Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[ray j willings]

I am amazed at the denial Sky fans have. If any other team had hired Leinder's the Sky fan boys would be screaming " dopers, cheats".
Do they forget that Sky were awful until they hired Leinder's.
Froome has gone from winning zilch to becoming a GT favourite. Wiggins started winning TT's at Sky something he could not do for 10 years previous, before he joined Sky. He was never a threat to FC or TM. The year Wiggo won the tour Sky had 4 or 5 riders blasting away up climbs dropping all except the odd climber from other teams. US postal would be left with Armstrong and one team mate .Sky's dominance in that tour reminded me of Pantani and his team mates blasting past everyone back in the day.
Armstrong was years ago. Doping has not stopped since he retired. Riders are still doping because that's what they have to do to compete. Its that simple. Not much as changed.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I am amazed at the denial Sky fans have. If any other team had hired Leinder's the Sky fan boys would be screaming " dopers, cheats".
Do they forget that Sky were awful until they hired Leinder's.
Froome has gone from winning zilch to becoming a GT favourite. Wiggins started winning TT's at Sky something he could not do for 10 years previous, before he joined Sky. He was never a threat to FC or TM. The year Wiggo won the tour Sky had 4 or 5 riders blasting away up climbs dropping all except the odd climber from other teams. US postal would be left with Armstrong and one team mate .Sky's dominance in that tour reminded me of Pantani and his team mates blasting past everyone back in the day.
Armstrong was years ago. Doping has not stopped since he retired. Riders are still doping because that's what they have to do to compete. Its that simple. Not much as changed.

I'm sorry you can't dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.

Leinders, a doctor with clear ties to doping riders, was hired to check the weight of riders every morning. Sky hired him to show that they put doping doctors in their place. They humbled the guy, giving him a menial task that would show the world how doping doctors like him should be treated. Sky is looking for marginal gains in every way, and having a renowned doping doctor taking the weight of riders in the morning is a marginal gain for clean cycling. Quit being so pessimistic.

 

[Parker]

If the Clinic had existed in 1999, the people who are now slagging off Kennaugh for not mentioning events when he was still at school would have slagged off Bassons for not talking about Festina.

Armstrong must kicking himself that the Clinic and twitter weren't around to deal with the likes of Simeoni and Bassons for him.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

If the Clinic had existed in 1999, the people who are now slagging off Kennaugh for not mentioning events when he was still at school would have slagged off Bassons for not talking about Festina.

Armstrong must kicking himself that the Clinic and twitter weren't around to deal with the likes of Simeoni and Bassons for him.

Kennaugh was the one who posted that Linders was just checking weights in the AM, so you'll have to excuse me if I find the idea ludicrous, and think that pointing out the hypocrisy of his tweet when you look at his team is warranted.

And Simeoni admitted doping, so you need to get your categories straight...

 

[Parker]

Kennaugh was the one who posted that Linders was just checking weights in the AM, so you'll have to excuse me if I find the idea ludicrous, and think that pointing out the hypocrisy of his tweet when you look at his team is warranted.

And Simeoni admitted doping, so you need to get your categories straight...

Ok, explain the full role of what a legitimate team doctor should be doing. Make sure you use no more than 50 characters so it can fit within a tweet.

And let's not forget Bassons. His much celebrated whistle blowing never actually mentioned anyone or any team. So would you have slagged him off actually writing less than kennaugh.

 

[bobbins]

Kennaugh was probably too drunk to see what was going on.

Or busy partying with his mate Chuck

 

[search]

Kennaugh was probably too drunk to see what was going on.

he does not exactly seem to be the kind of guy I'd even expect to be able to remember what he had for lunch today - so I don't think it's worth to read too much into anything he says

 

[Parker]

he does not exactly seem to be the kind of guy I'd even expect to be able to remember what he had for lunch today - so I don't think it's worth to read too much into anything he says

He said more of value in one tweet than you will ever say.

I'll give you 140 characters to say anything on any subject to show you are the intellectual superior you clearly think you are. You actual tweeter feed seems to be solely cheap digs at people more successful than you.

