Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[TailWindHome]

I knew Wiggins winning would have the bots crawl out from under their rocks.

 

[TheSpud]

Yes you are defending the obvious doping of Wiggins.

And you are trying to have our cake and eat it with your arguments.

Rider has quiet(ish) season and peaks at the end to win = doper
Rider is dominant all season = doper
Rider has performances all over the place = doper

Which is it?

 

[BYOP88]

And you are trying to have our cake and eat it with your arguments.

Rider has quiet(ish) season and peaks at the end to win = doper
Rider is dominant all season = doper
Rider has performances all over the place = doper

Which is it?

Whilst you were typing out that post, didn't you get it? They're all dopers. Unless you believe that it's just (some of) the small fish who dope and a few 'big' guys like Dirty Bertie, whilst your favorite riders are all clean and doing battle with these evil cheats.

 

[Benotti69]

Fantastic trolling by Wiggins, what a brilliant ride. Of course Tony Martin is the only rider who can ever win an ITT, from here until eternity. Love that Wiggins is wearing the rainbow hoops. Hilarious for the pointless, puerile place

So puerile and pointless you cannot help yourself but to come in here and cheer on a doper. Well done Jim.

 

[pastronef]

oh dear, cycling fans calling a rider a doper! outrageous, especially as the rider in question called fans boneidle ****ers and ****s, but hey dont let that get in the way of it, never mind the guy has had a ****poor season compared to T Martin but then up pops Wiggins to win the worlds TTs when he couldn't get near the podium in his peak pursuit times, but now a little ToB and bang a world TT title.

so let's do one thing. from next year there will be a limit of CQ point. if you had a shyytty poor season and are below the lowest point you are not allowed to start...

Wiggo has silver 2011, won Olympic 2012 and got silver in 2013. not bad

 

[Benotti69]

so let's do one thing. from next year there will be a limit of CQ point. if you had a shyytty poor season and are below the lowest point you are not allowed to start...

Wiggo has silver 2011, won Olympic 2012 and got silver in 2013. not bad

why dont you compare Wigans pre 2009 and post 2009.

Wigans = Doper.

 

[thrawn]

why dont you compare Wigans pre 2009 and post 2009.

Wigans = Doper.

Do you think he was clean pre 2009?

 

[GoodTimes]

why dont you compare Wigans pre 2009 and post 2009.

Wigans = Doper.

Hey Benotti, Not sure if you really addressed the point. See, you in the quote from pastronef, you had suggested that a lack of results THIS season is indicative of doping. He called you out on that, and asked you to defend the assertion, and now you have deflected and said that a lack of results before 2009 is indicative of doping.

Well, regardless of whether or not there was a lack of results before 2009, or if this is somehow indicative of him doping now, you have not addressed pastronef's point, which is to defend the assertion that a lack of results THIS season is indicative of doping.

 

[Benotti69]

Hey Benotti, Not sure if you really addressed the point. See, you in the quote from pastronef, you had suggested that a lack of results THIS season is indicative of doping. He called you out on that, and asked you to defend the assertion, and now you have deflected and said that a lack of results before 2009 is indicative of doping.

I did address this a few pages back. Wiggins had no decent results this year. The ToC is a working holiday for most who ride it.

Well, regardless of whether or not there was a lack of results before 2009, or if this is somehow indicative of him doping now, you have not addressed pastronef's point, which is to defend the assertion that a lack of results THIS season is indicative of doping.

Wiggins is a doper. End of. Wiggins is IMO worried about testing positive. But he defo doped for TT worlds.

Tony Martin road big races which require big performances. Wiggins road small races that dont require big performances. Tony Martin claiming not being fully fit after a long hard season is his way of saying i would've beaten Wiggins if i was fit and is intended to take away from Wiggins win. But i dont take Martins excuse as legit. Wiggins doped better to win.

 

[Benotti69]

Do you think he was clean pre 2009?

In 2007 Wiggins talked like a clean rider. Whether he was clean or not, i cannot say as his personality is pretty all over the place so maybe he was peed off that Cofidis wouldn't let him go full out on a program and he vented in manner against those who were on full programs. Hard to know what to think of Wiggins statements.

 

[GoodTimes]

I did address this a few pages back. Wiggins had no decent results this year. The ToC is a working holiday for most who ride it.



Wiggins is a doper. End of. Wiggins is IMO worried about testing positive. But he defo doped for TT worlds.

My post did not question whether he's a doper (I think he probably is). I'm also not questioning whether he has a lack of good results this year (I think, compared to Martin, it's clear that he has not had great results, especially since spring / California).

