Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[samhocking]

~85% of total energy is produced via aerobic metabolism for an individual pursuit and ~15% coming from anaerobic sources. It is not surprising therefore that elite pursuiters often resemble those of elite road time-trialists. For Wiggins to win the Tour de France, you are simply getting him to produce 450 watts for 10 minutes weighing 72kg instead of his IP weight of 78, the gain in performance is going to be considerable. Enough, to put him in the front group on the climbs. Where does that 6kg come off from without reducing watts? Where all individual pursuiters have more muscle mass than GT riders and that's the upper body over the winter. That's all Vaughters/Garmin sparked and Sky tweaked.

 

[42x16ss]

Why is that astonishing ignorance when talking about a team leader in the tour (or any GT)? Would they put their leader out front day after day, or would they protect him in the peloton as the domestiques that they were? Everyone knows that in the vacuum that is the peloton you use a lot less energy, so I don't think its ridiculous to claim what TWH is saying. A tour contender doesn't need to go full gas for most of the race - just at certain times.

Maybe, but overall they still work as hard as anyone throughout the race. Why? They can't switch off.

A serious GC leader needs to make every split, know where his opponents are, when they are moving, when they're attacking, where they are on the parcours, where their domestiques are, how far until the next climb etc.

In the middle of 190+ riders, all shoulder to shoulder, this is very draining. That's before you add crashes, riders moving up and down the bunch, people trying to get into the break. Racing is intense! It's not like a cruisey spin along the coast with your mates.

 

[red_flanders]

There is no difference proof is a synonym of evidence.

This is either mind-blowing ignorance or full blown trolling.

 

[42x16ss]

This is either mind-blowing ignorance or full blown trolling.

 

[Parker]

A serious GC leader needs to make every split, know where his opponents are, when they are moving, when they're attacking, where they are on the parcours, where their domestiques are, how far until the next climb etc.

They've got race radio for all of that. It's not particularly difficult. These are experienced pros.

And no GC rider is going to attack on a flat stage (cobbles aside) and as long as you stay in the first third of the peloton with a couple of teammates splits shouldn't be a problem. Even on GC stages if the attack comes before the final climb there's plenty of time to react.

Grand Tours typically last about 80-90 hours. For how much of that do you think the GC riders ride at approaching threshold power (say over 85%). 10% maybe? I don't know, but it's not a lot.

 

[thehog]

Why is that astonishing ignorance when talking about a team leader in the tour (or any GT)? Would they put their leader out front day after day, or would they protect him in the peloton as the domestiques that they were? Everyone knows that in the vacuum that is the peloton you use a lot less energy, so I don't think its ridiculous to claim what TWH is saying. A tour contender doesn't need to go full gas for most of the race - just at certain times.

Just at certain times? Hmmm... but those certain times are unpredictable. And its not "just at", it could be anytime and/or "all the time". That's why a GT contender must always be at the front, aware of what's going around them and be on guard not to be caught out in echelons or splits in the peloton.

Its a fairly ridiculous claim made by TWH. Most likely just trolling IMHO.

 

[42x16ss]

They've got race radio for all of that. It's not particularly difficult. These are experienced pros.

And no GC rider is going to attack on a flat stage (cobbles aside) and as long as you stay in the first third of the peloton with a couple of teammates splits shouldn't be a problem. Even on GC stages if the attack comes before the final climb there's plenty of time to react.

Grand Tours typically last about 80-90 hours. For how much of that do you think the GC riders ride at approaching threshold power (say over 85%). 10% maybe? I don't know, but it's not a lot.

I'll tell you what.

This summer, go out and ride for 3 hours every day, for 3 weeks straight. Not hard, just spin your legs at around 85-90 rpm with a relaxed heart rate of around 110-120 bpm. Ignore your speed, just roll your legs over.

Then come back and say that the bulk of a Grand Tour is not particularly difficult

 

[mortand]

Grand Tours typically last about 80-90 hours. For how much of that do you think the GC riders ride at approaching threshold power (say over 85%). 10% maybe? I don't know, but it's not a lot.

