Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[TailWindHome]

yes - I forgot, I should just lay back and take s h I t from the skybots on twitter non stop and say nothing...

We're not on Twitter now.

And you love it really

 

[RownhamHill]

The paspport sure caught Armstrong and Horner and no doubt countless others didn't it?

You do know that USADA banned Armstrong recently for life, based in (small!) part on his blood values in the 2009 tour (one in a million chance of being clean apparently according to its reasoned decision). So possibly not the very strongest example you could have raised.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Not really

My point was that those convinced that Wiggins doped in 2012 overstate their case with regard to his performances.

You responded by posting that in 1 year he transformed into a rider 'greater than' Armstrong. You then supported your assertion by posting evidence that he in fact finished (on the road) behind a 37 year old Armstrong.

By all means query his transformation, don't overstate it though.

I realise you mean 2009, not 2012, but still. Like your Ventoux example, taking all the things that happened into account, like the echelon split, the gap between Wiggins and Armstrong by the end of the Tour is statistically insignificant.

The 37 second difference is 0.01%.

This is not a clean Armstrong we're talking about here either.

 

[TailWindHome]

Is that even 1%? Isn't the climb an hour or so? 22 / (58 x 60) = 0.6%

Puhlease.

Hang on.

We were discussing the time gap between Armstrong and Wiggins.

Digger pointed out that it was due to the TTT

I pointed out that 22 seconds was due to Wiggins losing time on Ventoux


You're going to have to explain to me the relevance of that 22s as a percentage of the climb time up Ventoux

 

[Digger]

So Kohl said the passport helped him beat these tests based on all of 6 months of using it after which he got caught.

It almost seems like a line his drug dealer/doctor told him so he would keep buying his products.

And I don't know where these 199 tests came from

CERA nothing to do with passport...new test

 

[The Hitch]

What about:

He's an all time great athlete who even in 2006, in the midst of endemic blood vector doping, managed to finish in the top twenty of various big time trials while riding clean, but obviously never had the motivation to chase GC cos he knew he couldn't compete over three weeks with blood bags and epo. But after the blood passport was introduced and blood vector doping was significantly reined back, speeds dropped and he found he finally could compete on talent and training alone. So he committed himself to the road and his results picked up.
.

There's a big hole in that story though - 2009 was not clean in the slightest. Not just the TDF either. Everything, the whole season was doped. The entire Giro podium was doped. Half the stages were won by dopers. 37 yo Rebellin won Fleche with a 2.45. Valverde won the Vuelta. Almost every wt stage race was won by a doper.

And even if the speeds at the 09 TDF can be explained with - lighter course, they were still way beyond believeable. VAM record, on a climb that may be shorter than many mountains, but at the same time isn't as steep making a high VAM more difficult to acheive. And EPO level Ventoux ascent despite the gc being decided.
3 of the final top 5 served bans in the last 2 years. An additional 1 of the top 10 admitted doping earlier in his career, 1 was caught up in Freiberg, 1 definately worked with Ferrari another one linked to Ferrari.

 

[TailWindHome]

I realise you mean 2009, not 2012, but still. Like your Ventoux example, taking all the things that happened into account, like the echelon split, the gap between Wiggins and Armstrong by the end of the Tour is statistically insignificant.

The 37 second difference is 0.01%.

This is not a clean Armstrong we're talking about here either.

Sure.

So don't overstate the 'Wiggins is a doper' case by making foolish assertions that he transformed into a rider greater than Armstrong in under a year.

Especially not if its only supported by a GC which shows him finishing behind Armstrong however slim the margin

 

[Parker]

CERA nothing to do with passport...new test

But he said it would help him beat tests (CERA is just an EPO variant). So what went wrong? And where did these 199 tests come from? The same place as Armstrong's 500?

If I was sold a device which said it would stop me getting a speeding ticket and then got caught at the tenth camera I passed, I wouldn't be bragging about how good the device was. I'd want a refund.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sure.

So don't overstate the 'Wiggins is a doper' case by making foolish assertions that he transformed into a rider greater than Armstrong in under a year.

Especially not if its only supported by a GC which shows him finishing behind Armstrong however slim the margin

I didn't say he was better than Armstrong. That's not even necessary.

Wiggins' transformation was miraculous. It occurred in under a year. It is supported by the fact he essentially matched a dirty, doped Armstrong at a Tour.

And only a fool would say otherwise.

 

[The Hitch]

Sure

How about getting dropped on Ventoux for 22 secs?