Just one fact about you to back up your sense of superiority. Just one.

 

[thehog]

Just one fact about you to back up your sense of superiority. Just one.

I thought the Leinders retort was very good, yes?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Ok, explain the full role of what a legitimate team doctor should be doing. Make sure you use no more than 50 characters so it can fit within a tweet.

I think the point is more that the full role of what a legitimate team doctor should be doing is kind of irrelevant when applied to Geert Leinders, who we know is not a legitimate team doctor (in the sense of challenging the legitimacy within the sport of what he does at teams, not questioning his actual credentials to be a doctor). The point is, should always have been, and should remain, why was Geert Leinders hired? There are dozens of doctors who could fulfil the functions as described by Kennaugh, but without the lengthy tenure at Rabobank with a job of "making sure riders don't test positive".

Because of that history, it makes what Kennaugh says about his role quite hard to accept. If that was all they were going to have him do, why hire the guy with the shady past that could come back to haunt you, because several other doctors could do that job but without the reputational risk. And if that wasn't all they were going to have him do, but it was all he was tasked with at the races Kennaugh did, it makes Kennaugh look like a fool, a liar, both, or worse, Dave Brailsford, if that comes out even though he has not lied.

 

[red_flanders]

If the Clinic had existed in 1999, the people who are now slagging off Kennaugh for not mentioning events when he was still at school would have slagged off Bassons for not talking about Festina.

Armstrong must kicking himself that the Clinic and twitter weren't around to deal with the likes of Simeoni and Bassons for him.

Other forums existed. When it was found out that Armstrong was working for Ferrari a couple years later, and the claim was that he was working with Ferrari to "attempt the hour record", there was AMPLE skepticism. People DID ask those very questions.

When he never did it he was widely slagged for it. It was but one piece of evidence about Armstrong. Of course there were a bazillion believers and Public Strategies interns piling on the nonsense in those forums in favor of Armstrong, despite all the evidence.

Never mind the utter logic fail that somehow what is or isn't posted here has any relevance to the question, "Did Sky dope?"

In other words, even if what you say is true (and it's not) it has no relevance to the truth in the matter.

 

[the sceptic]

*deleted by mod*

you seem angry. Maybe you should try to relax?

sky doping is not the end of the world. It's just a sport.

 

[peloton]

I think the point is more that the full role of what a legitimate team doctor should be doing is kind of irrelevant when applied to Geert Leinders, who we know is not a legitimate team doctor (in the sense of challenging the legitimacy within the sport of what he does at teams, not questioning his actual credentials to be a doctor). The point is, should always have been, and should remain, why was Geert Leinders hired? There are dozens of doctors who could fulfil the functions as described by Kennaugh, but without the lengthy tenure at Rabobank with a job of "making sure riders don't test positive".

Because of that history, it makes what Kennaugh says about his role quite hard to accept. If that was all they were going to have him do, why hire the guy with the shady past that could come back to haunt you, because several other doctors could do that job but without the reputational risk. And if that wasn't all they were going to have him do, but it was all he was tasked with at the races Kennaugh did, it makes Kennaugh look like a fool, a liar, both, or worse, Dave Brailsford, if that comes out even though he has not lied.

As usual, great post LS.

Is it a coincidence that Sky's results made a dramatic improvement in stage races after hiring Leinders? He was hired for a reason, and those weren't saddle sores...

 

[Parker]

Other forums existed. When it was found out that Armstrong was working for Ferrari a couple years later, and the claim was that he was working with Ferrari to "attempt the hour record", there was AMPLE skepticism.

When he never did it he was widely slagged for it. It was but one piece of evidence about Armstrong. Of course there were a bazillion believers and Public Strategies interns piling on the nonsense in those forums in favor of Armstrong, despite all the evidence.

Never mind the utter logic fail that somehow what is or isn't posted here has any relevance to the question, "Did Sky dope?"

In other words, even if what you say is true (and it's not) it has no relevance to the truth in the matter.