10% is way too much. More like 1%. Most of the time, it's the team leaders' stunt doubles who are on the bikes. The actual team leaders are on their hotels playing Fifa or ranting on Twitter.

 

[thehog]

And no GC rider is going to attack on a flat stage (cobbles aside) .

Nibali attacked on a Stage 2 this year to gain time and the yellow jersey.

From memory he's a GC rider

 

[mortand]

From memory, stage 2 wasn't exactly a flat stage, was it?

 

[Parker]

I'll tell you what.

This summer, go out and ride for 3 hours every day, for 3 weeks straight. Not hard, just spin your legs at around 85-90 rpm with a relaxed heart rate of around 110-120 bpm. Ignore your speed, just roll your legs over.

Then come back and say that the bulk of a Grand Tour is not particularly difficult

But I'm not an elite quality cyclist, am I?

There are things that I do in my job that look difficult, and are for an outsider, but I find pretty straightforward.

 

[thehog]

From memory, stage 2 wasn't exactly a flat stage, was it?

193km of flat, a short hill at 59km to go and another at 7km then Nibali attacked on the flat section with 2km remaining.

But according to Parker GC riders "never" attack on the flat stages

Or like 2009 when Armstrong & Co. gained on the flat on Contador. From memory they are GC contenders.

I do wonder is Parker has actually ridden a bike.

 

[Parker]

Nibali attacked on a Stage 2 this year to gain time and the yellow jersey.

From memory he's a GC rider

Yeah, about 2k from the finish. I don't think the GC riders were on high alert for the full 200km.

 

[thehog]

Yeah, about 2k from the finish. I don't think the GC riders were on high alert for the full 200km.

Contador and Rogers attacked Froome on a flat stage 2013 with 28km to go. And gained time.

But GC riders never attack on flat stages

Sign up for one of these bike rides so you can learn a little bit about what happens on the open roads

 

[Parker]

Or like 2009 when Armstrong & Co. gained on the flat on Contador. From memory they are GC contenders.

That wasn't an attack. It was an upping of pace (by HTC not Armstrong) causing echelons (which everyone was aware was a possibility but are generally pretty rare)

Contador and Rogers attacked Froome on a flat stage 2013 with 28km to go. And gained time.

That's an echelon again. Not an attack.

 

[thehog]

Upping of the pace?

I see. Moving the goal posts.... (again). Any other selective qualifiers you want to add to your paltry argument?

Upping of the pace. LOL! So the GC riders don't need to be guard when "Upping of the pace" occurs

 

[Parker]

Upping of the pace. LOL! So the GC riders don't need to be guard when "Upping of the pace" occurs

You must have missed this

and as long as you stay in the first third of the peloton with a couple of teammates splits shouldn't be a problem.

Echelon stages are rare but easily predicted so a little extra vigilance would be advised.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And no GC rider is going to attack on a flat stage (cobbles aside) and as long as you stay in the first third of the peloton with a couple of teammates splits shouldn't be a problem. Even on GC stages if the attack comes before the final climb there's plenty of time to react.

1 Filippo Pozzato ITA KAT 5'15'50
2 Thomas Voeckler FRA BTL +mt
3 Jérôme Pineau FRA QST +mt
4 Stefano Garzelli ITA ASA +mt
5 Alexandre Vinokourov KAZ AST +mt
6 Vincenzo Nibali ITA LIQ +mt
7 Marco Pinotti ITA THR +mt
8 Michele Scarponi ITA AND +mt
9 Damiano Cunego ITA LAM +mt
10 Ivan Basso ITA LIQ +mt

10 man breakaway. This was the day Cadel Evans started punching Daniele Righi.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

10% is way too much. More like 1%. Most of the time, it's the team leaders' stunt doubles who are on the bikes. The actual team leaders are on their hotels playing Fifa or ranting on Twitter.

Less than 1 hour at threshold?

Good grief.

