Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Bag of Guts]

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

 

[elduggo]

Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

right

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Assuming it is true that some people who have never been to Mount Teide have taken drugs and got away with it I don't suppose it is a primary reason to go.

But I have fallen into the trap of reinvigorating an old played-out debate. Just given myself a smack on the hand.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Transport, logistics and accommodation need to be added in there too.

 

[Bag of Guts]

Re: Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Assuming it is true that some people who have never been to Mount Teide have taken drugs and got away with it I don't suppose it is a primary reason to go.

Nice logic, but you surely have to concede that IF drugs constituted part of your training regime, it'd be preferable to train in a place beyond the reaches of any of those pesky maverick testers who may or may not still exist at WADA, the AFLD or CONI.

 

[Bronstein]

Of greater concern, however, is that altitude exposure seems misused by some athletes as a masking procedure since sports federations such as the International Cycling Union (ICU) exclude the analytical results of blood samples obtained for the Athlete Biological Passport (ABP) (see later) in conjugation to altitude exposure, and, hence, it cannot be ruled that some athletes may go to altitude with the specific aim to dope knowing that potential blood samples will not be used.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3372716/

 

[Bag of Guts]

Re: Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Transport, logistics and accommodation need to be added in there too.

Okay, cool... Roads, altitude, weather, drugs, accommodation.

Although...

Transport and logistics? Not sure what this means in real terms. Easyjet, Hertz and network coverage?

If we can think of enough things to put on our list, maybe drugs can be buried in the middle somewhere?

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs, accommodation, transport and logistics

 

[Bag of Guts]

Re: Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Assuming it is true that some people who have never been to Mount Teide have taken drugs and got away with it I don't suppose it is a primary reason to go.

But I have fallen into the trap of reinvigorating an old played-out debate. Just given myself a smack on the hand.

Self flagellation not required, Wrinkly, don't be too hard on yourself.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Assuming it is true that some people who have never been to Mount Teide have taken drugs and got away with it I don't suppose it is a primary reason to go.

Nice logic, but you surely have to concede that IF drugs constituted part of your training regime, it'd be preferable to train in a place beyond the reaches of any of those pesky maverick testers who may or may not still exist at WADA, the AFLD or CONI.

This subject has been done to death in the past. I haven't ever had to dodge drug testers so I don't know if I could say, but I have seen that Tenerife receives more than 5,000,000 tourists a year and I don't suppose that I would be confident that drug testers would not be amongst them. The idea that teams would have spies at the airport was put about last time around. Who knows? There must be similar uncertainty about the regularity of testing at almost any other venue.

Anyway, regrettably I now have some gardening to do, so I'll leave you all to your fun.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Assuming it is true that some people who have never been to Mount Teide have taken drugs and got away with it I don't suppose it is a primary reason to go.

But I have fallen into the trap of reinvigorating an old played-out debate. Just given myself a smack on the hand.

Self flagellation not required, Wrinkly, don't be too hard on yourself.

That's kind! Enjoy your day.

 

[DanielSong39]

Guys, this is the clinic; we don't need to be horrified by the mere suggestion of drug use.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Transport, logistics and accommodation need to be added in there too.

Okay, cool... Roads, altitude, weather, drugs, accommodation.

Although...

Transport and logistics? Not sure what this means in real terms. Easyjet, Hertz and network coverage?

If we can think of enough things to put on our list, maybe drugs can be buried in the middle somewhere?

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs, accommodation, transport and logistics

If you don't know what it means go look in the Tenerife thread. As has been pointed out, drugs can be found anywhere and used anywhere, Tenerife is not unique. Teams are not making a secret of their trips to Tenerife, it would be extremely easy to test them there if an anti-doping body wanted to, that is not the fault of the teams going there.

The fact remains that Tenerife is an extremely good place to go and train.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Assuming it is true that some people who have never been to Mount Teide have taken drugs and got away with it I don't suppose it is a primary reason to go.

Nice logic, but you surely have to concede that IF drugs constituted part of your training regime, it'd be preferable to train in a place beyond the reaches of any of those pesky maverick testers who may or may not still exist at WADA, the AFLD or CONI.

This subject has been done to death in the past. I haven't ever had to dodge drug testers so I don't know if I could say, but I have seen that Tenerife receives more than 5,000,000 tourists a year and I don't suppose that I would be confident that drug testers would not be amongst them. The idea that teams would have spies at the airport was put about last time around. Who knows? There must be similar uncertainty about the regularity of testing at almost any other venue.

Anyway, regrettably I now have some gardening to do, so I'll leave you all to your fun.

