Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

In a year, JTL went from being a complete nobody on the domestic scene to this.

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race.php?id=112032

But as you say, he was riding clean that day.

JTL was a solid junior and never wore sandshoes when riding He won some euro races as a junior before he got sick, hit the p!ss and the disco biscuits.

His pedigree was way beyond Froome.

 

[the sceptic]

No, they were being serious. JTL doping prior to april 2012 didn't fit their agenda so they rewrote history and hoped nobody would pick up on it.



Probably slightly more ridiculous as he was starting from a much, much lower level.

JTL is a doper and so is Froome, Wiggins, Hoy, Radcliffe and any other british athletes that makes you feel better about yourself.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

JTL is a doper and so is Froome, Wiggins, Hoy, Radcliffe and any other british athletes that makes you feel better about yourself.

Your point being?

 

[The Hitch]

The people who said it was inevitable that the British dopers name would come out still think that?

 

[burning]

For me, JTL's transformation is much more believeable than Froome's one, at least he looks great on a bike unlike Froome.

 

[pastronef]

For me, JTL's transformation is much more believeable than Froome's one, at least he looks great on a bike unlike Froome.

at least what?

are the two things related?
is a doper a better rider if he has a nice riding style?

 

[ralphbert]

is a doper a better rider if he has a nice riding style?

If you think of pro cycling as entertainment then yes, better style = better rider.

Contador, cancellara > Froome, Vockler.

Arrrg. Even typing Vockler makes me want to break stuff.

 

[pastronef]

If you think of pro cycling as entertainment then yes, better style = better rider.

Contador, cancellara > Froome, Vockler.

Arrrg. Even typing Vockler makes me want to break stuff.

if you think about Pro Cycling as entertainment, doping should not be taken into account

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

For me, JTL's transformation is much more believeable than Froome's one, at least he looks great on a bike unlike Froome.

Both are equally ridiculous. That's why I find it staggering that after 3 years of telling us how ludicrous Froome is, thehog and the sceptic are now telling us that JTL transformed clean.

 

[pastronef]

Both are equally ridiculous. That's why I find it staggering that after 3 years of telling us how ludicrous Froome is, thehog and the sceptic are now telling us that JTL transformed clean.

as Phil Gaimon says: some dopers are better than others

 

[burning]

if you think about Pro Cycling as entertainment, doping should not be taken into account

While I do not care about doping that much and even enjoy full *** performances, I think It is simply impossible to ignore doping completely unless you are jens_attacks.

Both are equally ridiculous. That's why I find it staggering that after 3 years of telling us how ludicrous Froome is, thehog and the sceptic are now telling us that JTL transformed clean.

They are trolling like usual. Even though both of them went from zero to hero, Froome's jump looks more extreme to me. At least JTL did not win world championship, even though he did really well at the highest level.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Forrgot to add two things. Somewhere in the back of my mind I have a DVD of a commentary where Rob Hayles is talking about professional punctures and spoke breakages. Apparently he is well versed in the black art but viewed Tom Southam as the ultimate - able to break a spoke at will, whenever convenient. I am pretty sure it was a BBC commentary with Hugh Porter, but it will take me time to look it out. I know I would have put it aside and not wiped it without putting it to DVD. I was shocked at the straight forward way he was describing his cheating. The guy is a professional wrestler every bit as much as his dad was.

Blackcat thanks for seconding me ! Mighty privileged !

 

[blackcat]

OK Blackcat explained it all to you in the post 29172. I will go for it once more in an uncomplicated way.

Person new to the sport or without informative infrastructure will fail the IQ (PED) test. Organisations with good numbers of experienced hands within a "successful" structure where all are incentivised to stay "clean", will share the knowledge necessary to defeat the test. There - that is the answer you need.

Then your wider question - why have Sky had an edge ? Perhaps this gives part of the reason. Ever since late 2004 BC have run their own in house blood profile program. It ran up until the advent of the application of the blood passport as a sanction free, information process. [The funding from UK Sport was put in place after the Millar/Brailsford fiasco, built on the fantasy that BC management and medical team would self-police and sanction the squad of riders if they detected any anomalies. So that would put it that not a single BC rider has given the cause for concern since early 2005] If a rider has been in the BC fold from this time and they were dabbling, that rider could gain plenty of experience of what the lag and lead times were for various "treatments" because sure as hell he was not going to find himself up before the beak. I don't know quite how Leinders managed the Rabo rider profiles but I think the BC blood profiling program was sector leading during its first years. Not all BC riders were profiled, but the ones that mattered to the management were.

