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Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Re:

Beech Mtn said:
On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps, did he ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Contador had surgery but Wiggins doesn't believe in marginal gains so didn't get it done :cool:
 
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
Robert5091 said:
I'm still waiting for an explaination about the attempted TUE for Wiggins at the Tour of Britain 2013. He still won the GC ,,,

He did, it was a huuuuuggggge win for Wiggins, underlying his natural Grand Tour talent. He won the massive 16km time trial then watched Cav take 3 stages in the fourth Grand Tour of the year whilst retaining the coverted leaders jersey. It was Wiggins greatest win of all time :cool:

No way Hog. AToC is the 4th GT. Has had that title for years, as verified and attested to by Phil'n'Paul. I believe the Aussie's claimed 5th GT for TDU. ToB will have to be the 6th GT, unless Cookson has corruptly used his office to change the official race rankings.
 
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
Beech Mtn said:
On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps, did he ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Contador had surgery but Wiggins doesn't believe in marginal gains so didn't get it done :cool:

:D
 
Jul 21, 2016
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Re:

Beech Mtn said:
On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wigans personal medicals.
 
Re: Sky

Love this.... from 1994, Riis's autobiography :cool:

8x0cqt.jpg
 
Re: Re:

Dan2016 said:
Beech Mtn said:
On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wiggins personal medicals.

Allergy Rhinitis (Rhinorrhea) is the diagnosis for Wiggins in the TUEs. To diagnose Rhinorrhea you have to perform an Endoscopy to see the Nasal Polyps. Not sure what else there is to explain, it's all there in each TUE? Obviously it would be nice if Fancy Bears had released 'all' of each athlete's TUE supporting documents, but they didn't for obvious reasons that many would probably invalidate their claim each TUE is doping and not theraputic and therefore weakening the 'doping' claims and purpose of the hacked leak.
The 2012 TUE also includes the additional diagnosis of Dyspnea which is basically shortening of the breath. Obviously if you have nasal polyps from the Rhinorrhea allergies blocking your breathing and Ahstma it would lead to Dyspnea.
 
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Hi Sam,

Even if the diagnosis is correct, the use of injected kenacort is a ridiculous treatment.

1. its meant to be taken via inhalation through the nose- for Rhinorrhea (hayfever)
2. It's an absolute last resort i.e. the patient is in hospital here is the indication for use in asthma patient "Patients prescribed TA will by definition be people with very difficult to control asthma ± a history of severe acute episodes"
3. 40mg is the maximum dose for asthma, see point two.

So which ever way you want to cut it. Which ever diagnosis you take. It doesn't have medical validity, It was taken to improve performance.

And as always,

You're very welcome.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

samhocking said:
Dan2016 said:
Beech Mtn said:
On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wiggins personal medicals.

Allergy Rhinitis (Rhinorrhea) is the diagnosis for Wiggins in the TUEs. To diagnose Rhinorrhea you have to perform an Endoscopy to see the Nasal Polyps. Not sure what else there is to explain, it's all there in each TUE? Obviously it would be nice if Fancy Bears had released 'all' of each athlete's TUE supporting documents, but they didn't for obvious reasons that many would probably invalidate their claim each TUE is doping and not theraputic and therefore weakening the 'doping' claims and purpose of the hacked leak.
The 2012 TUE also includes the additional diagnosis of Dyspnea which is basically shortening of the breath. Obviously if you have nasal polyps from the Rhinorrhea allergies blocking your breathing and Ahstma it would lead to Dyspnea.

I'm sorry my good doctor, but this is ~90% BS.

