Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[samhocking]

So why didn't Sky just go to the same doctor British Cycling used for all their Olympic & Worlds success? I mean the track success far outweighs the period of Team Sky's 3:1 and the rise in performance equally impressive? I mean that success is 15 years old now.

 

[TailWindHome]

A Team Sky spokesperson responded to Cyclingnews’ request for a comment with a statement: “We welcome this decision which relates to Dr Leinders' time at Rabobank. As is well known Dr Leinders did work at Team Sky on a freelance basis for a short period. Although nothing improper happened during his time at Team Sky we have acknowledged many times that it was a mistake to hire him. We would never have done so had we had any suspicions or knowledge of his past and we have reviewed our recruitment processes and checks as a result.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sky...n=Feed:+cyclingnews/news+(Cyclingnews:+News+)

 

[deeno1975]

So why didn't Sky just go to the same doctor British Cycling used for all their Olympic & Worlds success? I mean the track success far outweighs the period of Team Sky's 3:1 and the rise in performance equally impressive? I mean that success is 15 years old now.

Lack of saddle sores expertise apparently.

 

[neineinei]

The story was that Sky needed someone to take care of saddle sores and see to staff not dying from sepsis. This was something beyond docs out of Manchester.

 

[samhocking]

The story was that Sky needed someone to take care of saddle sores and see to staff not dying from sepsis. This was something beyond docs out of Manchester.

And British Cycling winning World Road Championship in 2008? Leinders was still at Rabobank then.

What i'm saying, is Leinders is not a smoking gun, because it doesn't match the success of British Cycling & Team Sky. You guys are either chasing the wrong dog, or Brailsford is so smart Leinders is a smokescreen for the 'new Ferrari' who's been working alongside him for 15 years of continued success. Who is it?

 

[neineinei]

However, Team Sky have a zero tolerance policy on doping.
Brailsford admits that he could be called naive to have not asked further questions when he first employed Leinders in late 2010. That Rabobank team was famous for one particular rider, Michael Rasmussen, who was leading the Tour in 2007 when, four stages from the end, he was kicked off the race because of doping offences.
Brailsford said yesterday: “Does that imply he [Leinders] is doping? That’s nothing against him specifically. Call me naive, call me what you want.” Brailsford explained that Sky had employed Leinders in extreme circumstances after the Vuelta in 2010. Sky had initially made it their policy to employ only medical staff who were British and who had no history in professional cycling, as part of an effort to make a concerted break from the sport’s dirty past.
On that Vuelta, however, many riders suffered from vomiting and the team withdrew after the death of one of the soigneurs, Txema Gonzalez, from a virus. Brailsford said: “We had all these riders sick going: ‘What is going on? This isn’t good enough.’ And you think: ‘We’re putting these guys at risk here.’ We sat down afterwards and we said: ‘We do not know enough about looking after people in extreme heat and extreme fatigue.’ ”
It was soon afterwards that Brailsford decided that his principles were no longer workable. “We needed some experience,” he said. “That’s why we decided to go and get him. Has he been a good doctor? Brilliant. The guy really understands. It’s not about doping, it’s about genuine medical practice.”

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/cycling/article3471868.ece (paywall)

 

[the sceptic]

And British Cycling winning World Road Championship in 2008? Leinders was still at Rabobank then.

What i'm saying, is Leinders is not a smoking gun, because it doesn't match the success of British Cycling & Team Sky. You guys are either chasing the wrong dog, or Brailsford is so smart Leinders is a smokescreen for the 'new Ferrari' who's been working alongside him for 15 years of continued success. Who is it?

thanks Joachum.

 

[ray j willings]

"We would never have done so had we had any suspicions or knowledge of his past and we have reviewed our recruitment processes and checks as a result.”

That is without doubt a full loaded space shuttle of Kak.

A team that hire some of the most experienced staff members had no idea who Leinders was.

before my ban [ never given a reason for my ban] I posted this question on the BR forum.
Why would a professional team who cover every angle, forget to check the CV of a Dr who looks after the health and well being of the riders.

No one could come up with a decent reply because there is not one.

Sky knew what they were doing in hiring Leinders and the results prove that.
Pre Leinders they were a joke. They still are a joke just in a different way

 

[neineinei]

And British Cycling winning World Road Championship in 2008? Leinders was still at Rabobank then.

What i'm saying, is Leinders is not a smoking gun, because it doesn't match the success of British Cycling & Team Sky. You guys are either chasing the wrong dog, or Brailsford is so smart Leinders is a smokescreen for the 'new Ferrari' who's been working alongside him for 15 years of continued success. Who is it?