I think you will find they were pretty confident about their mastery of the arts. Richard More, God bless his cotton socks, unearths a gem without spotting it in his book on Hoy. He writes about the morning in 2008 when Hayles is tested and is over 50%. Well, in the history of cycling there has never been a rider putting his hand up and saying "you know what - its a fair cop guv". So in the book we get the full, Sir David backs up R.H. spewogram. A tearful call to R.H.'s wife as Sir David drives R.H. home, is thrown in for icing on top, then we head back to the track to join the balance of the conquering heroes with business as usual. We get Chris Hoy doing his thing and then we go to Sir Wiggo. Strangely, something nasty has made Sir Bradley go a little off colour, all of a sudden. I just wonder quite what that could be that is causing this finely tuned athlete to start spewing up! (There but for the grace of God goes my career!) Of course he is soon over it and wins the pursuit.

BC have an inquiry and RH is newly found to have a naturally elevated haematocrit. Perhaps that came on during the early part of his career when he was riding all those 6 days in the late 90's. Learning his craft. No doubt helped by all those soigneurs.

Strangely Rob Hayles, despite being completely exonerated, never rode for GB again. National RR Champ in 2008 but did not get to go to Beijing. Just how mean was that !

Then, just to endorse the white-wash, and ensure any wavering blazers dipped their hands in the bowl, it was found that riders quite often had a higher haematocrit before an event than in the days after the event (I bet they do ! ) and there was some whacky rule change to allow for this. I bet Lance and Floyd were cursing - why couldn't USCycling come up with great rules like that, they could have been ahead with the charging before the start.

Rob Hayles had one or two seasons on Cofidis, circa 2000.

But British Cycling may have been paying 50% or 100% of his salary for Cofidis. I think that is how it worked, atleast i thought that is how it worked for the div@ Belgium team Cofidis Tonneisteiner (the spritzer/mineral water that was not gerolsteiner)

 

[oldcrank]

OK Blackcat explained it all to you in the post 29172. I will go for it once more in an uncomplicated way.

Person new to the sport or without informative infrastructure will fail the IQ (PED) test. Organisations with good numbers of experienced hands within a "successful" structure where all are incentivised to stay "clean", will share the knowledge necessary to defeat the test. There - that is the answer you need.

Then your wider question - why have Sky had an edge ? Perhaps this gives part of the reason. Ever since late 2004 BC have run their own in house blood profile program. It ran up until the advent of the application of the blood passport as a sanction free, information process. [The funding from UK Sport was put in place after the Millar/Brailsford fiasco, built on the fantasy that BC management and medical team would self-police and sanction the squad of riders if they detected any anomalies. So that would put it that not a single BC rider has given the cause for concern since early 2005] If a rider has been in the BC fold from this time and they were dabbling, that rider could gain plenty of experience of what the lag and lead times were for various "treatments" because sure as hell he was not going to find himself up before the beak. I don't know quite how Leinders managed the Rabo rider profiles but I think the BC blood profiling program was sector leading during its first years. Not all BC riders were profiled, but the ones that mattered to the management were.

I think you will find they were pretty confident about their mastery of the arts. Richard More, God bless his cotton socks, unearths a gem without spotting it in his book on Hoy. He writes about the morning in 2008 when Hayles is tested and is over 50%. Well, in the history of cycling there has never been a rider putting his hand up and saying "you know what - its a fair cop guv". So in the book we get the full, Sir David backs up R.H. spewogram. A tearful call to R.H.'s wife as Sir David drives R.H. home, is thrown in for icing on top, then we head back to the track to join the balance of the conquering heroes with business as usual. We get Chris Hoy doing his thing and then we go to Sir Wiggo. Strangely, something nasty has made Sir Bradley go a little off colour, all of a sudden. I just wonder quite what that could be that is causing this finely tuned athlete to start spewing up! (There but for the grace of God goes my career!) Of course he is soon over it and wins the pursuit.

BC have an inquiry and RH is newly found to have a naturally elevated haematocrit. Perhaps that came on during the early part of his career when he was riding all those 6 days in the late 90's. Learning his craft. No doubt helped by all those soigneurs.

