Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[DirtyWorks]

At least not for us those that think climbing times indicate there is less severe doping in the sport now, which opens the door a touch for clean riding to get the occasional result.

Agreed. But it's relative. No riders are dying and presumably they are able to sleep the night through. Just like the 90's though, a ridiculous train blows the peloton apart.

I think a good comparison is with Leopard-Trek.

The Hog's team? He and his dealer were both named and shamed by USADA. Maybe Contador's team?? Wasn't the Saxo Bank dope dealer just named and shamed by USADA too?

 

[VeloCity]

I'm beginning to wonder if some posters here have ever ridden a bike up a big hill, let alone in a competitive situation.

As for trashing everybody, they didn't. Evans was crossed the line in front of Wiggins.

We've seen this many times before, one team dominant over the others, with even their domestiques out-climbing some of the best climbers in the world.

One thing cycling fans have learned over the years is that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it usually turns out to be a duck.

 

[thehog]

I fail to see how Froome is more suspicious than Wiggins. They both had out of the blue breakout performances. Wiggins's came at 29, Froome's at 25.

You'll have to help me here. Outside of the Vuelta where has Froome achieved results that might indicate his talents?

I actually don't know a lot about him. But he rarely appears to perform anywhere else.

 

[thehog]

The good old air of doper's arrogance. Ive missed that for a while.

I know! When you're fill to the brim on the good stuff you start to believe nothing can beat you.

I just hope journalists this time around call it out.

 

[issoisso]

Absolutely disgusting.

I couldn't help but call the guy out on his bull**** to his face.
What's the over/under on how long till he rages at me?

 

[Galic Ho]

I apologise if you already have (long thread) but can you post your facts and strong suspicions (re: medical team, drugs etc.)?

We are probably in agreement regarding the general state of affairs but i must challenge your assertion regarding Wiggin's 2010 season. There are factors other than 'training programme' which can affect a rider's performance.

Other guys mentioned the names of the doctors around pg.50, maybe a few after that. I actually didn't know he was Thorpie's doctor. Explains a lot actually. I also dropped the name of the drug people assumed Wiggins and other pro cyclists were using, combined with others (Clenbuterol is one that can be used) to get his weight down so he'd be a GC rider.

Like what? The money equation? Wiggins got a massive pay upgrade. Take a guess how much?

Fact is Wiggins 2010 season was garbage. Run the numbers on it, know the following turn in performance he gave in 2011 and 2012 and join the dots. They were trialing their own doping program. Took them over a year to get all the kinks and bends out of it. Now it's fully certified and it works.

All the other explanations are covered. Wiggins was a running joke here during 2010. Well in the pro forum. That's how bad he was. Same story though from Sky. Same PR team. No results. Each year the ridiculous nature grew and grew, albeit along with the ridiculous results that were laughable. If it looks like doping, smells like doping and copies the PR playbook of the biggest doping team in history...yeah it's doping. Sky actually had no major issues in 2010.

One thing did occur to me. Did Dimspace, aka TeamSkyFans, leave the forum after last years Vuelta? If so, does anyone think his absence has anything to do with not copping ridicule for being a diehard Sky and Wiggins fan? In other words, he got out of here when he noticed the doping smoke signals and didn't want to face the inevitable?

 

[Mr Pumpy]

I see you are all still ignoring the elephant in the room....Evans.

 

[taiwan]

You'll have to help me here. Outside of the Vuelta where has Froome achieved results that might indicate his talents?

I actually don't know a lot about him. But he rarely appears to perform anywhere else.

I had asked this myself. These are the best climbing performances I noticed on CQ.

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=8201 (looks like a break though)

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=10427

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=10875

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=11453

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=17970

So they do exist, as well as decent TT results. Nothing too dominant though, and nothing in GTs.

 

[issoisso]

I see you are all still ignoring the elephant in the room....Evans.

BINGO

Oh sorry, you see we have a bingo card of all the tired arguments fanboys never fail to use, and "What about [insert rider whose doping has been talked about at length in this forum] ?" was the only one missing on your card.

He's been discussed to death. As have all the other obvious dopers. He just isn't as much because nearly everything was said years ago on this forum. Meanwhile, Froome is relatively new so he's still not "burnt out" as a discussion topic.

 

[Mr Pumpy]

Fact is Wiggins 2010 season was garbage. Run the numbers on it, know the following turn in performance he gave in 2011 and 2012 and join the dots. They were trialing their own doping program. Took them over a year to get all the kinks and bends out of it. Now it's fully certified and it works.

