The jump from 2011 to 2013 in the TDF shows that. I wont try to fit 2011 into the 2013 narrative of things being fast, nor 2013 into the 2011 narrative of things being slow. They were different races and clearly the doping was different.

And no I'm not saying they were going faster than the mid 90's, but that one can't say that because one year was slower all years are slower. Some years are slower some years are faster.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

...one can't say that because one year was slower all years are slower. Some years are slower some years are faster.

What I'm saying is that because all years 2006 onwards where the Alpe was climbed (2006, 2008, 2011 and 2013) are significantly slower when measured in terms of ascent times for the Alpe (as good a single benchmark as there is, however flawed, as it's at the end of a stage and usually raced pretty hard) than the EPO era then on the balance of probabilities, 2009 would also be slower.

There's no certainty involved, but based on observed performances in years either side of 2009, which is most likely? 2009 is a one-off year to rival the EPO era or 2009 is consistent with performances 2 or 3 years either side?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

But its actually a terrible argument you are proposing that an ascent of Alpe in 2008 tells us more about 2009 than the climbs they actually did in 2009.

If memory serves, in 2009 there was:

- the Verbier stage, which was much shorter than normal MTFs (about half the length) so its high VAM wouldn't be replicable on normal MTFs

- the Arcalis stage, which was a lot slower than when Ullrich won there in '97

- Ventoux, which was pretty pedestrian. Didn't they do 59 minutes compared to the record of 54 minutes? OK, the record was in an ITT, but Lance's best ITT up the Alpe was only 30s slower than his best ascent at the end of a conventional stage, so the gap between and ITT and a conventional climb isn't necessarily as large as one might think.

I just don't think claims relating to 2009 being the "dirtiest Tour" hold any water at all. But obviously, there is a lot of ground between "dirtiest" and "clean", and 2009 was probabaly nearer the former than the latter!

 

[TailWindHome]

Maybe the lesson is that Martin should have trained harder?

Martin's injury was one of several that year - it was a fairly ****ty year all round.


IMHO the World's result in 2013 is a truer reflection of their ability

Martin better than Wiggins who is marginally better than a Cancellara who isn't really focused on that race

 

[SundayRider]

Martin's injury was one of several that year - it was a fairly ****ty year all round.


IMHO the World's result in 2013 is a truer reflection of their ability

Martin better than Wiggins who is marginally better than a Cancellara who isn't really focused on that race

I think since 2012, Cancellara's powers (in the TT) have been on the decline.

 

[The Hitch]

:

- the Verbier stage, which was much shorter than normal MTFs (about half the length) so its high VAM wouldn't be replicable on normal MTFs

But verbier isn't steep which makes achieving a high Vam more difficult.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Not really, track racing was where the money was. The British public shunned road racing during the EPO era and most don't really care now. We like to think our athletes don't dope, but some of us know better.

The TdF is like Wimbledon over here, pretty much the only event in that sport anyone cares about, but less so than Wimbledon. It would have been foolish of him to give up a lucrative track deal and Gold Medal fame to focus on the road and disappear, we all know he loves the limelight.

Thanks for the answer but frankly it isnt really an answer to me question is it? The money involved in track cycling is nowhere near as good as the money involved in road racing, everybody knows this. Given the fact Wiggins changed team Wigan for the Manure of cycling it says something, not everything, about his interest in money wouldnt you agree?

So, when we - lets assume - agree on all of this, why was a man so interested in money not interested in earning what he had a right to given his god given talent on the 4k pursuit?

Wiggins started his road racing carreer in France, forget Linda Mac for a second, where the money is extremely good. Went to the reincarnation of Telekom, good money, before he landed in the arms of Saint Jonathan of Vaughters, where he suddenly discovered his GT talents. Good paying teams, not like team Manure which pays his wages nowadays, but good money.

 

[roundabout]

If memory serves, in 2009 there was:

- the Verbier stage, which was much shorter than normal MTFs (about half the length) so its high VAM wouldn't be replicable on normal MTFs

- the Arcalis stage, which was a lot slower than when Ullrich won there in '97

- Ventoux, which was pretty pedestrian. Didn't they do 59 minutes compared to the record of 54 minutes? OK, the record was in an ITT, but Lance's best ITT up the Alpe was only 30s slower than his best ascent at the end of a conventional stage, so the gap between and ITT and a conventional climb isn't necessarily as large as one might think.

I just don't think claims relating to 2009 being the "dirtiest Tour" hold any water at all. But obviously, there is a lot of ground between "dirtiest" and "clean", and 2009 was probabaly nearer the former than the latter!

58:45 vs 55:51 record. 59:10 for the first clean rider. Just a few seconds slower than the main group in 1994.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I think since 2012, Cancellara's powers (in the TT) have been on the decline.