Definitions time:

Rhinorrhea - "The condition, commonly known as a runny nose" has absolutely nothing to do with nasal polyps. Nothing. Zilch. It's just a fancy term for lots of snot. Treatment generally consists of "blowing one's nose". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinorrhea

Nasal Polyps - "Nasal polyps are soft, painless, noncancerous growths on the lining of your nasal passages or sinuses. They hang down like teardrops or grapes. They result from chronic inflammation due to asthma, recurring infection, allergies, drug sensitivity or certain immune disorders". http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/nasal-polyps/symptoms-causes/dxc-20267326

Dyspnea - "The American Thoracic Society defines it as "a subjective experience of breathing discomfort ". Note that it is not actual shortness of breath, but the subjective feeling of shortness of breath or uncomfortable breathing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortness_of_breath

The commonality here is that all three can be caused by allergies or asthma. Treating the asthma or allergies can relieve the symptoms. Who would have thought? Allergies can cause a runny nose and a sense of discomfort? Well, just about everyone during spring time I guess.

Other than that, polyps and a runny nose have nothing to do with one another, The polyps can usually be seen without an endoscopy and have no diagnostic value for determining if you have a runny nose. Take some time and look up the treatments for runny nose, polyps and uncomfortable breathing. The polyps can be surgically removed if they don't resolve by themselves. Asthma can be treated with inhalable cortico-steroids. Allergies are treated with anti-histamines.

Triamcinolone injection is the nuclear option. If he was truly that sick, he needed surgery for the polyps and a systemic steroid injection and lots of monitoring for his severe breathing problems. There's no way he should be racing. Anecdote: my son stopped responding to his inhaler during an asthma attack. After several hours of treating him at hospital, only then did the mildly panicking doctor give him the equivalent of what Sir Wiggins received.

John Swanson
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Sky

thehog said:
Love this.... from 1994, Riis's autobiography :cool:

8x0cqt.jpg

Vaughters said something similar with Garmin. Remember he would quit the team if they had a positive, so called internal testing to keep riders clean. All BS.

Sky took it to another level and got a lot of UK fans with typewriters to spread the message. UK fans swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
 
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Re: Re:

samhocking said:
Dan2016 said:
Beech Mtn said:
On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wiggins personal medicals.

Allergy Rhinitis (Rhinorrhea) is the diagnosis for Wiggins in the TUEs. To diagnose Rhinorrhea you have to perform an Endoscopy to see the Nasal Polyps. Not sure what else there is to explain, it's all there in each TUE? Obviously it would be nice if Fancy Bears had released 'all' of each athlete's TUE supporting documents, but they didn't for obvious reasons that many would probably invalidate their claim each TUE is doping and not theraputic and therefore weakening the 'doping' claims and purpose of the hacked leak.
The 2012 TUE also includes the additional diagnosis of Dyspnea which is basically shortening of the breath. Obviously if you have nasal polyps from the Rhinorrhea allergies blocking your breathing and Ahstma it would lead to Dyspnea.

Sam, see John Swanson above for comprehensive answer...
I'll just add, what I think you're doing is unconsciously presenting speculations as facts due to false inferences. All we can see are the TUE's and that Guardian article, and all they tell us is: single endoscopy June 28th 2011, showing allergic rhinitis. Nasal polyps are not mentioned anywhere at any time. Rhinitis is simply nasal inflammation, runny nose etc.

Where are you going with this? (I'm curious)...I get the impression you think he has some slam-dunk medical proof that it was all legit - in which case, why sit on it all this time? His rep has been trashed. It's just hayfever medicals, not some embarrassing condition. (And this is all ignoring how far the story moved from just TUE's innit)

EDIT: Kenalog is serious stuff. First result from google ''hayfever kenalog'':
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2357775/Desperate-hay-fever-sufferers-turn-private-clinics-wonder-cure-jab-NHS-deems-toxic.html
 
Jul 21, 2016
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Re:

Zypherov said:
Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Debatable, if you mean literally coming first in the race.
Wigans and all the rest are incredible riders though, no doubts about that.
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
samhocking said:
Dan2016 said:
Beech Mtn said:
On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wiggins personal medicals.

