Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Rapha made a fortune.

Could someone help me here and quantify what a fortune is in this case? Is a fortune here a couple of hundred thousand pounds or is it millions of pounds? Just how much money do people think the Sky deal made for Rapha and what impact do you think it's had on their bottom line?

Well Rapha's turnover was £37M last year and they sold just over £4M in team sky replica kit, so maybe £1-2M profit just off the sky kit sales. However the whole team team gets through 64,000 items of clothing per season I remember reading, so I guess kit sales pay to keep the team in rapha kit each year. I don't know of Rapha actually sponsor the team with money though. I doubt it. It's probably simply a partnership.

I remember reading an interview with Simon Mottram saying supplying kit to Sky wouldn't transfer into clothing sales directly and make the company money, simply because Rapha is on Froome's collar, but what it does do, is allow Rapha to build the story (brand) and in terms of marketing, that's pretty much how they have built up 30% increase in sales each year since they began.

Rapha have big investments in other areas to bring Rapha more into everyday clothing and Asia etc, so pretty sure Rapha & Sky is probably not really going to help sales of a pair of jeans to a kid in China who isn't a pro cycling fan anyway and would never see or even know it was Rapha lycra he was looking at.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Sky

Lionel Messi gifted a Dogma by Dave and Fausto..

The 28-year-old was apparently very taken with the bike’s electronic Shimano Di2 gearing, and was also keen to learn about the bike’s technical aspects as well as finding out how Team Sky go about their training.

Aren't we all Lionel, aren't we all.

Even the great Messi could learn from Team Sky and their amazing experience and knowledge.

Specifically old heads like Jullich, Yates, Sutton, Ellingworth. Their experiences and techniques in evading the authorities on doping for decades, could prove extremely valuable to messi in his current tax fraud case.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Sky

Lionel Messi gifted a Dogma by Dave and Fausto..

The 28-year-old was apparently very taken with the bike’s electronic Shimano Di2 gearing, and was also keen to learn about the bike’s technical aspects as well as finding out how Team Sky go about their training.

Aren't we all Lionel, aren't we all.

Even the great Messi could learn from Team Sky and their amazing experience and knowledge.

Specifically old heads like Jullich, Yates, Sutton, Ellingworth. Their experiences and techniques in evading the authorities on doping for decades, could prove extremely valuable to messi in his current tax fraud case.

visions of ellingworth ripping up maradona's autobiography

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Well Rapha's turnover was £37M last year and they sold just over £4M in team sky replica kit, so maybe £1-2M profit just off the sky kit sales.

Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2013 £699.5k
Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2014 £605.7k
Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2015 £507.9k

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Well Rapha's turnover was £37M last year and they sold just over £4M in team sky replica kit, so maybe £1-2M profit just off the sky kit sales.

Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2013 £699.5k
Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2014 £605.7k
Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2015 £507.9k

11% of their £37M turnover was from Sky Kit sales. Of course the profit is invested back into growing the company otherwise how do you think they grow by 30%. You can't grow if you don't spend your profits.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

11% of their £37M turnover was from Sky Kit sales.

Source?

 

[samhocking]

http://www.businessoffashion.com/articles/intelligence/wheels-of-fortune

The company's Team Sky replica kit, which launched in January, already makes up a sizable 11 percent of Rapha's overall sales.

 

[Arrowfarm]

I just watched a documentary about the danish national football team in the 1986 world championships in Mexico.
It seems they brought their own pillows . Marginal gains a few decades before sky invented it... I actually laughed out loud.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

I just watched a documentary about the danish national football team in the 1986 world championships in Mexico.
It seems they brought their own pillows . Marginal gains a few decades before sky invented it... I actually laughed out loud.

1980. Tony Doyle rode the Wembley Six. He took his own mattress with him.

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

Well Rapha's turnover was £37M last year and they sold just over £4M in team sky replica kit, so maybe £1-2M profit just off the sky kit sales.

Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2013 £699.5k
Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2014 £605.7k
Rapha's profit in yr to Feb 2015 £507.9k

11% of their £37M turnover was from Sky Kit sales. Of course the profit is invested back into growing the company otherwise how do you think they grow by 30%. You can't grow if you don't spend your profits.

Retained profit for re-investment is shown in company accounts still as profit

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Retained profit for re-investment is shown in company accounts still as profit

So speaks an eminent accountant...

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

Retained profit for re-investment is shown in company accounts still as profit

So speaks an eminent accountant...

Why are you trolling me when you obviously know next to nothing about me, nor probably the subject judging by your comment? A sarcastic comment that adds nothing to the discussion

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Why are you trolling me when you obviously know next to nothing about me, nor probably the subject judging by your comment? A sarcastic comment that adds nothing to the discussion

Perhaps you would like to explain what - if anything - you think your original comment means in relation to the comments it replied to.

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

Why are you trolling me when you obviously know next to nothing about me, nor probably the subject judging by your comment? A sarcastic comment that adds nothing to the discussion

Perhaps you would like to explain what - if anything - you think your original comment means in relation to the comments it replied to.

If you don't understand the subject matter why don't you just ask instead of posting a sarcastic comment? You and others were discussing/arguing about the amount of profit made by Rapha. You produced figures, correct or not, that were apparently argued with by samhocking because he apparaently considered them too low, his argument being that profits were reinvested and hence not shown. Profit retained for future investment is shown in annual profit statements so would be in the figures you quoted anyway, assuming they were correct.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

If you don't understand the subject matter why don't you just ask instead of posting a sarcastic comment? You and others were discussing/arguing about the amount of profit made by Rapha. You produced figures, correct or not, that were apparently argued with by samhocking because he apparaently considered them too low, his argument being that profits were reinvested and hence not shown. Profit retained for future investment is shown in annual profit statements so would be in the figures you quoted anyway, assuming they were correct.

