Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Feb 23, 2011
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Re: Sky

Its good to have some thoughtful debate - that's what discussion forums are all about. You might not agree with someone's point of view but they are entitled to it nonetheless.

With Sky you could analyse the ins, outs and whatever's and hypothesise about what did actually happen until you are blue in the face. The point is nobody knows until one day somebody breaks cover and goes on the record.

I prefer to base it on facts.

Its a fact that Sky purport to be clean team (within the rules and without crossing the line)
Its also a fact that Brailsford (and also the team) claim to be obsessive about detail, planning, execution, etc etc etc and Marginal gains. Hell Brailsford even said himself that he runs a "tight ship". This is the Team Sky sales pitch to the world, it is at their very foundation, core values.

However countless times now at key points in the teams history Brailsford has made catastrophic errors of judgement e.g management, doctors, JTL, TUE's.

Are they really errors of judgement, continual bad luck or just signs of a man who will do whatever he needs to do until he is called on it at which point he puts the Murdoch spin machine into action?

It simply doesn't add up. How can a man who so ruthlessly espouses an obsessive attention to detail make such bad judgements on so many occasions - almost like a comedy of errors.

The idea that set against the past 25 years of doping he would sanction a TUE for his star rider without question and simply rely on his advisors is inconceivable. Its like a company director blaming a Tax investigation on his accountants advice. If you are an MD the buck stops at you, you have ultimately responsibility and control.

At this point in time I am actually more annoyed about the level of contempt Brailsford has and the manner in which he controls the media agenda in insulting the intelligence of the public than the accusation of doping itself.

DB is feeding everyone a steaming pack of lies and its getting beyond a joke.
 
May 26, 2010
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King Boonen said:
Well again this simply isn't true so I guess doctor is out of the window. A doctor is allowed to choose a treatment regime based on what they think will be best for the patient. Wiggins may not respond to other medications, he may suffer more severe side-effects, they may have decided a single injection to cover a racing period where he was travelling thousands of kilometres in varied conditions was better than daily medication. They may have decided a proactive approach of using a prophylactic was better decision than reactive treatment of symptoms. They may even have done it to dope him, but frankly, with the allowance of OOC corticosteroid use that would seem pretty pointless.

A doctor is allowed to choose treatment based on the condition of the patient. So now you are arguing Wiggins was sick. Before it was he was going to be sick! The doctor knew Wiggins needed the biggest cortisone PED available so he wouldn't be sick! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry KB i aint the one posting shyte!

Sport is a cesspit and Sky currently making the most effluent.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
A doctor is allowed to choose treatment based on the condition of the patient. So now you are arguing Wiggins was sick. Before it was he was going to be sick!

Err... No. prophylactic treatment is given before people are sick, you are again failing to understand a post and a simple concept.

The doctor knew Wiggins needed the biggest cortisone PED available so he wouldn't be sick! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry KB i aint the one posting shyte!

Dexamethasone. Yes, you are.

Sport is a cesspit and Sky currently making the most effluent.

I highly doubt that. Possibly in cycling but they're small-fry compared to NBA, NFL, Rugby League, Aussie rules etc.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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I doubt Sky and cycling are small fry.
Doping in the sports you mention doesn't have to be sophisticated and doesn't need to take you through three week stage races which normal human beings wouldn't be able to absorb physsicaly.
Money is not an argument either. There are less pros in cycling, so more money to share per head.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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Craigee said:
The GB track team have Sky on their shorts so I think it is appropriate to ask here. King Boonen is clearly pro Sky and GB. Could they please explain their own take on how the whole GB team performed so incredibly well in Rio? How does an already top successful rider some late 20s improve so much?

Cavendish takes I think 8 seconds off his best IP time and is disappointed not to break Sir Brad's Olympic record even though Sir Brad is probably the best IP rider ever. How does a road sprinter who cannot Time Trial to save his life with so little time to train after the tour, go so close to Sir Brad's time? No marginal gains here. Massive unbelievable incredible stupendous gains.

How does Laura Trot take so much off her PB when she has done so many IPs?

How does Kenny ride a 9.5 at sea level? Kenny's father in law to be told me at the event that Kenny wanted to quit last year. What a turn around.

How can Skinner improve so much from the worlds but also on any of his previous performances?

The British women couldn't qualify for the womens team sprint and I have no doubt on their top 2 qualifying rides, that they would have won the TS had they qualified.

Both TPs men and women break world records. Less surprising but still amazing.

Not just them though.