Are you saying Sky was a success from the start?

 

[bobbins]

The pro team was a Dave B dictatorship. BC had more people who would ask pertinent questions, especially relating to the employment of a dodgy doctor.

BC have to get results and be squeaky clean. Absolutely clean as the lottery millions are in risk if anything dodgy happens and a whole building full of people with jobs that they would lose would be hard to fool if you employed a dodgy doctor.

The pro team were told to get results. Brad was told to be more professional. Leinders was hired with full knowledge of BSkyB. Dave B and his magic list of which riders were good at what and who to recruit having spent a year on the road following the pro tour knew pro cycling inside out and anyone that suggests he knew nothing about Barry, Julich, Flecha, Rogers, Yates or indeed Leinders is in cloud cuckoo land. Indeed, a few years before the team Dave B was boasting about knowing Rogers was dodgy. He told Sky that he wouldn't employ Ballan as he knew he was dodgy yet claims innocence with Leinders. Believe that and you're an idiot.

 

[samhocking]

"
Pre Leinders they were a joke. They still are a joke just in a different way

That is clearly not the case.
2008 World Road Champions under Brailsford for both Men & Womens, 8 Olympic gold, 4 Silver and 2 bronze medals on track, 9 golds at World Track Championships

Leinders still at Rabobank!

 

[red_flanders]

The pro team was a Dave B dictatorship. BC had more people who would ask pertinent questions, especially relating to the employment of a dodgy doctor.

BC have to get results and be squeaky clean. Absolutely clean as the lottery millions are in risk if anything dodgy happens and a whole building full of people with jobs that they would lose would be hard to fool if you employed a dodgy doctor.

The pro team were told to get results. Brad was told to be more professional. Leinders was hired with full knowledge of BSkyB. Dave B and his magic list of which riders were good at what and who to recruit having spent a year on the road following the pro tour knew pro cycling inside out and anyone that suggests he knew nothing about Barry, Julich, Flecha, Rogers, Yates or indeed Leinders is in cloud cuckoo land. Indeed, a few years before the team Dave B was boasting about knowing Rogers was dodgy. He told Sky that he wouldn't employ Ballan as he knew he was dodgy yet claims innocence with Leinders. Believe that and you're an idiot.

Someone gets it. Great post.

 

[MagniflexOlmo]

... and I think the "he was just consultant" bit was covered quite a while back when accounts revealed that Sky has virtually no "employees". i.e. They're all either consultants, or (more probably) companies (based in tax havens).

 

[markene2]

That is clearly not the case.
2008 World Road Champions under Brailsford for both Men & Womens, 8 Olympic gold, 4 Silver and 2 bronze medals on track, 9 golds at World Track Championships

Leinders still at Rabobank!

Bbb..but they had results on track, see!!! Leinders had nothing to do with that, i sure told him there!

 

[DirtyWorks]

That is clearly not the case.
2008 World Road Champions under Brailsford for both Men & Womens, 8 Olympic gold, 4 Silver and 2 bronze medals on track, 9 golds at World Track Championships

Leinders still at Rabobank!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_UCI_Road_World_Championships

One gold, Nicole Cooke. Good job.

And then you shift to the Olympics 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics

Nicole Cooke, road race gold
Emma Pooley, road TT silver
The rest of the podiums were in track. And you know how many riders seamlessly transition from track to road domination. The history of cycling is full of them! Or not.

Great job.

 

[samhocking]

Bbb..but they had results on track, see!!! Leinders had nothing to do with that, i sure told him there!

And double world road champions? I guess they were just lucky to do it without Leinders lol!

 

[thehog]

Since Ferrari was banned he's continued to work. Leinders no doubt is still "consulting'.

 

[Benotti69]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_UCI_Road_World_Championships

One gold, Nicole Cooke. Good job.

And then you shift to the Olympics 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics

Nicole Cooke, road race gold
Emma Pooley, road TT silver
The rest of the podiums were in track. And you know how many riders seamlessly transition from track to road domination. The history of cycling is full of them! Or not.

Great job.

Nicole Cooke and Emma Pooley were ignored by TeamBG/BC. Well documented they did their own thing. So Brailsfod cannot take credit for Cooke and Pooley as they were wearing Brit Colours but very much on their own.

 

[RiccoDinko]

Team Sky was "utterly unaware of his doping past" Yeah sure, screw the bunch of liars!

 

[samhocking]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_UCI_Road_World_Championships

One gold, Nicole Cooke. Good job.

And then you shift to the Olympics 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics

Nicole Cooke, road race gold
Emma Pooley, road TT silver
The rest of the podiums were in track. And you know how many riders seamlessly transition from track to road domination. The history of cycling is full of them! Or not.

