Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Justinr]

That's not the choice they faced. Complete hindsight red herring.

By your lights what they must have had, prior to Vuelta was

1 grupetto rider approaching end of contract.
1 jar of super special sauce to get from 0 to GC in 6 weeks.

The choice you are implying they actually had, at that time was

a) drop and sign someone useful - cost, re Froome - nil

b) signed, then 'super' juiced - cost, re froome - well, new GT GC candidate for grupetto peanuts

b) 'super' juiced, then signed - cost, re Froome - paying a small fortune for former grupetto, p*ssing off your existing numero uno, and spreading 'the secret sauce' to s/o who might just walk off to another contract elsewhere with his new found superpowers.

And you're telling us the new leaders in strategic doping chose c).

Oooookey-dokey. Continue.

Bingo - I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[BYOP88]

Nope no doubts at all, I think he dopes. What makes you think he/Sky is clean?

They're British and aside from David Millar and a few others(including track athletes) they've never ever ever doped.
When you fly into London when you're waiting to get through passport control they have signs saying 'Welcome to Britain the land where no one dopes'.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Nope no doubts at all, I think he dopes. What makes you think he/Sky is clean?

Then what was your confusion about the Tour? Donkey pre-Vuelta then boom. Right?

I have no evidence that he is clean. So I don't pretend to know.

 

[Justinr]

So the fake imaginary disease delayed the unleash of the miraculous wonder drug result Froome ?

I think its fair to say it delayed his consistency as it would for anyone else who had contracted it - without it he may have come to the fore a lot quicker.

A quick question - do you believe that Quintana is clean?

 

[SundayRider]

They're British and aside from David Millar and a few others(including track athletes) they've never ever ever doped.
When you fly into London when you're waiting to get through passport control they have signs saying 'Welcome to Britain the land where no one dopes'.

Funny post, I'm British, love the stereotypes, unfortunately it is not true.

 

[SundayRider]

Then what was your confusion about the Tour? Donkey pre-Vuelta then boom. Right?

I have no evidence that he is clean. So I don't pretend to know.

The only thing confusing is Sky's management.

 

[Justinr]

They're British and aside from David Millar and a few others(including track athletes) they've never ever ever doped.
When you fly into London when you're waiting to get through passport control they have signs saying 'Welcome to Britain the land where no one dopes'.

Statistically there have been less British cyclists that have doped. Now that may be because there haven't been that many top flight British cyclists.

Statistics are a great thing if you want to manipulate them. Statistically 8/11 US TDF winners (in terms of victories) were doped - that's 73%. Or you could say 2/3 of US TDF winners (in terms of people) were doped - that's 67%.

A slight aside but proves how you can make data support (or not) what you want.

 

[bobbins]

Statistically there have been less British cyclists that have doped. Now that may be because there haven't been that many top flight British cyclists.

Statistics are a great thing if you want to manipulate them. Statistically 8/11 US TDF winners (in terms of victories) were doped - that's 73%. Or you could say 2/3 of US TDF winners (in terms of people) were doped - that's 67%.

A slight aside but proves how you can make data support (or not) what you want.

You mean caught doping. It's pretty common in the uk. Probably more so these days than it was in the 80s & 90s. Uk sport anti doping don't seem that bothered based on the lack of action despite being given tipoffs.

 

[The Hitch]

I know this may raise a few laughs but it was the bilharzia.

He still had that at the Vuelta though.

 

[The Hitch]

So the fake imaginary disease delayed the unleash of the miraculous wonder drug result Froome ?

Who said it was fake or imaginary?

Schistosomiasis is a very real disease.

 

[SundayRider]

You mean caught doping. It's pretty common in the uk. Probably more so these days than it was in the 80s & 90s. Uk sport anti doping don't seem that bothered based on the lack of action despite being given tipoffs.

In the UK - rugby, both union and league doping is rife. Even amateur/semi pro cycling and triathlon is not immune.

 

[martinvickers]

My take is this, I could be 100% right, 100% wrong or somewhere in-between;

They were going to let him become a free agent at the end of 2011, if they were planning to keep him beyond 2011 they would've already extended his contract. Then he does his Vuelta ride and they have to sign him at a higher price than they would've got him at pre-Vuelta. For a team that pays attention to detail, that has to be a touch embarrassing.

Woah, horsey!

So they've taken this grupetto-fodder, not good enough even to 'dom' at the '11 Tour - pack him full of 'super sauce' the likes of which the world ain't ever seen (why no-one more 'believable' - they've several british riders, anyway, different argument, moving on...) - and send him off to change the world at the Vuelta - but don't bother extending his contract first so we don't end up paying him a fortune, or losing him AND the sauce before you've got any benefit from it?

You have deliberately engineered a way to spend millions of pounds for no good reason whatsoever. And this is presented as the 'real' story on ground of plausibility!

Basic common sense dictates: Give him another peanuts contract prior to Vuelta, he's only grupetto, and THEN sauce him up and watch the investment grow, or at best lose little money on a non-responder ... OR...if he starts looking more money, or sniffing around other teams - GIVE THE BL00DY SAUCE TO SOMEBODY ELSE who you already have bound in!!

 

[EnacheV]

Who said it was fake or imaginary?

Schistosomiasis is a very real disease.

I think there are 1000's posts about the Schistosomiasis cover up story.

Or maybe it is real and a endurance sportsman infested with that **** can't perform well ?

You clinic guys must make up your mind. This is like "he has it" "no he hasnt" depending on how it helps to demonstrate your local statements.

 

[hrotha]

I think there are 1000's posts about the Schistosomiasis cover up story.

Or maybe it is real and a endurance sportsman infested with that **** can't perform well ?