Strangely Rob Hayles, despite being completely exonerated, never rode for GB again. National RR Champ in 2008 but did not get to go to Beijing. Just how mean was that !

Then, just to endorse the white-wash, and ensure any wavering blazers dipped their hands in the bowl, it was found that riders quite often had a higher haematocrit before an event than in the days after the event (I bet they do ! ) and there was some whacky rule change to allow for this. I bet Lance and Floyd were cursing - why couldn't USCycling come up with great rules like that, they could have been ahead with the charging before the start.

I noticed one (very easily verifiable) misstatement
of fact in your treatise, my friend.

 

[blackcat]

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/jonathan-vaughters-on-the-enigmatic-tom-danielson-64053

h
Tom Danielson in 20 per cent Eskimo in his heritage, and this probably contributes to what I can only describe as a uinique metabolism. He has a strong tendancy to store fat, not use it as fuel, if untrained.

You can see this in any photo of Tommy D. He can never get down to the vein popping five per cent fat you see in some riders. He just cannot do it, not matter how much he starves or trains. In addition, this metabolism tends to strongly favour sugar as fuel.

When Tom eats carbohydrate, his body wants to just use it up as fuel, then shut down, and store all the fat ingested as body mass. I suppose this is to protect against arctic winds, but it’s very difficult to work with in a cyclist. Not only does his body want to be chubby, naturally, it also gets the hunger knock very easily, as naturally, his body doesn’t like to use its fat stores as fuel. So, he’s a rider that has to eat a lot to keep from getting hunger flat, but gets fat, quite easily, from eating a lot. Tough.

lol, 20% in his heritage.

I think he must have been genetically engineered. I did not think you could be 20%!!!!

Garmin genetically engineering

try that on for size for your marginal gains

Hows them apples Sir Dave B?

 

[Benotti69]

lol, 20% in his heritage.

I think he must have been genetically engineered. I did not think you could be 20%!!!!

Garmin genetically engineering

try that on for size for your marginal gains

Hows them apples Sir Dave B?

The Mercury team hired him(TommyD) and when I saw that he won the 12 mile TT in the Estes Park Stage race by over 5 minutes over 2nd, I put him on the, for sure, cheater, cheater pumpkin eater team. It was done, he took drugs. I remember talking to a friend from Michigan, Tinker, the next year at the Iceman Cometh and he said he was training down in Arizona with Danielson about 2 weeks before he got really good. Everyone knew.

http://stevetilford.com/tag/tommy-d/

 

[blackcat]

I noticed one (very easily verifiable) misstatement
of fact in your treatise, my friend.

Hayles at Worlds? post 08?

 

[Catwhoorg]

They are trolling like usual. Even though both of them went from zero to hero, Froome's jump looks more extreme to me. At least JTL did not win world championship, even though he did really well at the highest level.

One does wonder what would have happened in this case had JTL hung on the climb and won the worlds.

 

[blackcat]

One does wonder what would have happened in this case had JTL hung on the climb and won the worlds.

remember Hamilton in 2002 (Hamilton, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, actually, think it was 2003, Zolder was 2002), where Mike Barry was off the front and attacking like no other. Was the MVP.

Like the Worlds that Evans won in Mendrisio Switzerland, Steve Cozza was throwing down attacks, with Kolobnev and Ballan and Spartacus. Great ride by the moustache'd one before all the hipsters and dov charney starting sporting moustaches.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

JTL was suspended at Sky.

There goes your theory I guess.

Wasn't JTL busted because his pre Sky blood readings were anomalous given the baseline subsequently established when he was tested more regularly whilst at Sky?

 

[wrinklyvet]

Wasn't JTL busted because his pre Sky blood readings were anomalous given the baseline subsequently established when he was tested more regularly whilst at Sky?

You are right about that.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Brad was on the fringes of it all. He had won Olympic gold and found out like Boardman before, that this didn't make him rich and so went and lived in the boozer. He was out of it. No future. Undoubtedly his father's end was a vivid signpost to the choices that lay ahead. Brailsford dried him out and like Keen before him, Brailsford had plenty to gain and little to lose, so reinforced the stark choices ahead and gave him a vision of how Wiggo (and Sir David) could make money from this seriously scr**ed up sport. Wiggo went full *** and the rest is history.