Great job.

OK, 2011 for Cav while not riding for Sky, it doesn't change my argument one jot. In fact strengthens it.
To imply Cav was being doped by a Sky Dr while riding for another team to win Worlds is stretching it.

 

[D-Queued]

... Brailsford... "... The guy really understands. It’s not about doping, it’s about genuine medical practice.” http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/cycling/article3471868.ece (paywall)

They found their answer!



Or, as they say, ROTFLMAO

Dave.

 

[samhocking]

My argument to anyone is this:

Brailsford said before Team Sky was even launched back in 2008/2009, that he wanted to win the tour clean and with a British rider inside 5 years.

Everyone said at the time you're mad, it can't be done clean, letalone with a British rider - the road is nothing like track, 'marginal gains' don't apply to the road it's too random with too many variables, you're crazy!

His argument back to the doubters, was "Well we did it on the track - Went from 0 to best in the World and what we learnt there in terms of sports performance and marginal gains can be applied to the road too.

So, my point, is the approach at Sky on the road is the same as British Cycling on the track. Marginal gains said to be the reason for success from the very beginning for both. Same facilities, share staff, doctors, knowledge etc.

Now, if you believe 'marginal gains' is simply marketing speak for 'doping', then you also believe what Brailsford talks about in 2008/9 is it's doping learnt on the track that can be applied to the road too. BC were winning plenty in 2004/2008 Olympics too, so who was doping them. It certainly wasn't Leinders was it, unless he was doing some Freelance for Brailsford while in the Rabobank bus!

So, why appoint Leinders on doping duty for 2010 at Sky, when clearly the marginal gains (doping) was already working perfectly fine for a decade on the Track ever since Queally, Boardman, Wiggins & Keen found a light switch and saw the light and BC went into overdrive?

My argument is, there must be another Dr or Doping expert behind British Cycling's success and Team Sky's success because the two are simply two sides of Brailsford's magic coin whether you believe doping or marginal gains, the story with Sky's success begins 10 years before we know Leinders was hired.

 

[Digger]

My argument to anyone is this:

Brailsford said before Team Sky was even launched back in 2008/2009, that he wanted to win the tour clean and with a British rider inside 5 years.

Everyone said at the time you're mad, it can't be done clean, letalone with a British rider - the road is nothing like track, 'marginal gains' don't apply to the road it's too random with too many variables, you're crazy!

His argument back to the doubters, was "Well we did it on the track - Went from 0 to best in the World and what we learnt there in terms of sports performance and marginal gains can be applied to the road too.

So, my point, is the approach at Sky on the road is the same as British Cycling on the track. Marginal gains said to be the reason for success from the very beginning for both. Same facilities, share staff, doctors, knowledge etc.

Now, if you believe 'marginal gains' is simply marketing speak for 'doping', then you also believe what Brailsford talks about in 2008/9 is it's doping learnt on the track that can be applied to the road too. BC were winning plenty in 2004/2008 Olympics too, so who was doping them. It certainly wasn't Leinders was it, unless he was doing some Freelance for Brailsford while in the Rabobank bus!

So, why appoint Leinders on doping duty for 2010 at Sky, when clearly the marginal gains (doping) was already working perfectly fine for a decade on the Track ever since Queally, Boardman, Wiggins & Keen found a light switch and saw the light and BC went into overdrive?

My argument is, there must be another Dr or Doping expert behind British Cycling's success and Team Sky's success because the two are simply two sides of Brailsford's magic coin whether you believe doping or marginal gains, the story with Sky's success begins 10 years before we know Leinders was hired.

Your 'argument' falls down when we see that Boardman was named as doping with EPO in a book...and secondly, and more importantly, anyone who thinks the talent pool for track cycling is even remotely similar to road cycling, is on another planet...as evidenced by guys like Wiggins riding Grupetto.

 

[Aapjes]

Perhaps Leinders was hired at Sky for a second opinion and even more likely, for his contacts with Zorzoli. He would have been worth the money just for the latter.

 

[samhocking]

Your 'argument' falls down when we see that Boardman was named as doping with EPO in a book...and secondly, and more importantly, anyone who thinks the talent pool for track cycling is even remotely similar to road cycling, is on another planet...as evidenced by guys like Wiggins riding Grupetto.

So are you saying marginal gains on the track for the British & Brailsford is simply finding better riders than other nations? I mean BC hadn't won a thing on the track before?

You clearly don't remember Boardman being blown off the back on every single hill on the road? Must have been quality EPO in the book : )