What I am questioning is the use of logic here. I'll have to read a few pages back, but currently I am not aware of where you presented anything cogent that shows that a lack of results this season makes his WTT title evidence of doping, or even a reason for suspicion of doping.

 

[Benotti69]

...........




that a lack of results this season makes his WTT title evidence of doping, or even a reason for suspicion of doping.

So a rider does little all season and then wins TT WC gold and that doesn't strike you as evidence of doping?

This is straight out of Armstrong's playbook. Do little all year roll up and win the TdF.

 

[pastronef]

why dont you compare Wigans pre 2009 and post 2009.

Wigans = Doper.

I say it again. I have no problem with that. I am not saying Wigging is clean.
I was saying he now holds the WC stripes, because he was fastest yesterday. after all the measures he took to be the fastest (as Landis would say)

I do not care what season he had. he had a goal and he got it.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

So a rider does little all season and then wins TT WC gold and that doesn't strike you as evidence of doping?

This is straight out of Armstrong's playbook. Do little all year roll up and win the TdF.

Completely obsessed

 

[GoodTimes]

So a rider does little all season and then wins TT WC gold and that doesn't strike you as evidence of doping?

This is straight out of Armstrong's playbook. Do little all year roll up and win the TdF.

I think this is your argument:

1. Anybody who has a race schedule, or pattern of results similar to Armstrong, must train in a similar manner to Armstrong.
2. Armstrong was a doper.
3. Wiggins results this season are similar to Armstrong TDF years.
4. Therefore, Wiggins results are evidence of doping.

Winning WCTT w/o prior results is not, self evidently, apriori, evidence of doping in my books. No. The above argument does not hold water. You really need to connect the dots better for me to buy into point # 1, as it is not self evident.

Now on the other hand, given the situation in pro cycling, winning a WCTT may be evidence of doping in and of itself, but this is another point altogether.

 

[Benotti69]

I think this is your argument:

No you are putting words in my mouth. Fail.

1. Anybody who has a race schedule, or pattern of results similar to Armstrong, must train in a similar manner to Armstrong.

I gave Armstrong as an example.

2. Armstrong was a doper.

You reckon?

3. Wiggins results this season are similar to Armstrong TDF years.

Yes.

4. Therefore, Wiggins results are evidence of doping.

6.4kw/g is evidence.

........connect the dots better for me to buy into point # 1,

I am not selling anything, buy into my posts whatever you want as you have shown you are more than willing to do so.

 

[No_Balls]

Firstly that wasn't the point of my post. The point was that it isn't the bots who keep kickstarting life back into the thread.

Well that aint quite right. The thread started with a bot attacking "Contador fans" (as if every critical voice against Sky is Contador fans). I believe The Vuelta was brought up also.

 

[GoodTimes]

No you are putting words in my mouth. Fail.

I gave Armstrong as an example.

Honestly not trying to put words in your mouth. Just trying to understand what you're saying. Since you deny that your argument is the way I posed it, please explain how Armstrong, as an example, is evidence that Wiggins doped.

6.4kw/g is evidence.

perhaps. But this is a very different point than the point that a poor season with 1 good result means doping. More on this below, as I thought of an example to illustrate.

I am not selling anything, buy into my posts whatever you want as you have shown you are more than willing to do so.

I've made every effort to represent you properly. I tried to unravel your armstrong example to try to understand what you were saying. As it turns out, my interpretation was incorrect. I am not being deliberately obtuse. You just have not communicated yourself clearly to me, at all.

Think of the student who is very smart, but doesnt have a good work ethic. He skips class all the time, fails a bunch of quizzes, does poorly on the the midterm, doesn't hand in some assignments, and then studies for a few days for the final exam (which is worth 75% of the whole year), and aces the exam. I don't think anybody would accuse him of cheating on the exam, just because of his prior results. I know this, because there was a time back in my glory days before I grew up a bit, where I was that student. And nobody accused me of cheating, they accused me of having a bad work ethic and wished I'd applied myself to the earlier portions of the course (they were right, I should have, and so should wiggins have, but that's not the point of this example ).

On the other hand, suppose there is a test that is nearly impossible to get perfect on. Suppose it is documented that really smart students can get 90% (ie, 6W/kg), maybe, if they work really hard. Then, suppose a few years later the results improve dramatically and a bunch of students start getting 99, or even 100% (ie, 6.4+ W/kg). Then, there is a big controversy, and it's exposed that there is a major fraud going on--these overachieving students are cheating, and are all kicked out of school! Then, a few years later, results climb back up to the same level and new students are getting 99%, and they are using the same Tutors as the earlier cheaters. I can definitely see this as being circumstantial evidence that the new students are cheating too.