You clinic guys must make up your mind. This is like "he has it" "no he hasnt" depending on how it helps to demonstrate your local statements.

Maybe different people argue different things instead of being some sort of hive mind.

 

[Justinr]

You mean caught doping. It's pretty common in the uk. Probably more so these days than it was in the 80s & 90s. Uk sport anti doping don't seem that bothered based on the lack of action despite being given tipoffs.

Well yes, doping/caught doping - you know what I mean.

My point was more about statistics - you can use / abuse them to your hearts content.

 

[Cyivel]

He still had that at the Vuelta though.

Well yeah he didn't rid himself of it completely until late last year but the reason he didn't ride at the Tour in 2011 was due to him having to take a course of medication after Suisse.

 

[martinvickers]

Well yeah he didn't rid himself of it completely until late last year but the reason he didn't ride at the Tour in 2011 was due to him having to take a course of medication after Suisse.

Do you have a link? 'Cos I'm loathe to say it, bu that sounds to these ears suspiciously like are suggesting actual information, rather than conjecture, and there ain't no place for that new-fangled baloney round these parts, Mister.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Well yeah he didn't rid himself of it completely until late last year but the reason he didn't ride at the Tour in 2011 was due to him having to take a course of medication after Suisse.

Hang on. Sunday says he was a donkey and couldn't compete in a GT until the miracles started 6 weeks pre-Vuelta.

Which is it guys

 

[The Hitch]

Woah, horsey!

So they've taken this grupetto-fodder, not good enough even to 'dom' at the '11 Tour - pack him full of 'super sauce' the likes of which the world ain't ever seen (why no-one more 'believable' - they've several british riders, anyway, different argument, moving on...) - and send him off to change the world at the Vuelta - but don't bother extending his contract first so we don't end up paying him a fortune, or losing him AND the sauce before you've got any benefit from it?

You have deliberately engineered a way to spend millions of pounds for no good reason whatsoever. And this is presented as the 'real' story on ground of plausibility!

Basic common sense dictates: Give him another peanuts contract prior to Vuelta, he's only grupetto, and THEN sauce him up and watch the investment grow, or at best lose little money on a non-responder ... OR...if he starts looking more money, or sniffing around other teams - GIVE THE BL00DY SAUCE TO SOMEBODY ELSE who you already have bound in!!

If you want to talk common sense, common sense dictates a guy doesn't go from never being inside the world top 275 before September 2011, to being in the top 5 just 10 months later and the number 1 18 months later.

 

[martinvickers]

If you want to talk common sense, common sense dictates a guy doesn't go from never being inside the world top 275 before September 2011, to being in the top 5 just 10 months later and the number 1 18 months later.

That looks remarkably like evasion, Hitch. Why don't you address my point?

 

[Pentacycle]

If you want to talk common sense, common sense dictates a guy doesn't go from never being inside the world top 275 before September 2011, to being in the top 5 just 10 months later and the number 1 18 months later.

Common sense isn't always right.

 

[Justinr]

Do you have a link? 'Cos I'm loathe to say it, bu that sounds to these ears suspiciously like are suggesting actual information, rather than conjecture, and there ain't no place for that new-fangled baloney round these parts, Mister.

All I've seen is that he was diagnosed at the end of 2010. I would have thought he would have been treated quite soon after that and quite quickly - the treatment is quite short isn't it?

 

[Justinr]

Common sense isn't always right.

Well indeed, but that doesn't stop us all from giving opinions - one way or the other. Life would be quite boring otherwise...

 

[Cyivel]

Do you have a link? 'Cos I'm loathe to say it, bu that sounds to these ears suspiciously like are suggesting actual information, rather than conjecture, and there ain't no place for that new-fangled baloney round these parts, Mister.

Brief mention here of the timing post Suisse http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...t-of-africa-and-onto-the-vuelta-podium_192373

Also from Walsh's book courtesy of The Hog http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1371841&postcount=191

With the proviso that there has been contradictory stuff posted about how brutal the treatment is.

 

[thehog]

Woah, horsey!

So they've taken this grupetto-fodder, not good enough even to 'dom' at the '11 Tour - pack him full of 'super sauce' the likes of which the world ain't ever seen (why no-one more 'believable' - they've several british riders, anyway, different argument, moving on...) - and send him off to change the world at the Vuelta - but don't bother extending his contract first so we don't end up paying him a fortune, or losing him AND the sauce before you've got any benefit from it?

You have deliberately engineered a way to spend millions of pounds for no good reason whatsoever. And this is presented as the 'real' story on ground of plausibility!

Basic common sense dictates: Give him another peanuts contract prior to Vuelta, he's only grupetto, and THEN sauce him up and watch the investment grow, or at best lose little money on a non-responder ... OR...if he starts looking more money, or sniffing around other teams - GIVE THE BL00DY SAUCE TO SOMEBODY ELSE who you already have bound in!!

This is the finest example of reductio ad absurdum I have ever seen. And Martin by far your dumbest post ever! And I like what you put together

Doping in a team environment is never sending out a group email with the subject title "team wide doping to be implemented, who's in?".

It's starts on the fringes and with experimentation and with only a few. From there, if successful, it grows to other "trusted" confidants. It's never as you described some form of formalised RFP process including one and all.

Froome was a perfect candidate to try a program of new aged doping on. The Vuelta was the perfect race to do that with its lax controls and prying media.

Froome wasn't the chosen one. He was a lab rat for Wiggins and was always going to be a dom, a super dom if they could get his doping right... and the experiment actually went better than expected. He knew once they got it right his contract would extend. You'd never try that approach on a contracted rider. They now have a seven time winner on their hands.

If there was similarities to be drawn from USPS, then it's how it starts and gestates into something better structured and bigger in terms of number of riders.