Yeah the guy has come out of nowhere

(nowhere being 4th in the tour the year before 2010, and 8 Olympic and Worlds Gold medals before that..ha ha ha ha )

Edit: forgot his two world records in 2008. Yeah he was a nobody until 2011

 

[Mr Pumpy]

BINGO
He's been discussed to death. As have all the other obvious dopers.

Well yes of course, he's won something so he must be a doper.

So who are you a fan of? Can't be anybody that has won anything.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Wiggins' was now three years ago and we're used to the "new" Wiggins. Yes, that transformation was suspicious, but in respect of today's performance, that he was there at the end wasn't suspicious in any way other than Wiggins' improvements generally being suspicious. Froome is more suspicious only in that his breakout period of about six weeks last year was to date his only period of good results and therefore he could have been seen as a flash in the pan.

That post you quoted was referring solely to the antics of today's stage rather than the riders in general.

david harmon ‏@spokesmen
Froome and Wiggins dictate and Mr Vuelta, captain Cobo hobbles in 7.30+ down

 

[Fergoose]

The Hog's team? He and his dealer were both named and shamed by USADA. Maybe Contador's team??

Hah, sorry not Radio Shack or their successor RadioSchleck. Purely the unadulterated Leopard Trek. Their performances showed what I’d expect a top team trying to repeatedly boss mountain stages in a GT should look like (i.e. mixed success).

Fact is Wiggins 2010 season was garbage. Run the numbers on it, know the following turn in performance he gave in 2011 and 2012 and join the dots. They were trialing their own doping program. Took them over a year to get all the kinks and bends out of it. Now it's fully certified and it works.

If that is the case then why didn’t Wiggins just hook Sky up with the the guys he must therefore of had in his corner at Garmin that had juiced him up so much in 2009 he only just missed a TdF podium behind the powerful trio of Contador*, Schleck & Armstrong*? I think a few of your dots may have been flies that died on your paper.

 

[taiwan]

Yeah the guy has come out of nowhere

(nowhere being 4th in the tour the year before 2010, and 8 Olympic and Worlds Gold medals before that..ha ha ha ha )

Nice. Those for riding GTs?

 

[hrotha]

Well yes of course, he's won something so he must be a doper.

So who are you a fan of? Can't be anybody that has won anything.

Why do you equate "being a fan" with "willingly closing your eyes and shouting lalala"?

 

[issoisso]

Well yes of course, he's won something so he must be a doper.

Or maybe it's because he's worked with Dr. Ferrari and rode for several teams that have been proven to have organized team-wide doping programs.

So who are you a fan of? Can't be anybody that has won anything.

Who am I a fan of? Mostly retired riders who are obvious proven dopers.
You see, I can actually separate who the riders I like are from whether or not the facts indicate they are doped.

The fact that you immediately equal who I think is clean with who I'm a fan of shows that you can't even conceive of the idea of separating things and not being biased.

And that's very very very sad. I feel sorry for you.

EDIT: Or, in less words: What hrotha said

 

[jilbiker]

You know I raised it at the beginning of the year in the clinic that Froome's 'disappearance' during regular season and appearing at the big event to dazzle is suspicious. Smack smells of doping. His excuse of 'I was sick' is stale, I really do not buy it. No form and then sudden great form.

And Wiggins, he will claim he has been consistent throughout the season. True that, except this 'new' programme and to top it a swimming coach. I think almost-all pro swimmers are juiced, their physique tells me the story.

Todays race showed me Wiggins is no climber but then Evans is no better than him.

I think we are just a hair's whisper from a scandal.....well that will make this TDF interesting, it was already a snooze-fest with just 3 lame mountain Finishes

 

[Galic Ho]

Does anyone have concrete information regarding the 'programme' Wiggins used to drop 12kgs?

There are many options. But those are for people with higher body fat percentages. Wiggins was a pro bike rider. Olympic Gold medallist. He had no fat to lose. Not that much. He lost functional muscle mass...note you cannot choose where to lose it, it just goes. Oh and he somehow gained more power. Weird huh? Granted that any normal person who be gobsmacked at what they'd need to do to increase their performance, but no, it's a pro athlete in question.

There are a number of ways. None of them are easy. There is a reason it's never talked about. Nothing legit would work. Nothing. You'd lose the weight and go slower. Especially in a chrono. Wiggins improved in every category.

Check this out:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/01/science/sci-couchpill1

 

[Caruut]

Really wishing the French will remember an old rivalry, remember that they hate us Brits and do something about this.