 

[red_flanders]

My post did not question whether he's a doper (I think he probably is). I'm also not questioning whether he has a lack of good results this year (I think, compared to Martin, it's clear that he has not had great results, especially since spring / California).

What I am questioning is the use of logic here. I'll have to read a few pages back, but currently I am not aware of where you presented anything cogent that shows that a lack of results this season makes his WTT title evidence of doping, or even a reason for suspicion of doping.

I'll admit to being at a loss as to why it matters. Anyone putting out 480 watts for that amount of time is as likely to be doping as they are to be breathing. That's all you need to know.

There could be a hundred different explanations for Wiggins' results this season, and he could have been doping all year, not doping until now, or somewhere in between.

All that matters is that a guy who was never in his prime able to put out this power, all of a sudden a few years ago started doing it. We don't know of anyone who has ever done this without oxygen vector doping of some kind. We don't have any reason to believe from his history that Wiggins is the once-in-a-lifetime guy who was always so gifted that he could do this naturally.

So it's obvious he doped to win the worlds TT. The rest is noise.

 

[Benotti69]

I'll admit to being at a loss as to why it matters. Anyone putting out 480 watts for that amount of time is as likely to be doping as they are to be breathing. That's all you need to know.

There could be a hundred different explanations for Wiggins' results this season, and he could have been doping all year, not doping until now, or somewhere in between.

All that matters is that a guy who was never in his prime able to put out this power, all of a sudden a few years ago started doing it. We don't know of anyone who has ever done this without oxygen vector doping of some kind. We don't have any reason to believe from his history that Wiggins is the once-in-a-lifetime guy who was always so gifted that he could do this naturally.

So it's obvious he doped to win the worlds TT. The rest is noise.

Succinct , well made and agreed.

 

[GoodTimes]

I'll admit to being at a loss as to why it matters.

...

So it's obvious he doped to win the worlds TT. The rest is noise.

Ya, I suppose it's just the Scholasticism in me that irrationality grates on my nerves.

If you want to be taken seriously, it's a lot more effective to improve you signal to noise ratio, than just to pump up the volume. IE instead of shooting 100 shots, of which 99 miss, shoot the one that counts.

 

[GoodTimes]

Succinct , well made and agreed.

My reading of RF was that he called your "this seasons results are evidence" noise. Not sure you want to agree to that, as from what I have seen, you do not like to admit that you may have made a mistake.

 

[Benotti69]

Ya, I suppose it's just the Scholasticism in me that irrationality grates on my nerves.

If you want to be taken seriously, it's a lot more effective to improve you signal to noise ratio, than just to pump up the volume. IE instead of shooting 100 shots, of which 99 miss, shoot the one that counts.

Taken seriously. Please. Start with the premise that anti doping is a joke. Then look at the sport in this real context and ask who runs anti doping and the answer is those promoting the sport. Then ask yourself who runs the teams, the same people who doped as riders or were doping their riders in what is now called the epo era with the same doctors, soigneurs, masseurs who also enabled the doping back then and was part of their CVs for getting work in the sport are still there doing what they do best.

So scholastic approach with a bit of research will uncover nothing has changed apart from some major dopers were removed but their positions have more than adequately been filled.

 

[GoodTimes]

Taken seriously. Please. Start with the premise that anti doping is a joke. Then look at the sport in this real context and ask who runs anti doping and the answer is those promoting the sport. Then ask yourself who runs the teams, the same people who doped as riders or were doping their riders in what is now called the epo era with the same doctors, soigneurs, masseurs who also enabled the doping back then and was part of their CVs for getting work in the sport are still there doing what they do best.

So scholastic approach with a bit of research will uncover nothing has changed apart from some major dopers were removed but their positions have more than adequately been filled.

Agreed with the above. This does not contradict anything that I have written, and in fact seems perfectly in line with my cheating students example. However, it does nothing to defend your assertion that 1 good result in a season indicates doping. All I'm saying is that your claim that 1 good result in a season indicates doping is unsubstantiated. You have yet to substantiate it.

Again, you will be taken more seriously by the Deniers if you present a smaller target. It's common in a debate to throw everything, including the kitchen sink. Then, the opponent is able to dismantle 90% of what you've said. It appears they've won the debate. A better approach is to just give the 10% that is actually relevant or true or defend-able.

 

[TailWindHome]

putting out 480 watts for that amount of time.

I'm not sure I believe he did to be honest.


Michael Hutchinson @Doctor_Hutch · Sep 24

Wiggins: 'Knew I could get better of Tony if I could sustain 470-80w (at 72kg) in the final.