For Radcliffe it was the same. At the 93 World Championships she had a 7th; 5th in 95. At the Olympics in 1996 it was a 5th as well. The World Champs in 97 and the CG in 98 brought no spoils. This career was going to end with none of the riches, the Monaco life style, the hobnobbing with "stars" of the day - "look mummy who is that alongside the gallant knight Sir Chris, close by Sir David ?" I don't know about the relationship with her husband but it draws comment elsewhere. Was he taking the role of a Brailsford or Keen, "WE have put X years into this and all you have to do now is ....." You can decide if in 1999, after 6 years of getting her teeth kicked in, Radcliffe found the precursor of "marginal gains" and was able to fine tune her training regime so that she went from "plucky Brit loser" to fastest ever, ever, in the history of humankind, just at a time when epo usage was at its most epic.

Freddy,

I'm not questioning your overall conclusions, for as Father In Law says about investments, "If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is."

However, your timetable of events for Sir Brad and PR don't seem quite right. (It could be that I've misinterpreted your post.)

Wiggo's post Olympics bender was after Athens in the winter of 2004-2005 whereas his Dad died in early 2008, by which time he'd had a couple of kids, won the World Champs again and was gunning for Beijing. Wiggo also was at pretty much the same level in the IP in 2008 as he was in 2004, as demonstrated by his times in the OGs each year. (His efforts were clustered in the 4:15-4:18 range across both Games). Post Beijing in 2008 there's no suggestion that Wiggo went and lived in the pub - he went straight into whatever preparation he did for the 2009 Tour.

So there's no logical connection between all of i) the death of his father, ii) being dried out after post Olympic depression and ii) going "Full ***". If a decision to go "Full ***" was made, it was made in the cool and sober light of day post Beijing. (Unless he soft-pedalled during competitions in 2005-2008 and only unleashed the Full *** form from the gym in 2009.)

Re Radcliffe, her big jump in performance levels came in 2002 (30:27 to 30:01 in the 10k) but she was only 28 in 2002, so the improvement from her 1999 previous PB isn't overly suspicious in relative terms. There's no indication that anything that happened in 1999 triggered anything doping-wise, as the 2000 OGs and the 2001 WCs saw the usual story play out - PR grinds down most but not all of her rivals and then gets outsprinted for the medals.

Her major successes came on the road in 2002 and later, but these were events she didn't race seriously before this year, so there's no easy way to compare her 2002 and onwards performance levels in the Marathon to her pre 2002 performances. She didn't race on the track in major competitions after 2002, so it's hard to compare track performances "pre and post" as well.

Finally I'm intrigued as to why you attribute such an unlikely quote to PR's children, who, let's not forget, are aged 7 and 4. There's more chance of PR's marathon record being genuine than there is of kids this age saying "Look mummy who is that alongside the gallant knight Sir Chris, close by Sir David ?" Is there any particular reason why you felt the need to taint your otherwise thoughtful post with what is clearly bullsh*t?

 

[thehog]

Wasn't JTL busted because his pre Sky blood readings were anomalous given the baseline subsequently established when he was tested more regularly whilst at Sky?

What pre-Sky blood readings? There were none.

Only one test when he was riding with BC / training with Sky at the worlds.

 

[wrinklyvet]

What pre-Sky blood readings? There were none.

Only one test when he was riding with BC / training with Sky at the worlds.

That sounds to me as if he was not, at the time, a Sky rider, whether he had been training with them or not.

What Wallace and Gromit said was absolutely correct.

Also, the results of which he was stripped were those that were achieved pre-Sky. There can be no argument about the fact that he was riding for Endura Racing before his Sky contract, announced in October 2012 for the 2013 season.

Not that it makes it look any better for JTL, of course.

 

[thehog]

That sounds to me as if he was not, at the time, a Sky rider, whether he had been training with them or not.

What Wallace and Gromit said was absolutely correct.

Also, the results of which he was stripped were those that were achieved pre-Sky. There can be no argument about the fact that he was riding for Endura Racing before his Sky contract, announced in October 2012 for the 2013 season.

Not that it makes it look any better for JTL, of course.

He had signed with them based on the letter of intent from April that year. He was training with them and using a Sky power meter at the Worlds. He went for Sky testing two days after the WC in Manchester.

Looks like a Sky rider to me.

Based on evidence alone we can alone conclude he was doping with BC at the Worlds which was stripped.

Best sticking with the facts.