What about it. Landis lost 10 minutes on La Toussuire, 8 to the leader, and he admits he was doping at the time. Ullrich lost 9 minutes to Pantani on Les deux alpes, and he retrospectively tested + for epo there.
Wiggins on his worst day losing 22 seconds to Armstrong and 40 or whatever (seconds) to Contador really doesn't say very much

 

[TailWindHome]

What about it. Landis lost 10 minutes on La Toussuire, 8 to the leader, and he admits he was doping at the time. Ullrich lost 9 minutes to Pantani on Les deux alpes, and he retrospectively tested + for epo there.
Wiggins on his worst day losing 22 seconds to Armstrong and 40 or whatever (seconds) to Contador really doesn't say very much

You need to look at the context of the full conversation there.

 

[TailWindHome]

I didn't say he was better than Armstrong..

The Sceptic did.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The Sceptic did.

Not. And this is the second time his post is being quoted, proving you wrong.

I would say his performance level was pretty close to Armstrong in that 2009 tour. And that is a gigantic jump in performance from the previous year.

To me, this can only be explained by doping. But if you have any theory as to how this could have been done clean, feel free to bring it up.

 

[Netserk]

The Sceptic did.

Who was better in mountains and ITTs of Wiggins and Armstrong?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Tailwindhome:

yes, its not possible to have such a huge leap in performance without doping.

at least I have yet to see any credible explanation for how he could go from autobus->armstrong in 1 year.

that said, I doubt the doping was masterminded by JV. He probably knew, or guessed, but Wiggins got the help from the outside imo.

sceptic has written (with added spacing)

from autobus -> Armstrong.

this is not the same as Wiggins > Armstrong, but instead should be read as

from autobus up to Armstrong.

 

[TailWindHome]

Tailwindhome:




sceptic has written (with added spacing)

from autobus -> Armstrong.

this is not the same as Wiggins > Armstrong, but instead should be read as

from autobus up to Armstrong.

Maybe The Sceptic can clarify what he meant.

I've interpreted his post as 'greater than'

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Maybe The Sceptic can clarify what he meant.

I've interpreted his post as 'greater than'

Incorrectly. As evidenced by his subsequent post, quoted for you twice now.

 

[Parker]

Who was better in mountains and ITTs of Wiggins and Armstrong?

Armstrong. For both.

I presume you mean the 99-05 Armstrong and not the 2009 ageing comeback version.

(Although if you go on Ventoux times the 2009 Armstrong version was the best ever)

 

[Netserk]

Armstrong. For both.

I presume you mean the 99-05 Armstrong and not the 2009 ageing comeback version.

(Although if you go on Ventoux times the 2009 Armstrong version was the best ever)

When they raced against each other.

 

[The Hitch]

You do know that USADA banned Armstrong recently for life, based in (small!) part on his blood values in the 2009 tour (one in a million chance of being clean apparently according to its reasoned decision). So possibly not the very strongest example you could have raised.

Armstrong got banned for a lot of ****. I doubt it was the million to one blood values on its own since Ashenden already said the epo tests were a million to one against Armstrong and everyone ignored it and kept saying - no failed tests.

But its a moot point since Wiggins doesn't fall under USADA, nor do any non Americans.

SO its actually the opposite, an argument against the credibility of the blood passport, or at least the blood passport under the UCI, that a guy - Armstrong, with blood values that were 99.999999% dirty, did not get pulled up on it. Only another organization that most riders are not held accountable to, eventually did.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

What actually happened is the UCI handed the BP panel a smaller subset of Armstrong's values, eliminating the ones that were incriminating, as pointed out by Ashenden. So even if the BP was working, UCI can still dismantle it by tampering with evidence.

 

[TailWindHome]

Incorrectly. As evidenced by his subsequent post, quoted for you twice now.

Would that be the post were he possibly back tracked from the hyberbolic greater than Armstrong to a more reasonable pretty close to an (aged) Armstrong?

I'm happy to take The Sceptic's next post at face value. If I've misinterpreted or misrepresented his view then apologies.

 

[Parker]

When they raced against each other.

They did. And Armstrong - 37 and away from the Tour for four years - beat him. Of course, he had an expensively assembled team to ride on the front to control the pace so he wasn't too vunerable. If only Wiggins had that in 2012 so he could focus on beating people in TTs.

 

[Digger]

The Bikeradar simple jacks still haven't addressed why Wiggins' blood values spiked in 2009 after the rest day.

Or why he said he felt lance and alberto were both innocent.

Nor have they addressed why the passport didn't work for Alberto or FRank.

 

[Digger]

The Bikeradar simple jacks still haven't addressed why Wiggins' blood values spiked in 2009 after the rest day.

Or why he said he felt lance and alberto were both innocent.

Nor have they addressed why the passport didn't work for Alberto or FRank or lance...