Allergy Rhinitis (Rhinorrhea) is the diagnosis for Wiggins in the TUEs. To diagnose Rhinorrhea you have to perform an Endoscopy to see the Nasal Polyps. Not sure what else there is to explain, it's all there in each TUE? Obviously it would be nice if Fancy Bears had released 'all' of each athlete's TUE supporting documents, but they didn't for obvious reasons that many would probably invalidate their claim each TUE is doping and not theraputic and therefore weakening the 'doping' claims and purpose of the hacked leak.
The 2012 TUE also includes the additional diagnosis of Dyspnea which is basically shortening of the breath. Obviously if you have nasal polyps from the Rhinorrhea allergies blocking your breathing and Ahstma it would lead to Dyspnea.

I'm sorry my good doctor, but this is ~90% BS.

Definitions time:

Rhinorrhea - "The condition, commonly known as a runny nose" has absolutely nothing to do with nasal polyps. Nothing. Zilch. It's just a fancy term for lots of snot. Treatment generally consists of "blowing one's nose". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinorrhea

Nasal Polyps - "Nasal polyps are soft, painless, noncancerous growths on the lining of your nasal passages or sinuses. They hang down like teardrops or grapes. They result from chronic inflammation due to asthma, recurring infection, allergies, drug sensitivity or certain immune disorders". http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/nasal-polyps/symptoms-causes/dxc-20267326

Dyspnea - "The American Thoracic Society defines it as "a subjective experience of breathing discomfort ". Note that it is not actual shortness of breath, but the subjective feeling of shortness of breath or uncomfortable breathing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortness_of_breath

The commonality here is that all three can be caused by allergies or asthma. Treating the asthma or allergies can relieve the symptoms. Who would have thought? Allergies can cause a runny nose and a sense of discomfort? Well, just about everyone during spring time I guess.

Other than that, polyps and a runny nose have nothing to do with one another, The polyps can usually be seen without an endoscopy and have no diagnostic value for determining if you have a runny nose. Take some time and look up the treatments for runny nose, polyps and uncomfortable breathing. The polyps can be surgically removed if they don't resolve by themselves. Asthma can be treated with inhalable cortico-steroids. Allergies are treated with anti-histamines.

Triamcinolone injection is the nuclear option. If he was truly that sick, he needed surgery for the polyps and a systemic steroid injection and lots of monitoring for his severe breathing problems. There's no way he should be racing. Anecdote: my son stopped responding to his inhaler during an asthma attack. After several hours of treating him at hospital, only then did the mildly panicking doctor give him the equivalent of what Sir Wiggins received.

John Swanson

Polyp formation in the nasal cavity is either from allergic 'rhinitis' or cystic fibrosis. Rhinorrhea is simply one of it's symptoms. That's how my GP explained what allergic 'rhinitis' is and he would consider prescribing what Wiggins had if the ENT considered it serious-enough up until a few years ago. He said in 2011 he was prescribing it for those with long-term suffering and important life events where guaranteed relief was required or the more topical corticosteroids were causing other issues from long-term maximal use topically in the nose and in some cases simply no longer effective treatment. He said today, most of those patients get an annual injection privately because it's now against NHS guidelines in all but the most extreme cases.

The following is my Doctors guidance notes on using Triamcinolone for Rhinitis treatment.

UK and international guidelines suggest the management of hayfever should start with allergen avoidance
and if that fails, treatment with an antihistamine. Where these treatments are ineffective, regular intranasal
corticosteroids should be used. Intranasal steroids are more effective if used at the start of the season
and in the presence of established nasal congestion, a topical decongestant may be used for up to one
week as a pre-treatment. (1,2) Occasionally for patients with severe symptoms not responding to topical
steroids and antihistamines and when stringent control of symptoms is required, for example sitting exam
or getting married, it may be reasonable to supplement maintenance treatment with a brief course of oral
corticosteroids. These should however be used in the lowest effective dose (e.g. prednisolone up to 20 mg
daily for up to 5 days). Both UK and international guidelines advise against the routine use of injectable
corticosteroids for hayfever/

Triamcinolone (Kenalog) can be given IM - 4 mg is equivalent to 5mg of prednisolone and the usual dose
given is between 40-80mg in a season. The licensed indications include use in seasonal allergies in patients
who do not respond to conventional therapy.