I'm not talking about what happened years later. Just what Bassons wrote in 1999 that makes him a hero to many.

First of all do you or anyone actually know what Bassons wrote? In reality it was fairly minimal but it somehow annoyed Armstrong. kennaugh's tweet was far more pointed.

Bassons never really said much at all specific but is hailed a hero. Those who cry out for a new Bassons slate Kennaugh for more, because they are consumed by hatred for Sky. They are the hypocrites, not Kennaugh.

 

[search]

He said more of value in one tweet than you will ever say.

well, you seem to see so much conspiracy that you did not even realize that I was defending him for that Leinders-tweet there. Kennaugh is not the type of guy I expect to be aware of every detail that might have happened - that's all I intend to say, that alone is nothing I would ever judge him for.

About the other tweet: I actually appreciate everyone speaking out about doping - especially if it (among others) even is addressed at a team mate, as in Kennaugh's case.

 

[Parker]

I think the point is more that the full role of what a legitimate team doctor should be doing is kind of irrelevant when applied to Geert Leinders, who we know is not a legitimate team doctor (in the sense of challenging the legitimacy within the sport of what he does at teams, not questioning his actual credentials to be a doctor). The point is, should always have been, and should remain, why was Geert Leinders hired? There are dozens of doctors who could fulfil the functions as described by Kennaugh, but without the lengthy tenure at Rabobank with a job of "making sure riders don't test positive".

Because of that history, it makes what Kennaugh says about his role quite hard to accept. If that was all they were going to have him do, why hire the guy with the shady past that could come back to haunt you, because several other doctors could do that job but without the reputational risk. And if that wasn't all they were going to have him do, but it was all he was tasked with at the races Kennaugh did, it makes Kennaugh look like a fool, a liar, both, or worse, Dave Brailsford, if that comes out even though he has not lied.

So what it comes down is your opinion. That is more important than the truth. The 'truth' is paramount as long as it is written by you.

In your opinion Leinders could only have been hired for doping. That must not be contadicted. The first rule of internet forums is 'protect your opinion'. While Kennaugh knows what the truth is, it cannot be compared to the validity of you opinion (how can it when you are so infallible?). How arrogant are you to think that your unsupported opinions are more valid than his actual experiences? Fool and liar, you call him. Based on nothing more than your opinion. Incredibly arrogant is the answer.

So you want people to speak out against dopers. But only on the condition that the rider saying it is acceptable to you and voices your opinion, not theirs.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm not talking about what happened years later. Just what Bassons wrote in 1999 that makes him a hero to many.

First of all do you or anyone actually know what Bassons wrote? In reality it was fairly minimal but it somehow annoyed Armstrong. kennaugh's tweet was far more pointed.

Bassons never really said much at all specific but is hailed a hero. Those who cry out for a new Bassons slate Kennaugh for more, because they are consumed by hatred for Sky. They are the hypocrites, not Kennaugh.

If you ever ask for riders speak out and then criticise them for doing so, please realise that you are a bigoted idiot.

The idea that Sky are somehow being unjustly persecuted is all I can really make out of your posts here, as I can't follow the Bassons logic or how on earth it applies to Kennaugh.

You seem to be taking a very specific situation and then acting like people are attacking all riders who speak out against doping, or attacking only Sky riders who speak out against doping. I can't figure out which it is. The problem is that people are criticizing Kennaugh because of the blaring hypocrisy that he doesn't seem to see himself. It has nothing to do with Sky and everything to do with the particular situation. The particular situation being that he criticizes those who work with Ferrari and doesn't see why people would criticize Sky for working with Leinders. He also has the nerve to suggest all Leinders did was record riders' weight. That's pretty ****ing ludicrous, and you really can't expect anyone to buy that nonsense, can you? That's why he's getting pounded.

When riders have spoken out and have done so with credibility, they've been lauded for it. The comparison to Bassons makes no sense whatsoever. Bassons was a guy known to be clean who stood up for himself and was run out of cycling. He did NOT claim his teammates were clean. Kennaugh is claiming that all Leinders did weigh riders, with the implication being that his teammates were clean.