In 2014 it was 11.5 million tourists to the Canaries, 4.1 million to Tenerife. The idea that a team could spy on arrivals and pick out testers arriving is crazy considering the teams are training there in a Tourist season. The calculations are in the last thread but even if we divide it over the whole year that's 11,200 people a day arriving to Tenerife. It's also important to consider all arrivals as travel between the islands is easy.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Sky

it was a time and it was a place...times and places move on

 

[Bag of Guts]

Re: Re:

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs. Right?

Transport, logistics and accommodation need to be added in there too.

Okay, cool... Roads, altitude, weather, drugs, accommodation.

Although...

Transport and logistics? Not sure what this means in real terms. Easyjet, Hertz and network coverage?

If we can think of enough things to put on our list, maybe drugs can be buried in the middle somewhere?

Roads, altitude, weather, drugs, accommodation, transport and logistics

If you don't know what it means go look in the Tenerife thread. As has been pointed out, drugs can be found anywhere and used anywhere, Tenerife is not unique. Teams are not making a secret of their trips to Tenerife, it would be extremely easy to test them there if an anti-doping body wanted to, that is not the fault of the teams going there.

The fact remains that Tenerife is an extremely good place to go and train.

Aw sorry, KB, it doesn't have to be like that. I'm just a little wary of the sort of language that too often gets used to lend simple things an air of unimpeachable professionalism. I probably came across as being a bit cheeky and seem to have annoyed you. Could you please tell me, just really quickly, what you, King Bonen, mean by transport and logistics?

 

[Bag of Guts]

Shall we take this to the Tenerife thread?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Aw sorry, KB, it doesn't have to be like that. I'm just a little wary of the sort of language that too often gets used to lend simple things an air of unimpeachable professionalism. I probably came across as being a bit cheeky and seem to have annoyed you. Could you please tell me, just really quickly, what you, King Bonen, mean by transport and logistics?

Annoyed? No, I'm just not going to repeat 30 pages of discussion. Here's the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18691&hilit=Tenerife

 

[Bag of Guts]

Re: Re:

Aw sorry, KB, it doesn't have to be like that. I'm just a little wary of the sort of language that too often gets used to lend simple things an air of unimpeachable professionalism. I probably came across as being a bit cheeky and seem to have annoyed you. Could you please tell me, just really quickly, what you, King Bonen, mean by transport and logistics?

Annoyed? No, I'm just not going to repeat 30 pages of discussion. Here's the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18691&hilit=Tenerife

Sorry KB, I know where the thread is. Sorry if I'm bothering you but pointing me to the beginning of a 600 post thread (that I've already read) comes over a bit passive aggressive and doesn't really help our discussion. Basically, I do not accept what you're saying as self-evident (Tenerife is better for 'transport and logistics' than other training locations) and I'm asking you to elaborate.

What I'm asking you, King Boonen, is what you (KB) mean when you say transport and logistics. The reason I'm asking you directly, here, in this thread (and being a pain in the arse about it), is that you're asking for these things to be added to the special list of things that make Tenerife a training paradise (MY SPECIAL LIST!!!). I put to you that 'transport and logistics' is meaningless marketing speak that you're using to lend authority to what you're saying. What does it mean in real words? Your real words?

 

[Bag of Guts]

I warn you that the integrity of the special list is at stake. If we start putting too much extraneous bumf on there, we might forget about why we're here (the drugs).

Also, we really need to get ourselves into the Tenerife thread.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Aw sorry, KB, it doesn't have to be like that. I'm just a little wary of the sort of language that too often gets used to lend simple things an air of unimpeachable professionalism. I probably came across as being a bit cheeky and seem to have annoyed you. Could you please tell me, just really quickly, what you, King Bonen, mean by transport and logistics?

Annoyed? No, I'm just not going to repeat 30 pages of discussion. Here's the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18691&hilit=Tenerife

Sorry KB, I know where the thread is. Sorry if I'm bothering you but pointing me to the beginning of a 600 post thread (that I've already read) comes over a bit passive aggressive and doesn't really help our discussion. Basically, I do not accept what you're saying as self-evident (Tenerife is better for 'transport and logistics' than other training locations) and I'm asking you to elaborate.

What I'm asking you, King Boonen, is what you (KB) mean when you say transport and logistics. The reason I'm asking you directly, here, in this thread (and being a pain in the **** about it), is that you're asking for these things to be added to the special list of things that make Tenerife a training paradise (MY SPECIAL LIST!!!). I put to you that 'transport and logistics' is meaningless marketing speak that you're using to lend authority to what you're saying. What does it mean in real words? Your real words?