How does Lasse Hansen take 5 seconds off his PB for the IP? Did you all see how he lapped the field in the points race? Beyond normal in my opinion. It took him many laps.

How does Viviani take seconds off his PB for the IP?

These two have done so many IPs including at many worlds events. So how do they improve so much in one go?

These guys made Gaviria look second rate which they couldn't do six months earlier.

Thanks

I think anyone who knows Adrian well enough to have that conversation would also know that his daughter would have nothing to do with PEDs or anything else likely to impact negatively on her health
 
May 26, 2010
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King Boonen said:
Benotti69 said:
A doctor is allowed to choose treatment based on the condition of the patient. So now you are arguing Wiggins was sick. Before it was he was going to be sick!

Err... No. prophylactic treatment is given before people are sick, you are again failing to understand a post and a simple concept.

The doctor knew Wiggins needed the biggest cortisone PED available so he wouldn't be sick! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry KB i aint the one posting shyte!

Dexamethasone. Yes, you are.

Sport is a cesspit and Sky currently making the most effluent.

I highly doubt that. Possibly in cycling but they're small-fry compared to NBA, NFL, Rugby League, Aussie rules etc.

The simple concept is Wiggins doped. Obfuscating by believing the system is honest is BS.

If Wiggins was not a doper he'd be releasing his asthma history and giving us bone idle w****rs the 2 fingers.

Sky lied. Wiggins lied.
 
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Craigee said:
The GB track team have Sky on their shorts so I think it is appropriate to ask here. King Boonen is clearly pro Sky and GB. Could they please explain their own take on how the whole GB team performed so incredibly well in Rio? How does an already top successful rider some late 20s improve so much?

Cavendish takes I think 8 seconds off his best IP time and is disappointed not to break Sir Brad's Olympic record even though Sir Brad is probably the best IP rider ever. How does a road sprinter who cannot Time Trial to save his life with so little time to train after the tour, go so close to Sir Brad's time? No marginal gains here. Massive unbelievable incredible stupendous gains.

How does Laura Trot take so much off her PB when she has done so many IPs?

How does Kenny ride a 9.5 at sea level? Kenny's father in law to be told me at the event that Kenny wanted to quit last year. What a turn around.

How can Skinner improve so much from the worlds but also on any of his previous performances?

The British women couldn't qualify for the womens team sprint and I have no doubt on their top 2 qualifying rides, that they would have won the TS had they qualified.

Both TPs men and women break world records. Less surprising but still amazing.

Not just them though.

How does Lasse Hansen take 5 seconds off his PB for the IP? Did you all see how he lapped the field in the points race? Beyond normal in my opinion. It took him many laps.

How does Viviani take seconds off his PB for the IP?

These two have done so many IPs including at many worlds events. So how do they improve so much in one go?

These guys made Gaviria look second rate which they couldn't do six months earlier.

Thanks

Hi Craigee, I'm not pro Sky, pro GB or pro anyone. I'm anti rubbish and in this very specific case, anti violating people's human rights.
 
May 26, 2010
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Choosing to show your medical history for asthma or pollen is hardly a violation.

Especially since 85% of winners of the TdF since Tom Simpsons death have been 'proven' dopers.

Callum Skinner i doubt feels violated.

A team that said they would rather one their riders didn't race if he was sick then apply for a TUE were caught doing the exact opposite of what they said they would do. Now time for Wiggins to step up to the plate and prove like Skinner he is a lifelong asthma sufferer.

That is not violating his rights.

Wiggins has no problem insulting people or smoking as an known asthma sufferer, why would he be ashamed by proving to world with documents he had asthma as a kid?
 
May 26, 2010
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Farcanal said:
[
I think anyone who knows Adrian well enough to have that conversation would also know that his daughter would have nothing to do with PEDs or anything else likely to impact negatively on her health

I think the same could have been said of Christy Kimmage, Paul's dad. Paul doped twice in his career for post TdF criteriums.

Health has never been an issue to prevent athletes doping. Heck most don't even know the side effects of what teams give them or tell them to take.
 
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Benotti69 said:
Choosing to show your medical history for asthma or pollen is hardly a violation.

Especially since 85% of winners of the TdF since Tom Simpsons death have been 'proven' dopers.

Callum Skinner i doubt feels violated.

A team that said they would rather one their riders didn't race if he was sick then apply for a TUE were caught doing the exact opposite of what they said they would do. Now time for Wiggins to step up to the plate and prove like Skinner he is a lifelong asthma sufferer.

That is not violating his rights.