The reality is that he cannot possibly know who on his team was or is clean. If he were simply saying, "Leinders never doped me, and I have been clean" (like Bassons) no one would be giving him a hard time.

You see the difference? Try and be less defensive and see the situation for what it is.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Some doping outings are going to be so delicious.

 

[Parker]

Some doping outings are going to be so delicious.

There's nothing so delicious as the cake you never get to eat.

 

[ferryman]

I have to admit, I took it as read that Kennaugh was talking about at training camp. That's the only sense I can make of his tweet. I can just about understand why a doctor would take weight each morning and then go and crunch numbers when the data of the riders comes in after their rides that day. And again, the next morn etc. And then give a report at the end of the week to the powers that be within the team. In that sense it just about makes sense, I think. But it's Leinders.. I know which side of the shoogly fence I fall on!

 

[sniper]

There's nothing so delicious as the cake you never get to eat.

werent you supposed to be agnostic on whether or not sky dope?
showing your true colors.

 

[Parker]

The idea that Sky are somehow being unjustly persecuted is all I can really make out of your posts here, as I can't follow the Bassons logic or how on earth it applies to Kennaugh.

You seem to be taking a very specific situation and then acting like people are attacking all riders who speak out against doping, or attacking only Sky riders who speak out against doping. I can't figure out which it is. The problem is that people are criticizing Kennaugh because of the blaring hypocrisy that he doesn't seem to see himself. It has nothing to do with Sky and everything to do with the particular situation. The particular situation being that he criticizes those who work with Ferrari and doesn't see why people would criticize Sky for working with Leinders. He also has the nerve to suggest all Leinders did was record riders' weight. That's pretty ****ing ludicrous, and you really can't expect anyone to buy that nonsense, can you? That's why he's getting pounded.

When riders have spoken out and have done so with credibility, they've been lauded for it. The comparison to Bassons makes no sense whatsoever. Bassons was a guy known to be clean who stood up for himself and was run out of cycling. He did NOT claim his teammates were clean. Kennaugh is claiming that all Leinders did weigh riders, with the implication being that his teammates were clean.

The reality is that he cannot possibly know who on his team was or is clean. If he were simply saying, "Leinders never doped me, and I have been clean" (like Bassons) no one would be giving him a hard time.

You see the difference? Try and be less defensive and see the situation for what it is.

No you're getting off subject.

Kennaugh made his tweet. He got much support but from the doping extremists he got abuse - what about Rogers, Leinders, etc

If Bassons had tweeted in 1999 with the little he said, he would have got similar abuse due to him not speaking out about Festina (who said nothing about while he was there or in 1999). The people who abused Kennaugh would have abused Bassons.

The sort of people you acclaim from that era, you demonise now, because they don't voice you opinion.

Write this out 100 times: "My opinion may not be right. Let's hear what more informed people have to say"

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I have to admit, I took it as read that Kennaugh was talking about at training camp. That's the only sense I can make of his tweet. I can just about understand why a doctor would take weight each morning and then go and crunch numbers when the data of the riders comes in after their rides that day. And again, the next morn etc. And then give a report at the end of the week to the powers that be within the team. In that sense it just about makes sense, I think. But it's Leinders.. I know which side of the shoogly fence I fall on!

Personally would have thought Kerrison would be the go to man for that weighing job - given his penchant for number crunching, and the reasoning offered by Brailsford originally for Leinders hiring (saddle sores and 2010 Vuelta fiasco).

 

[thehog]

Ferrari is revered for his intelligence and understanding of training. It is logical that some riders receive training programs from him (not that I think that's the case).

Leinders is known by nothing else but for doping or to place a call to the UCI.

 

[Parker]

werent you supposed to be agnostic on whether or not sky dope?
showing your true colors.

No, I said that I don't know, as many of the more bumptious members here think they do. But I know where my money is.
Equally I don't know who will win the Chelsea v Hull game on Saturday. But I know where my money is.