Don't think so. Instead both Martin (from '11) and Sir Wiggo (particularly '12) stepped up. Equal performance level from Cance imo.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Not really, track racing was where the money was. The British public shunned road racing during the EPO era and most don't really care now. We like to think our athletes don't dope, but some of us know better.

The TdF is like Wimbledon over here, pretty much the only event in that sport anyone cares about, but less so than Wimbledon. It would have been foolish of him to give up a lucrative track deal and Gold Medal fame to focus on the road and disappear, we all know he loves the limelight.

Thanks for the answer but frankly it isnt really an answer to me question is it? The money involved in track cycling is nowhere near as good as the money involved in road racing, everybody knows this. Given the fact Wiggins changed team Wigan for the Manure of cycling it says something, not everything, about his interest in money wouldnt you agree?

So, when we - lets assume - agree on all of this, why was a man so interested in money not interested in earning what he had a right to given his god given talent on the 4k pursuit?

Wiggins started his road racing carreer in France, forget Linda Mac for a second, where the money is extremely good. Went to the reincarnation of Telekom, good money, before he landed in the arms of Saint Jonathan of Vaughters, where he suddenly discovered his GT talents. Good paying teams, not like team Manure which pays his wages nowadays, but good money.

Dont you think when all of those teams would have seen a GT winner in him they wouldnt have payed him top dollar in those days? Its not like the managers of Cofidis and Credit Agricole were dumb f@cks.

Yet, your/the official story remains that after Beijing Brad wanted something else, under the guidance of nutrionist Nigel of British Cycling and supertrainer Rod Ellingworth:

Flèche du Sud 2001
1 [GBR] Bradley Wiggins GBR in 15h 32m 25s
103 Rod Ellingworth (GBr) British Cycl. Fed. 41.58 min

he was able to top three at the Tour, and, given the high probability Conti and Schleck doped in the 2009 Tour he won that Tour?

Silly Brad, he should have focussed on the road sooner, he would have won 7 Tours in a row.

edit: and what Libertine wrote

 

[will10]

Fabian's ITT has certainly declined, not much but noticeably enough so. Take his 2009 level, particularly the Worlds - he was untouchable. It took an extraterrestrial Contador to beat him at Annecy for Fab to lose an ITT that was >4 minutes in 2009.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Fabian's ITT has certainly declined, not much but noticeably enough so. Take his 2009 level, particularly the Worlds - he was untouchable. It took an extraterrestrial Contador to beat him at Annecy for Fab to lose an ITT that was >4 minutes in 2009.

nah, Martin broke Cancellara's flat TT record in Copenhagen '11. Wiggo bettered Martin's in London. These guys are just going faster imo.

Cancellara is now 3rd best, but a consistent performer.

edit: Martin in '13 worlds form would have beaten Cancellara in each of his rainbow rides imo.

 

[will10]

nah, Martin broke Cancellara's flat TT record in Copenhagen '11. Wiggo bettered Martin's in London. These guys are just going faster imo.

Cancellara is now 3rd best, but a consistent performer.

edit: Martin in '13 worlds form would have beaten Cancellara in each of his rainbow rides imo.

You can't just look at average speed - Mendrisio had a small ring climb in it for instance, which isn't exactly comparable to all those speed bumps in Copenhagen

In Mendrisio Fabian caught Larsson for a minute in c.18km, picking up Wiggins for 2 minutes in c.30km. The last lap was more or less a lap of honour with the gold in his pocket .

 

[TailWindHome]

Do you folks believe Wiggins was doping at Garmin?

 

[the sceptic]

Do you folks believe Wiggins was doping at Garmin?

yes, its not possible to have such a huge leap in performance without doping.

at least I have yet to see any credible explanation for how he could go from autobus->armstrong in 1 year.

that said, I doubt the doping was masterminded by JV. He probably knew, or guessed, but Wiggins got the help from the outside imo.

 

[The Hitch]

You can't just look at average speed - Mendrisio had a small ring climb in it for instance, which isn't exactly comparable to all those speed bumps in Copenhagen

In Mendrisio Fabian caught Larsson for a minute in c.18km, picking up Wiggins for 2 minutes in c.30km. The last lap was more or less a lap of honour with the gold in his pocket .

This. That Cancellara Mendrisio performance, madone. I don't know, maybe Indurain was more dominant once or twice. He didn't just win the gold, but also own the silver for Larsson.

Of course he was doped massively for it

 

[GuyIncognito]

This. That Cancellara Mendrisio performance, madone. I don't know, maybe Indurain was more dominant once or twice. He didn't just win the gold, but also own the silver for Larsson.

Of course he was doped massively for it

And he was equally strong in the road race. He'd have won it easily if he had had an ounce of brains that day, instead of attacking 7 times. But he was just too desperate to win at home in Switzerland.

