Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Kindly leave obree out of this, thank you.

wot you talking about, he was an IP rider, road a sojourn on the road,

theme was pursuiters on the road. so stop being silly, and put it in this context

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Pretty good for a pursuit rider who has the right kind of physiology for the cobbled classics.

There's two other pursuit riders who have broken through on the high mountains to become GT winners: Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible. Thomas clearly unfolding on this axiom.

The rest of the ex-pursuiters try to pickpocket the sprinters on the flats from 4kms out - Ekimov - & help power a TTT & occasionally pick up a high placing in an individual TT.

It's these kinds of transformations that make doping sirens ring as loud they possibly go.

Comments like this make me wonder if people actually know cycling history. IP has generally been considered good background for producing champions - there's a quote I can't quite recall now, give me a good pursuit rider and I'll give you a champion the road - so for it to be considered now as some kind of unusual transformation ...

Yes, many doped (Coppi, Anquetil), of course they doped, that was the sport.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Pretty good for a pursuit rider who has the right kind of physiology for the cobbled classics.

There's two other pursuit riders who have broken through on the high mountains to become GT winners: Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible. Thomas clearly unfolding on this axiom.

The rest of the ex-pursuiters try to pickpocket the sprinters on the flats from 4kms out - Ekimov - & help power a TTT & occasionally pick up a high placing in an individual TT.

It's these kinds of transformations that make doping sirens ring as loud they possibly go.

Comments like this make me wonder if people actually know cycling history. IP has generally been considered good background for producing champions - there's a quote I can't quite recall now, give me a good pursuit rider and I'll give you a champion the road - so for it to be considered now as some kind of unusual transformation ...

Yes, many doped (Coppi, Anquetil), of course they doped, that was the sport.

Yes, many doped (Coppi, Anquetil, Hinault, Roche, Fignon, Indurain, Delgado, Pantani, Ullrich, Armstrong, Schleck, Contador, Vino, Evans, Wiggins, Froome), of course they doped, that IS the sport

Corrected.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

Pretty good for a pursuit rider who has the right kind of physiology for the cobbled classics.

There's two other pursuit riders who have broken through on the high mountains to become GT winners: Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible. Thomas clearly unfolding on this axiom.

The rest of the ex-pursuiters try to pickpocket the sprinters on the flats from 4kms out - Ekimov - & help power a TTT & occasionally pick up a high placing in an individual TT.

It's these kinds of transformations that make doping sirens ring as loud they possibly go.

Comments like this make me wonder if people actually know cycling history. IP has generally been considered good background for producing champions - there's a quote I can't quite recall now, give me a good pursuit rider and I'll give you a champion the road - so for it to be considered now as some kind of unusual transformation ...

Yes, many doped (Coppi, Anquetil), of course they doped, that was the sport.

I think it is a pretty unusual transformation, looking at the history of the sport.
Good pursuiters can make great roadmen, but generally in the classics or nipping out of the bunch and holding them off, like Ekimov mentioned above. Pursuiter turned grand tour contender warrants speculation. Well not serious speculation cos, ye know...

Ergo Geeeeeeeee (I effing hate that shorthand) is up to his eyeballs.
That's my very well reasoned argument.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Pretty good for a pursuit rider who has the right kind of physiology for the cobbled classics.

There's two other pursuit riders who have broken through on the high mountains to become GT winners: Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible. Thomas clearly unfolding on this axiom.

The rest of the ex-pursuiters try to pickpocket the sprinters on the flats from 4kms out - Ekimov - & help power a TTT & occasionally pick up a high placing in an individual TT.

It's these kinds of transformations that make doping sirens ring as loud they possibly go.

Comments like this make me wonder if people actually know cycling history. IP has generally been considered good background for producing champions - there's a quote I can't quite recall now, give me a good pursuit rider and I'll give you a champion the road - so for it to be considered now as some kind of unusual transformation ...

Yes, many doped (Coppi, Anquetil), of course they doped, that was the sport.

Champions, yes. Sure.

GT champions?? Sorry, no.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

To bring it back to Sky:
Geraint Thomas has no business climbing within 17 seconds of Quintana.

edit-
I see there is a Geeeee thread. Will take it over there instead.

PS. Is there any Sky rider who doesn't have his own clinic thread?

Why not, he's shown form before in the mountains in many other races ...

Indeed, he's beaten Quintana before.

Pretty good for a pursuit rider who has the right kind of physiology for the cobbled classics.

There's two other pursuit riders who have broken through on the high mountains to become GT winners: Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible. Thomas clearly unfolding on this axiom.

The rest of the ex-pursuiters try to pickpocket the sprinters on the flats from 4kms out - Ekimov - & help power a TTT & occasionally pick up a high placing in an individual TT.

It's these kinds of transformations that make doping sirens ring as loud they possibly go.

I don't think that you are helping your point!

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

To bring it back to Sky:
Geraint Thomas has no business climbing within 17 seconds of Quintana.

edit-
I see there is a Geeeee thread. Will take it over there instead.

PS. Is there any Sky rider who doesn't have his own clinic thread?

Why not, he's shown form before in the mountains in many other races ...

Indeed, he's beaten Quintana before.

Pretty good for a pursuit rider who has the right kind of physiology for the cobbled classics.

There's two other pursuit riders who have broken through on the high mountains to become GT winners: Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible. Thomas clearly unfolding on this axiom.

The rest of the ex-pursuiters try to pickpocket the sprinters on the flats from 4kms out - Ekimov - & help power a TTT & occasionally pick up a high placing in an individual TT.