For the record, I am a fan of several riders who I'm pretty sure have doped. Of course I wish they hadn't, but c'est la vie.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I only came on here to look at this thread. Apoplexy predicted and recieved.... No one looked at climb times, wattages, anything? Still why bother, you guys know it all anyway, armchair cynics. Pathetic. Give me a cheat and I say punish him, but until you have any evidence or smoking gun, pack it in.

Indeed. We are all haters! Noob.

Today I had a flashback to la Vie Claire of 1985. Then I woke up, it weren't Hinault/LeMond/Ruttiman/Bauer etc etc, it were Wigging/Froome/Porte/Rogers.

Just plain old laughable. How in the hell are doctors like Leinders still working in this 'sport'. Comedy capers. Just look at the way Froome sprints away from Evans like he is on the flat. Get outta here. Sanchez being dropped like an amateur by Porte? Gotta love this 'sport'.

Sad, sad day.

 

[jilbiker]

There are many options. But those are for people with higher body fat percentages. Wiggins was a pro bike rider. Olympic Gold medallist. He had no fat to lose. Not that much. He lost functional muscle mass...note you cannot choose where to lose it, it just goes. Oh and he somehow gained more power. Weird huh? Granted that any normal person who be gobsmacked at what they'd need to do to increase their performance, but no, it's a pro athlete in question.

There are a number of ways. None of them are easy. There is a reason it's never talked about. Nothing legit would work. Nothing. You'd lose the weight and go slower. Especially in a chrono. Wiggins improved in every category.

Check this out:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/01/science/sci-couchpill1

I have spent sometime previously in bodybuilding, reading and working out. The only way to lose weight so fast yet maintain your ability to generate as much or even more power than you had before is via juice. All done in a short time space is juice. Else you looking at loss of power, form, rebuilding and reconditioning, a couple of years.

 

[Galic Ho]

I see you are all still ignoring the elephant in the room....Evans.

Oh please by all means go and start a thread about it. Mapei Clinic. Google it. Google who use to run it before he died. Two famous clients. Evans and Basso.

Did you think it was a coincidence Cadel Evans rides for BMC? Which famous doper, who was stripped of his Tour victory, also rode on a BMC bike? Floyd. The team he rode for, Phonak, was named after the company it's owner has. That guy, Andy Rihs, also owns BMC. Same DS too from when Floyd won.

This is all very old news. Nobody is questioning Cadel...this is a Sky thread. About the whole Sky team. Not one solitary lone rider from BMC who had nobody with him whilst half of Sky was pounding everyone into the ground.

@thehog. I read the Wiggins article as well. Cocky and arrogant. Their language and choice of words is telling. Both Wiggins and Froome had some very choice words. They know this is theirs to lose. Those numbers Wiggins dropped, even for 6km and just over 16 minutes, man they are high. What I'd expect people to realistically be doing, would be nearer to Menchov. Can't wait to see how big this thread is after Monday. They'll make believers out of most people.

 

[filipo]

Ah, the good old days!

 

[Galic Ho]

I have spent sometime previously in bodybuilding, reading and working out. The only way to lose weight so fast yet maintain your ability to generate as much or even more power than you had before is via juice. All done in a short time space is juice. Else you looking at loss of power, form, rebuilding and reconditioning, a couple of years.

Exactly. Even for a body builder, it takes ages to rebuild muscle. You simply don't drop weight and not lose power. Putting muscle on quickly is easy with drugs. Losing it and maintaining power and muscular endurance...that's where big money comes in. Ain't cheap. Very sophisticated.

Anyone who says otherwise is more than welcome to spend some time with me in a gym. There is a point where if you lose anymore weight clean, without drugs, you notice your power doesn't quite feel like it is there. I've done it. This BTW is at very low body fat percentages. I'm talking 10% max. Heck, when I've been in my best shape I can tell when I've put on even a few hundred grams. Your body when in top shape really is that highly tuned and you can read it's shape very well. There is an imaginary line you learn to read, you go under it, your power drops noticeably. You literally feel it.

 

[Escarabajo]

Well that was just ridiculous. How anyone who's followed cycling for a while can look at that finish and not raise at least two eyebrows is beyond me.

Of course journalists are always completely oblivious until someone tests positive, then we learn that they knew all along.

+1.

This is getting ridicolous. I am cheering for everybody else but Team Sky. I did the same thing during the US Postal era and that didn't work out right.