I believe the above guidance comes from the British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology ENT subcommittee - Rhinitis Management Guidelines
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Zypherov said:
Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

add in HGH, Testosterone, epo, clen, aicar etc etc and it puts you in with a shout. :lol:
Aicair is the hidden ingredient that people know about but haven't proven yet. This wonderful fat burner also retains muscle mass and power, making heavy pursuiters climbing legends.

At the time of Wiggins transformation, aiciar was just a whisper in the peloton, but it was there and it was available.
 
My points are related more to any investigation into Wiggins TUEs not being therapeutic in terms of him requiring evidence if it ever came to that either for himself to prove innocence or to disprove theories the package was Triamcinolone and he received an injection. He has access to all the information and ENT reports if he wants to do both once UKAD allow him to speak and release documents.

The history of his first Triamcinilone injection really begins in 2008 and earlier and as the years go by his doctors from before Garmin, within Garmin and then Sky move him to more powerful Corticosteroid allergy treatments that follow the British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology advice pretty much to the letter. So assuming the documents back up what is claimed the TUE itself can be justified not only legally, but ethically too because that is in line with those setting the treatment guidance at least in UK at the time.

>3 years before 2011 (so at least from 2007) Maximal treatment using Flixotide inhaler + Ventolin, Clarityn, Avamys & Opticrom
2007 -Cofidis - Flixotide inhaler + Ventolin, Clarityn, Avamys & Opticrom (assume Salbutomol too?)
2008 - Team High Road Salbutomol TUE + allowance for 250ng of Fluticosone Corticosteroid nasal spray per day also + Antihistamines etc from above list
2009 - Garmin–Slipstream Salbutomol TUE + More powerful inhaled Budesonide Corticosteroid TUE replaces last years Fluticosone Corticosteroid + Antihistamines etc from above list
2010 - Team Sky TUE no longer required for Salbutomol or inhaled Budesonide Corticosteroid under WADA, so why there are no 2010 TUEs + Antihistamines etc from above list. Treatment at sky same as at Garmin previous year it seems.
2011 - Team Sky Triamcinolone TUE replaces Budesonide & Flixotide after Endoscopy despite maximal therapy of Budesonide & Flixotide etc. Assume still taking Salbutomol within WADA limits.
2012 - Team Sky As 2011 with additional ENT documents
2013 - Team Sky As 2012 with additional ENT documents

So he went from oral antihistamines at Cofidis to Corticosteroid nasal sprays at High Road, to more powerful Corticosteroid inhalers at Garmin to injected IM Corticosteroid after a year at Sky which is the treatment progression British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology advised. i.e. you can't go straight into an injection, you have to exhaust all oral treatments first to maximal therapy first according to their guidance and this is what the ENT confirms has been done.

My overriding argument is for Wiggins to want to apply illegally for an IM Triamcinilone injection in 2011 and for CAS to be satisfied it was, the history and supporting medical evidence already exists or not at WADA and passes back through doctors and consultants while riding at Garmin, High Road & Cofidis. Sky might have looked at his medical history at Garmin, High Road & Cofidis and noticed the Corticosteroid theme throughout his road career so far and then decided there was enough history that with a fake endoscopy and fabricated maximal treatment in 2010 his first year at Sky, it would allow an injection in 2011 TUE. The claims so far are not that the TUE was illegally applied for and/or illegally granted using false documents. The history of treatment looking at Wiggins several TUE notes seems to build the history of long-term allergy treatment an expert witness such as a Dr from British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology might be called on by CAS should any of this ever go to CAS.
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
Zypherov said:
Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.
It is logical if you assume perfect testing. If he was cheating some other way as well, he would've been caught for that too. It defies prior knowledge and common sense more than logic imo.
 

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