It's these kinds of transformations that make doping sirens ring as loud they possibly go.

I don't think that you are helping your point!

''Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible''.


I don't think his point could be any clearer.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

''Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible''.


I don't think his point could be any clearer.

but, usually implicit in this is, track riders, and their track career, and at Linda Macartney, Wigans was on the bread and water. my @rse.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Pretty good for a pursuit rider who has the right kind of physiology for the cobbled classics.

There's two other pursuit riders who have broken through on the high mountains to become GT winners: Evegni Berzin and good old Bradley. There's no doubt about how either of them changed their characteristics to make the impossible possible. Thomas clearly unfolding on this axiom.

The rest of the ex-pursuiters try to pickpocket the sprinters on the flats from 4kms out - Ekimov - & help power a TTT & occasionally pick up a high placing in an individual TT.

It's these kinds of transformations that make doping sirens ring as loud they possibly go.

Comments like this make me wonder if people actually know cycling history. IP has generally been considered good background for producing champions - there's a quote I can't quite recall now, give me a good pursuit rider and I'll give you a champion the road - so for it to be considered now as some kind of unusual transformation ...

Yes, many doped (Coppi, Anquetil), of course they doped, that was the sport.

I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.

or gimme andy shleck and i will dope him til an inch of his life and he becomes a tdf winner...

wrt pursuiters... it is 4 minutes of wattage, if you can put out 8watts per kg anaerobic, guimard is right to assume his potential to switch energy systems and win on 21 days and uphill.

if you switch the o2 doping

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.

or gimme andy shleck and i will dope him til an inch of his life and he becomes a tdf winner...

wrt pursuiters... it is 4 minutes of wattage, if you can put out 8watts per kg anaerobic, guimard is right to assume his potential to switch energy systems and win on 21 days and uphill.

if you switch the o2 doping

I think the quote is probably too early to consider O2 doping isn't it?

If it was Guimard we're talking early to mid seventies and if it was Stablinski, or someone else, we're talking late sixties to early seventies. I don't have the book to hand to check when it was or who it was though.

I think it's worth noting that the tour routes then were more favourable to good TTers. Coppi, Bobet, Merckx, Anquetil, Hinault etc. were all very good TTers, as well as good climbers obviously, whereas the climbers seen to get one or two GT titles (Gaul, Bahamontes, Van Impe etc.).

 

[The Hegelian]

Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

 

[thehog]

Re:

Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

Very true. There was once a thread on this very topic but the bots has it closed down. Wiggins and Bezin are the only two to win a GT. In Wiggins case they not had him jacked up on a program but flattered out the course and extended the ITTs.

 

[Stingray34]

Re:

Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

Moser. But yes, the course was tailor-made for him and even received some 'heli-support' in the ITT.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

Moser. But yes, the course was tailor-made for him and even received some 'heli-support' in the ITT.

Moser had 7 GT top tens over a period of 10 years before he won his GT though...that and a very very solid road career.....beats the hell out of Wiggins rising from the boards in 2009............

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

Moser. But yes, the course was tailor-made for him and even received some 'heli-support' in the ITT.

Moser had 7 GT top tens over a period of 10 years before he won his GT though...that and a very very solid road career.....beats the hell out of Wiggins rising from the boards in 2009............

Agree. WC on the road, too. In hindsight, Moser went the other direction, from road to track exploits.

 

[The Hegelian]

Yeah, Moser is a good call. The name certainly doesn't scream out "clean cycling!" - but nonetheless, it's a pretty solid precedent. Two Lombardy's on his palmares too.

Who else? Any Frenchies?

 

[StryderHells]

Re:

Yeah, Moser is a good call. The name certainly doesn't scream out "clean cycling!" - but nonetheless, it's a pretty solid precedent. Two Lombardy's on his palmares too.

Who else? Any Frenchies?

Moser was a road rider who won the IP and not the other way around, Coppi is also another GT winner who won an IP WC (2 actually) and Hugo Koblet finished 3rd in Coppi's first IP WC. Can't think of any French riders who fit the criteria

 

[thehog]

Re:

Yeah, Moser is a good call. The name certainly doesn't scream out "clean cycling!" - but nonetheless, it's a pretty solid precedent. Two Lombardy's on his palmares too.

Who else? Any Frenchies?

Thomas Geriant will win the Giro this year

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

Yeah, Moser is a good call. The name certainly doesn't scream out "clean cycling!" - but nonetheless, it's a pretty solid precedent. Two Lombardy's on his palmares too.

Who else? Any Frenchies?

indeed and didn't mean to imply he was clean .....i can still remember the Akam interview when he explained how well he went after eating Moser's Muesli one morning, by mistake

ah...simpler times

i think even Wiggins might have uspured Mosers winter 83 - Spring 84 period with his 2012....and from where...

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.

Have seen it several places and I'm sure I have a note of it to use somewhere, for the life of me I'm not recalling where right now. Can't even remember who it was said it. But as you show with the names you've listed, there's plenty of riders through history to justify it.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Yeah, Moser is a good call. The name certainly doesn't scream out "clean cycling!" - but nonetheless, it's a pretty solid precedent. Two Lombardy's on his palmares too.

Who else? Any Frenchies?

indeed and didn't mean to imply he was clean .....i can still remember the Akam interview when he explained how well he went after eating Moser's Muesli one morning, by mistake

ah...simpler times

i think even Wiggins might have uspured Mosers winter 83 - Spring 84 period with his 2012....and from where...

Moser's muesli! That's classy. I'd be in for some of that.....

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.

Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.

Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.

Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.

For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.

For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?

No.