 

[DirtyWorks]

And he was equally strong in the road race. He'd have won it easily if he had had an ounce of brains that day, instead of attacking 7 times. But he was just too desperate to win at home in Switzerland.

Which, is why I love watching bicycle races. The strongest guy doesn't always win.

Now, back to the dreary topics of doping and corruption.

 

[The Hitch]

Found this again from 4 years ago when looking back through some stuff an interesting comment from Wiggins. i post it to maybe help fill some of the blanks for 2010, which was the poor season between the 2009 transformation and the 2011-12 second coming of Indurain.

Team Sky has come to signify a clean team. Is it important to win clean after cycling has had so many problems?
BW: I disagree, to be honest , I don’t think Team Sky sells itself as the “clean team.” We don’t preach to the world about what we do. We believe in what we do, we have our belief system and we stick with it 100 percent. We don’t go out there and accuse everyone else to be on drugs. We cannot control whatever else does, but we’re not walking around like Jehovah’s Witnesses preaching about drugs. We do what do, this is our philosophy, we don’t have to preach about it. We just get on it, that’s the way I prefer to compete. Like with Vinokourov and all the stink-up after he won Liège. The guy has made a return to bike racing, he’s allowed to race under the rules of cycling, as long as that’s the case, and his team complies with the rules of the biological passport, we have to get off his back and give him a chance to race. There are a lot of hypocrites in this sport. It’s quite sad that the sport gets dragged down by all the doping stories. You have to assume everyone is clean until they test positive. It’s not that Team Sky is clean and everyone else is on drugs

Its far more sensible and less vicious than some of what Wiggins has said. Not if he's clean of course. How can a clean rider in the middle of what is still total doping, who has just been beaten out of a TDF podium spot by a man he knows 100% to be doping, say that cycling is clean, complain against doping stories.

But he's not being a hypocrite which is what irks a lot of people most. And he says that with his own words. Fits in with Walsh's "good doper" phrase.

It is of course totally in line with pretty much everything he says in the 2009 -2010 period about the sport being clean, which is why again the - wiggins changes his mind daily ergo lets not take anything he says seriously, defense is so flawed.

Nevertheless as one poster responding to this thread back then correctly notes, its clearly a massive change from 2007 wiggins.

What a depressing quote. He used to have a completely different take on things back when he was a **** GT rider.

.

Particularly noteworthy is that he is accepting of Vinokourov. Vinokourov was the guy at which he was absolutely furious in 2007 for costing him a tt place.

I think this

We just get on it, that’s the way I prefer to compete. Like with Vinokourov and all the stink-up after he won Liège. The guy has made a return to bike racing, he’s allowed to race under the rules of cycling, as long as that’s the case, and his team complies with the rules of the biological passport, we have to get off his back and give him a chance to race.

contrasts at least a little bit, with this

It's difficult but hopefully these guys will get life bans - Vinokourov - hopefully we'll never see him back in the sport which is encouraging for me really.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Was that in print media, Hitch? Would love to see the whole interview.

 

[the sceptic]

Wiggins said he disagreed with Millar over Vinokourov's status as a Tour hero. "David said he was gutted because Vino was one of his heroes, but for me the true heroes are guys like Sylvain Chavanel and Thor Hushovd who are dragging their arses through the mountains, hanging on, getting dropped, and doing it clean."

and then he fell in love with Lance a couple years later..

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

That was also before Hushovd was winning mountain stages and Chavanel was coming close to winning classics, right?

 

[bobbins]

So Wiggins thinks that Kimmage was **** even after taking drugs.

Kimmage may have been a bit better if he was backed by his national federation and a multi-million pound sponsor engaged in a mutually beneficial arrangement.

If ever there was a set-up with the potential to go one better than USPS, this is it.

 

[del1962]

So Wiggins thinks that Kimmage was **** even after taking drugs.

Kimmage may have been a bit better if he was backed by his national federation and a multi-million pound sponsor engaged in a mutually beneficial arrangement.

If ever there was a set-up with the potential to go one better than USPS, this is it.

From this?

I’d say they will, yeah,” Wiggins reasons. “I’d just like to challenge the people asking those questions a little more. Maybe in a more articulate way than two years ago, when I called them all ****ers. I just feel more ready for it now – and more of a responsibility to not shy away from those questions. I am proud to be a winner of the Tour de

France, with no history and no skeletons in the closet. So I’ll challenge people: the real hypocrites of the sport who are asking those questions.

“Even [journalist and former pro] Paul Kimmage, to an extent. Someone summed it up for me: ‘Paul Kimmage: he took drugs, and he was still ****.’ And he has the cheek to challenge us on a daily basis. So it’s a funny old thing.”

http://talksport.com/cycling/sir-bradley-wiggins-le-tour-his-yellow-jersey-pride-and-challenging-doping-hypocrites