As I said, eminent accountant.

Neither samhocking nor I dispute that Rapha's profits are lowered by the investments being made in their current expansion. Further, it is entirely possible - especially if the figure of 11% of turnover in the first six months of the Sky deal is true for the full year - that the gross profit being made on the Sky deal alone is in excess of the company's overall bottom line. (And if you doubt the figures I posted please do post the figures you think are accurate).

 

[samhocking]

The rate Rapha are growing in Asia with shops popping up all over the place, you can be sure those profits weren't retained lol!
Remember the Sky kits extends far beyond just actual team kit itself. There's 44 items of sky kit from socks to umbrellas, bags, belts etc etc etc, that's where the money is, especially for non-cycling cycling fans

To be honest, Rapha simply rode the British Cycling Beijing boom, Cavendish Worlds and then an even bigger wave came along with London 2012 and Wiggins Tour de France. Right place right time making kit, non-racing, even non-cycling, new generation cycling fans with decent jobs could afford and wanted to spend their disposable income on to be part of the British Cycling story books.
When Sky came along for Rapha, it was the perfect storm for their marketing strategy of marketing clothes through story-telling the Rapha brand into a 'fabricated' Rapha-styles cycling tale that non-cycling fans could relate to that don't know much about real cycling tradition and it's history. Rapha basically told them the story and sold kit off it. That's their marketing strategy and it works bl88dy well!

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

If you don't understand the subject matter why don't you just ask instead of posting a sarcastic comment? You and others were discussing/arguing about the amount of profit made by Rapha. You produced figures, correct or not, that were apparently argued with by samhocking because he apparaently considered them too low, his argument being that profits were reinvested and hence not shown. Profit retained for future investment is shown in annual profit statements so would be in the figures you quoted anyway, assuming they were correct.

As I said, eminent accountant.

Neither samhocking nor I dispute that Rapha's profits are lowered by the investments being made in their current expansion. Further, it is entirely possible - especially if the figure of 11% of turnover in the first six months of the Sky deal is true for the full year - that the gross profit being made on the Sky deal alone is in excess of the company's overall bottom line. (And if you doubt the figures I posted please do post the figures you think are accurate).

Still completely misunderstanding the facts and context. The figures are NOT lowered by the reinvestment. The figures you quote (which I don't and haven't disputed) would include anything that would be retained for reinvestment. But don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Still completely misunderstanding the facts and context. The figures are NOT lowered by the reinvestment. The figures you quote (which I don't and haven't disputed) would include anything that would be retained for reinvestment. But don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

I don't know where you obtained your accountancy qualification but I would respectfully suggest you contact the issuing body and ask for your money back.

 

[samhocking]

Farcanal. Profit is the money a business makes after accounting for all the expenses. If you make £10M selling cycling jerseys, but spent that £10M opening new stores before the end of your accounting year, your profit is £0.

 

[Farcanal]

Re:

Farcanal. Profit is the money a business makes after accounting for all the expenses. If you make £10M selling cycling jerseys, but spent that £10M opening new stores before the end of your accounting year, your profit is £0.

No it isn't. That's where you guys misunderstand how the published figures are arrived at. But what us patently clear is that there is no point in arguing with you. Eminent accountant' clearly fits you two better than anyone else

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Farcanal. Profit is the money a business makes after accounting for all the expenses. If you make £10M selling cycling jerseys, but spent that £10M opening new stores before the end of your accounting year, your profit is £0.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Look, let's park the panto a mo and talk turkey. Rapha is expanding, rapidly. Rapha is moving more and more from click to order to bricks and mortar (while also having to invest heavily in its click to order platform). This expansion is impacting its bottom line: the numbers are lowered in consequence of it. Some of the cost of doing this hits the bottom line immediately (for eg wages are accelerating quicker than sales). Some of it hits the bottom line in a deferred fashion (for eg in four years depreciation has grown from £144k to £794k). All of it ultimately hits the bottom line, the only question is when. That is the way accountancy works. You know this, we all know this.

If we are going to make progress on this, you are going to have to dispute specific parts. Let's try these:

1) Do you dispute that Rapha is investing in expansion?

2) Do you dispute that that expansion is impacting the bottom line?

3) Can you accept that you might be just a teeny weeny little bit confused over this?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Farcanal. Profit is the money a business makes after accounting for all the expenses. If you make £10M selling cycling jerseys, but spent that £10M opening new stores before the end of your accounting year, your profit is £0.

IME investment tends to be capex and the like, and depreciated over a number of years.

Investments are not all accounted for in the year in which they are made.

So no, your profit is not $0. Not by a long shot.

Cash in the bank? Sure it may be $0. But that's a different thing to profit.

 

[pastronef]

Re: dibble dabble

...........ffs doe's the viability of rapha's business model really impact on whether or

not team sky are dabbling.................?

Mark L

eh you know
when you say one is bad, you WANT everything involved with that to be negative.
that´s why people are so interested about Rapha stopping with Sky (because there is FOR SURE something wrong )
sponsors come and go since forever in cycling.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: dibble dabble

...........ffs doe's the viability of rapha's business model really impact on whether or

not team sky are dabbling.................?

Of course not. But the belief expressed by so many that Rapha "made a fortune" out of the Sky deal was worth questioning. A lot of people round here tend to just believe things without any evidence, and then choose to ignore the evidence when it contradicts their beliefs.

 

[The Hitch]

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/could-cycling-be-dropped-by-the-bbc-as-it-faces-150m-spending-cuts-200329

But wait. I thought Paul Weller winning the tdf made it Britains national sport?