Wiggo's final TT was 6.4W/kg for 63 minutes.

Each 30 minute climb was threshold. That's .5% for each climb.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'll tell you what.

This summer, go out and ride for 3 hours every day, for 3 weeks straight. Not hard, just spin your legs at around 85-90 rpm with a relaxed heart rate of around 110-120 bpm. Ignore your speed, just roll your legs over.

Then come back and say that the bulk of a Grand Tour is not particularly difficult

You are talking with someone who has never raced. Or possibly even ridden a hard group ride with Basque riders in the group ;-)

 

[thehog]

You must have missed this



Echelon stages are rare but easily predicted so a little extra vigilance would be advised.

No. You missed the point completely. A little "extra vigilance". Where are you going to move the goalposts next? This is botlogic at its finest.

Enjoy the local Skyride LOL!

 

[MatParker117]

I'm going to put this to bed once and for all.

proof noun (SHOWING TRUTH)

B2 [C or U] a fact or piece of information that shows that something exists or is true

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/proof_1



evidence noun uk /ˈev.ɪ.dəns/ us

B2 one or more reasons for believing that something is or is not true

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/evidence

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english-thesaurus/evidence

Synonyms of evidence in English:
NOUN

1 they found evidence of his participation in the burglary
proof, confirmation, verification, substantiation, corroboration, affirmation, authentication, attestation, documentation;
support for, backing for, reinforcement for, grounds for

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Now go look up the meaning for synonym.

Evidence and proof are not the same. They are similar. But not the same.

One is a harder, irrefutable version of the other.

 

[Parker]

1 Filippo Pozzato ITA KAT 5'15'50
2 Thomas Voeckler FRA BTL +mt
3 Jérôme Pineau FRA QST +mt
4 Stefano Garzelli ITA ASA +mt
5 Alexandre Vinokourov KAZ AST +mt
6 Vincenzo Nibali ITA LIQ +mt
7 Marco Pinotti ITA THR +mt
8 Michele Scarponi ITA AND +mt
9 Damiano Cunego ITA LAM +mt
10 Ivan Basso ITA LIQ +mt

10 man breakaway. This was the day Cadel Evans started punching Daniele Righi.

Yes they attacked on the climb near the end - so the finale is flat - and even then they only got 10 seconds. I didn't say that they can doze off completely, but there was unlikely to be a GC rider attacking in the first 190km of that race. It's still a rarity though.

Can you find an example of a GC rider attacking on a flat part of a flat stage? (Fignon & Mottet in 1989 I remember trying it)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes they attacked on the climb near the end - so the finale is flat - and even then they only got 10 seconds. I didn't say that they can doze off completely, but there was unlikely to be a GC rider attacking in the first 190km of that race.
Can you find an example of a GC rider attacking on a flat part of a flat stage? (Fignon & Mottet in 1989 I remember trying it)

Vino, Champs Elysées 2005 perhaps? Was quite close to the finish (the second time at least) but there were time bonuses back then which made it more worthwhile.

Of course, looking back on it we can say Pereiro 2006, but that was just being in the break that got to go, and turned him into a GC contender, he wasn't one before that, in 2006 at least.

Presume having disqualified the cobbles stages the sterrato shouldn't count either. Did anybody attack into Middelburg? I know some elite groups formed at the front with people like Evans and Vino in them but I think they were formed by crashes and echelons.

Vino's attack into Revel in 2010 was on the small climb if I remember correctly. I assume you will similarly disqualify Nibali/Agnoli/Sagan/Lastras getting away on the descent into Córdoba in 2011.

The thing is, of course, with things like echelons, the GT contender doesn't necessarily need to attack on the flat; if anything, in the crosswinds, that would be the stupid thing to do, the best thing is to drill it on the front with their team and try to break others. Being extra vigilant there IS very much part of putting pressure on others in a flat stage and trying to gain time. Like, which Belkin domestique was it who caught an earful from Froome about why his team weren't working in that 2013 stage, only to give the answer "because our guys are at the front"?