Transport means flights from all over Europe and too all over Europe. It means that cycling teams that have riders and staff based, sometimes thousands of miles apart, in different countries can easily organise (logistics) for everyone they require to get there easily. It also means they would have no trouble getting people home or to races if required. It is one of the easiest places for anyone in Europe to get to due to direct and connecting flights. That includes the testers.

Logistics means large hotels in suitable locations with good amenities to serve the teams. It means well maintained roads and established links to allow the transport, storage and use of bikes and equipment. Large hotels means large rooms for indoor testing and the use of stationary equipment. Logistics includes the high availability of flights of course.

Of course, if you had read that thread and others discussing Tenerife you would know that.

 

[Bag of Guts]

Re: Re:

Aw sorry, KB, it doesn't have to be like that. I'm just a little wary of the sort of language that too often gets used to lend simple things an air of unimpeachable professionalism. I probably came across as being a bit cheeky and seem to have annoyed you. Could you please tell me, just really quickly, what you, King Bonen, mean by transport and logistics?

Annoyed? No, I'm just not going to repeat 30 pages of discussion. Here's the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18691&hilit=Tenerife

Sorry KB, I know where the thread is. Sorry if I'm bothering you but pointing me to the beginning of a 600 post thread (that I've already read) comes over a bit passive aggressive and doesn't really help our discussion. Basically, I do not accept what you're saying as self-evident (Tenerife is better for 'transport and logistics' than other training locations) and I'm asking you to elaborate.

What I'm asking you, King Boonen, is what you (KB) mean when you say transport and logistics. The reason I'm asking you directly, here, in this thread (and being a pain in the **** about it), is that you're asking for these things to be added to the special list of things that make Tenerife a training paradise (MY SPECIAL LIST!!!). I put to you that 'transport and logistics' is meaningless marketing speak that you're using to lend authority to what you're saying. What does it mean in real words? Your real words?

Transport means flights from all over Europe and too all over Europe. It means that cycling teams that have riders and staff based, sometimes thousands of miles apart, in different countries can easily organise (logistics) for everyone they require to get there easily. It also means they would have no trouble getting people home or to races if required. It is one of the easiest places for anyone in Europe to get to due to direct and connecting flights. That includes the testers.

Logistics means large hotels in suitable locations with good amenities to serve the teams. It means well maintained roads and established links to allow the transport, storage and use of bikes and equipment. Large hotels means large rooms for indoor testing and the use of stationary equipment. Logistics includes the high availability of flights of course.

Of course, if you had read that thread and others discussing Tenerife you would know that.

Cool, I'll jut put it down under Easyjet, then. We've already got roads and accommodation.

Roads, altitude, weather, DRUGS, accommodation, Easyjet.

There we go.

 

[King Boonen]

Seems my initial impressions were correct then. Have fun.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

The reasons for going to Tenerife have been discussed over and over, there is even a thread somewhere about it. It's pretty much a perfect training base. Comparing it to Gran Canaria is a bit silly.

yes, it is, you are correct, and we're getting side-tracked from the original point I was trying to make.

which was, why did Syed not ask the question?

Your record is stuck.. lift the needle and move it over (assuming you ever did that).

It would appear Sky's record is stuck, as it is droning out the same BS that USPostal teams droned on about as excuses for their unbelievable performances.

 

[thehog]

Re: Sky

I guess the question is that why does there need to be whistleblowers to prove that there is doping? I thought that testing is robust and proves that someone is clean? Are whistleblowers the new standard of proof of doping?

Its an odd position to take, the standard is now a Stepanova styled whistleblower ignored by her international federation and WADA living in exile?

And on that note, didn't we just have a whistleblower in the UK who was ignored by UKAD?

 

[kwikki]

Re: Sky

I guess the question is that why does there need to be whistleblowers to prove that there is doping?
?

As opposed to what?

As it stands there is nothing that proves there is doping. What there is consists of one unusual performance change that is enough to merit asking questions, and some circumstance such as the appointment of a doctor known to have been involved in doping. You and I have come to the same conclusion as to the relationship between our suspicions and the circumstantial evidence, but we can't claim to have proved anything.

The absence of whistleblowers absolutely does not prove anything either, certainly not that Sky don't Dope. However you can't just pick and choose which bits of the Armstrong parallel you like, you have to compare it all and it is at least a tiny bit interesting that so far we've not seen any whistleblowers as by this point in USPS there had been quite a few.

That none of them were listened to pre-Floyd relates back to your point about UKAD'S sweeping of The Boner firmly under the carpet. It's a valid point.