Wiggins has no problem insulting people or smoking as an known asthma sufferer, why would he be ashamed by proving to world with documents he had asthma as a kid?


Fair enough in the case of asthma but TUEs aren't just issued for asthma problems. There's plenty of other conditions that most people would prefer to keep personal so if we limit disclosure to "non-personal" conditions only it automatically tells us something about everybody else. I don't see a middle ground working from an ethical point of view.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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Benotti69 said:
Farcanal said:
[
I think anyone who knows Adrian well enough to have that conversation would also know that his daughter would have nothing to do with PEDs or anything else likely to impact negatively on her health

I think the same could have been said of Christy Kimmage, Paul's dad. Paul doped twice in his career for post TdF criteriums.

Health has never been an issue to prevent athletes doping. Heck most don't even know the side effects of what teams give them or tell them to take.

You may be right about the Kimmage family but I don't know them, except by reputation and what is reported. However, I do prefer to trust my instincts about people I know rather than the opinions and prejudices of people I don't.
 
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doperhopper said:
nice point: at least we know now... because they joined Movement For INCREDIBLE Cycling

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/now-we-understand-why-team-sky-never-joined-says-mpcc-doctor/

I have appreciated that Sky's b/s has been called out on numerous fronts, especially from within cycling.

They're not able to dissipate this one. It's sticking. It's stuck. And the reason is: it's simply true, and there's nothing they can really say which undoes the truth.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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excellent piece from Thijs Zonneveld about Sky's smoke and mirrors.
http://www.ad.nl/sport/rookgordijnen-en-holle-frases~a4689ade/

When I asked manager Brailsford about [the MPCC] last year he walked away without answering.
The only journo who did get a glimpse behind the scenes was David Walsh, but he went on to publish outright lies. According to one of Sky's physiologists, the team would never let riders race with TUEs. That looked nice on paper, but in reality it was a blatant lie.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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Throw them out of the WorldTour


Yeah right, it may stink but the TUE was done legally....if you want Sky thrown out then you need to chuck out all the other teams who have had any doping violations.....that'd leave a pretty thin World Tour selection!
 
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deviant said:
Throw them out of the WorldTour


Yeah right, it may stink but the TUE was done legally....if you want Sky thrown out then you need to chuck out all the other teams who have had any doping violations.....that'd leave a pretty thin World Tour selection!
Was it? I seriously doubt it was. Sporting fraud at its worst, well maybe not quite, but up there since this is a cycling forum.
 
Re: Re:

ferryman said:
deviant said:
Throw them out of the WorldTour


Yeah right, it may stink but the TUE was done legally....if you want Sky thrown out then you need to chuck out all the other teams who have had any doping violations.....that'd leave a pretty thin World Tour selection!
Was it? I seriously doubt it was. Sporting fraud at its worst, well maybe not quite, but up there since this is a cycling forum.

How? This went through two doctors, the UCI and WADA had a final veto. If there was any impropriety then surely WADA would of said no.
 
Re: Re:

MatParker117 said:
ferryman said:
deviant said:
Throw them out of the WorldTour


Yeah right, it may stink but the TUE was done legally....if you want Sky thrown out then you need to chuck out all the other teams who have had any doping violations.....that'd leave a pretty thin World Tour selection!
Was it? I seriously doubt it was. Sporting fraud at its worst, well maybe not quite, but up there since this is a cycling forum.

How? This went through two doctors, the UCI and WADA had a final veto. If there was any impropriety then surely WADA would of said no.

Which they can only exercise if they decide to review a TUE decision of an international federation. As far as I know, there is no evidence that WADA reviewed any of the TUE decisions with respect to Wiggins.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

MatParker117 said:
ferryman said:
deviant said:
Throw them out of the WorldTour


Yeah right, it may stink but the TUE was done legally....if you want Sky thrown out then you need to chuck out all the other teams who have had any doping violations.....that'd leave a pretty thin World Tour selection!
Was it? I seriously doubt it was. Sporting fraud at its worst, well maybe not quite, but up there since this is a cycling forum.

How? This went through two doctors, the UCI and WADA had a final veto. If there was any impropriety then surely WADA would of said no.

UCI improriety? They haven't risen to that level yet? Give Cookson a chance FFS!!!

WADA impropriety again IOC would never let them rise to even dirty levels from the cesspit sport is?

If the UCI gave a fig, it would have made 3 man UCI committee check Wiggins TUEs were required. Not just hand it over to Zorzoli.

Impropriety HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ps MatP must be paid to post this stuff. :lol: