Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[pelodee]

Right. Although not exclusively, and they do have their Sky Sports channels.

Yes several Sky Sports channels.

Main UK tv providers (satellite/cable/etc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_in_the_United_Kingdom#Main_providers

 

[ellenbrook2001]

sky

the behaviour of SKY hes weird MICHAEL RODGERS has been of the off side for 3 years doing nothing then now he can go has a bullet in the mountain ,also 3 of hes team could almost be with WEGGINGS near the top he never happen before the last kms the leader always alone then doing the damage ,even the team has prepared the tour those guy never have a bad day the one did the lead up still have the leg too win the stage hmm exactly same has LANCE AMSTRONG what ever peoples say at such level you cannot claim has drinking coca cola, then in an interview WIGGINS has been very rude you do not swear when kids are idol of him same attitude has LANCE .i believed WEGGINS going have many enemy in the peloton the way they ride hes pathetic

 

[pedaling squares]

Something does not smell right. It's almost as if the ASO wants assurance that everything is on track for a Wiggins win, which would bring future revenue to the ASO in the form of increased value of the British media rights.

It does smell a bit like 1999. New hero able to pave the way for millions of new fans and all...

This paragraph from the Bicycling article is telling.

But this year Wiggins has been a class apart. He’s won three major stage races so far this year. He’s been almost untouchable in time trials, and his team rides with a clinical level of control not seen in pro racing since U.S. Postal.

Here we have a talented rider who is performing at a level far above what was expected of him only a few years ago, on a team that is performing so far above any other team as to make it a joke, getting asked a fairly soft question about allegations of drug use, who replies with an attack on the character of those who would question him, and who then leaves without facing additional questions. It is starting to look a little like a movie I've seen before.

EDIT: Yeah, what Ellen said.

 

[taiwan]

http://www.itv.com/tourdefrance/2011/news/itv-extends-tour-de-france-deal-until-2015/

OK well I can't spot a quid pro quo or a reason for money from Sky --> ASO then, atm.

 

[thehog]

the behaviour of SKY hes weird MICHAEL RODGERS has been of the off side for 3 years doing nothing then now he can go has a bullet in the mountain ,also 3 of hes team could almost be with WEGGINGS near the top he never happen before the last kms the leader always alone then doing the damage ,even the team has prepared the tour those guy never have a bad day the one did the lead up still have the leg too win the stage hmm exactly same has LANCE AMSTRONG what ever peoples say at such level you cannot claim has drinking coca cola, then in an interview WIGGINS has been very rude you do not swear when kids are idol of him same attitude has LANCE .i believed WEGGINS going have many enemy in the peloton the way they ride hes pathetic

Earlier this year I said if Sky go 123 on a MTF there will be a rider protest. We'll see..

 

[Zarvinov]

Yeah does Sky have the broadcast rights to the Tour in the UK, or is it just ES, or is ES Sky? There's a transaction there somewhere, surely.

British Eurosport is a subscription channel on Sky Television and they broadcast live coverage of the Tour.

The Tour is also broadcast live on ITV4. A UK channel also. They have an agreement with ASO. Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwen provide the commentary.

 

[taiwan]

Is it just as BroDeal says, that the increased profile in the UK is worthwhile enough for ASO?

 

[thehog]

“It would be nice to be part of it in a positive way, because there aren’t a lot of Tour winners who you can believe in,” Wiggins told L’Équipe. “For the first time last year, you had a Tour winner who everyone could believe in [Evans – ed]. He is a fantastic ambassador for the sport, he works hard, he didn’t win by showing off, but with great determination. So to be able to follow on from somebody like him would be nice, rather than doing it after somebody had a positive test hanging over his head for a year or two.”

Wiggins himself has undergone a remarkable metamorphosis in recent seasons, changing from a track and time trial specialist into a grand tour podium finisher. He had never finished higher than 123rd in a grand tour before 2009, when he emerged at 29 years of age to take fourth place at the Tour de France.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-wants-to-be-a-credible-tour-de-france-winner

 

[pelodee]

Is it just as BroDeal says, that the increased profile in the UK is worthwhile enough for ASO?

in light of the Sky presentation to ASO, is this common practice for teams? Or do they usually meet race orgs through AIGCP?
"we meet once a year with Aso, individually, and many times via aigcp. Usually it's very casual."

what usually happens when you meet individually? Similar to the Sky presentation?
"they ask who we are sending to Qatar, picardie, and Paris-nice, i ***** at them a bit, and then we have lunch. With cheese."

what usually happens when you meet individually? Similar to the Sky presentation?
"I'm sure sky had some fancy video with James Earl Jones as the narrator: "at team sky, we believe the sky is the limit....""

when you meet with ASO & discuss which riders attend which race, who's in control. You or them?
".... Errrrrr... It's a tug of war. Then cheese."

 

[Zarvinov]

Wiggins finished only 37 seconds behind a charged Lance Armstrong in the final overall general classification of the 2009 Tour de France. It is quite apparent from that statistic alone that the chances of Wiggins being a doper are high. A non doper cannot compete with a doper.

 

[Bala Verde]

Is it just as BroDeal says, that the increased profile in the UK is worthwhile enough for ASO?

Don't broadcasters make money like this:

shows --> Viewers --> advertising $ --> show more popular --> viewership up/density up --> advertising $$$

Also, for ASO, it might become commercially attractive to start organizing races in the UK. If they can in Oman, perhaps they might come up with a race in the UK when there's enough interest. Can they take over the tour of Britain?

They were probably pleasantly surprised with the London start turn out anyway.

I dont think they met with sky to rig the game. If anything, perhaps they called them in after some of the sky performances raised some eyebrows at ASO HQ?

After all, so many of these tour winners had been stripped of their titles in the last decade or two. Hadn't they just held a ceremony for schleck? Major embarrassment.

It almost looks like a pre-screening, asking: "Can this potential tour winner be trusted, show us the details." Perhaps when looking at the rider's details, they thought the profiles could pass the doping test; could that mean the information allayed fears of doping, or allayed fears of them getting tripped up in a doping scandal?

I wonder if they also met with BMW, katiusha and liquigas. If not, I don't see why any team would meet with the organizer of a race, to highlight riders' performances.

Does JV have any feedback, how common this is etc, on this?

 

[Bala Verde]

Wiggins finished only 37 seconds behind a charged Lance Armstrong in the final overall general classification of the 2009 Tour de France. It is quite apparent from that statistic alone that the chances of Wiggins being a doper are high. A non doper cannot compete with a doper.

B wiggins was a 5 on the UCI suspicion index released the day before the 2010 TDF

EBH a 0

Cavendish a 2

Eisel a 4

Knees a 6

Rogers a 7

Sioutsou an 8

http://inrng.com/2011/05/lequipe-publishes-uci-suspicion-index/

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? My point is that all we have are opinions. You, and we, can have all the suspicions we like, but until we have at least something tangible about the riders in the form of dope tests, blood patterns etc, all we have are opinions, not facts. It may look suspicious, but we have no facts, no stories from riders at this years Tour, no previous drugs transgressions from Wiggins and Froome, no riders coming forward with even innuendo that they've done it. Nothing, just a team that is performing to a point where it rouses suspicion because they have dominated so far. Let's see, hey? Opinions, no facts at the moment.

As for the comment about watching, again, you deliberately misread me. Some people on here are so negative and paranoid about every single cyclist being a rampant, immoral doper that it DOES beg the question, why are you watching then??

Here's something tangible for you.

Shane Stokes cycling‏@SSbike
Geert Leinders - he was with Rabobank when it had a tolerance, Jan Koerts said he helped him stay below 50%

Rabobank tolerated doping on cycling team, De Rooy claims

Medical staff said to have overseen riders' activities

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabobank-tolerated-doping-on-cycling-team-de-rooy-claims

The French newspaper L'Equipe on Friday published a list of all the riders participating in last year's Tour de France and their individual scores of suspicion for doping from a confidential International Cycling Union document.

As explained by the newspaper, only the scores of zero and one meant that the riders had a very clean record. Ratings from two to four were based on stable passports which nevertheless showed a rare abnormality at a precise time. From five upwards, the comments associated to the rider files started to become much more precise, "even affirmative" according to L'Equipe.

From six to ten, the circumstantial evidence of possible doping was "overwhelming". According to the paper, some of the riders located to the top of list have already been singled out by the biological passport and evaluated by the panel of nine experts, even if no procedure was opened. "Still, some of the files' commentaries are damning. Recurrent abnormal profiles, enormous fluctuations, identification of the used doping product and means of administration..." wrote L'Equipe's anti-doping expert journalist Damien Ressiot.

5 ...Bradley Wiggins

6 ...Christian Knees... Geraint Thomas

7 ...Michael Rogers

8 ...Kanstantsin Siutsou

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ucis-suspicious-list-leaked-from-2010-tour-de-france

Mørkeberg has just finished a Ph. D. dissertation entitled Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples, and is working on a method to trace this method of doping.

His aforementioned Tour de France study catalogued seven riders in the 2007 race, revealing lower hemoglobin and lower hematocrit (percentage of red blood cells in whole blood) on day 19 when compared to their pre-Tour reading. On average hemoglobin dropped 11.5% and hematocrit fell by 12.1%, keeping in line with physiological expectations.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/385285/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france-blood-values.html

JV's stance is that it's cleaner, not that they eradicated doping. It's fine to say you ignore facts and will go with your belief.

This is JV's (public) stance.

“As a whole the race is clean,” said Vaughters, who rode with Armstrong on the U.S. Postal Team in 1998 and 1999 before retiring in 2003. “I can’t speak to every single athlete, but the probability of the Tour being won by a clean rider is much higher than it being won by a doped rider.”

http://news.discovery.com/adventure/tour-de-france-drugs-120629.html

festinagirl ‏@festinagirl
@vaughters Zorxoli's statement that Drugs now “have a lower impact on the riders’ performance” seems key - not eradicated but controlled?

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters
@festinagirl I would say controlled to the point that it's almost irrelevant, from a pure performance perspective.

http://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/218735807463297024

I have no respect for that man, because he obviously doesn't respect us fans.

I too also suspect Sky probably have an extra 5-10% they can hit if they have to. Which leaves me asking, where the hell did they get enough blood bags from? There is only so much one can take out and re-infuse. I'm perplexed...either way, here is something to think about. Andy Murray lost Wimbledon. A sign perhaps of Britain choking? Of them failing to come up short? If they smoke Evans, then that'll confirm thehogs impressions about Sky having another leg over the competition. Worse, it'll start a doping race amongst other teams. Really hope the police catch someone doing something.

If you infuse before a week-long stage race, shouldn't your Hb mass be roughly the same by the end of the race? Thus allowing you to withdraw the same amount and just go back to your pre-race level? I don't think you have to waste blood bags if you only compete for 1 week and then go away for 1 month.

 

[Wigwan]

B wiggins was a 5 on the UCI suspicion index released the day before the 2010 TDF

EBH a 0

Cavendish a 2

Eisel a 4

Knees a 6

Rogers a 7

Sioutsou an 8

http://inrng.com/2011/05/lequipe-publishes-uci-suspicion-index/i

it would be very interesting if L'Équipe can fin this year list.. Some Sky's riders would be at 11...

 

[BroDeal]

Is it just as BroDeal says, that the increased profile in the UK is worthwhile enough for ASO?

There is a long history of GT organizers adapting their courses to aid a desired winner. Usually it is done to make the race more suitable for the hometown boy. The amount of time trialing kilometers and the amount of climbing are altered, depending on the strengths of the national racer. While I don't think the ASO literally has a deal to let Wiggins win, I would not be surprised if the ASO decreased the importance of climbing in recent routes while thinking of giving riders like Evans and Wiggins a hellping hand.

 

[mastersracer]

It wouldn't surprise me if Sky were doping, but I don't see the logic of these charges.

Team domination, therefore, doping. Precedent: USPS. Counter-example: La vie Claire dominated a few tours (Hinault, Lemond, Hampsten). Since it's all about relative performance, if a doped team can dominate a doped peloton, a clean(er) team can dominate a clean(er) peloton.

The true litmus test is absolute performance, not relative performance. So far, the #s coming out of Stage 7 final climb are not unworldly. There were, by contrast, a number of GC pretenders who had bad final climbs. Leipheimer, Basso, Kloden, Gesink. And the field is its weakest for a long time -even weaker than 2008 and is without the top 2 podium finishers from last year.

Evans is matching Sky's performance despite being isolated on climbs and even had a dig today at the end.

American basketball, soccer, etc. all have examples of teams stacking players. Isn't it possible that Sky simply has more depth and better team organization?

 

[maxmartin]

B wiggins was a 5 on the UCI suspicion index released the day before the 2010 TDF

EBH a 0

Cavendish a 2

Eisel a 4

Knees a 6

Rogers a 7

Sioutsou an 8

http://inrng.com/2011/05/lequipe-publishes-uci-suspicion-index/i

that is before he becoming crazy good, wondering what is his number right now? Anybody in hack into UCI?

 

[BroDeal]

B wiggins was a 5 on the UCI suspicion index released the day before the 2010 TDF

EBH a 0

Cavendish a 2

Eisel a 4

Knees a 6

Rogers a 7

Sioutsou an 8

http://inrng.com/2011/05/lequipe-publishes-uci-suspicion-index/i

If I remember correctly, that list is somewhat distorted in that it was for a small window of time before the TdF. Riders who peaked for spring may have been sevens or eights four months before but had dropped to ones or twos in June.

 

[maxmartin]

If I remember correctly, that list is somewhat distorted in that it was for a small window of time before the TdF. Riders who peaked for spring may have been sevens or eights four months before but had dropped to ones or twos in June.

that is why nobody use this list to charge anyone, still it give you an indication who MIGHT be doping

 

[BroDeal]

Evans is matching Sky's performance despite being isolated on climbs and even had a dig today at the end.

Evans is ten times the man Rogers is and at least five times the man of any of the rest of the Sky climbers.

 

[Caruut]

It wouldn't surprise me if Sky were doping, but I don't see the logic of these charges.

Team domination, therefore, doping. Precedent: USPS. Counter-example: La vie Claire dominated a few tours (Hinault, Lemond, Hampsten). Since it's all about relative performance, if a doped team can dominate a doped peloton, a clean(er) team can dominate a clean(er) peloton.

The true litmus test is absolute performance, not relative performance. So far, the #s coming out of Stage 7 final climb are not unworldly. There were, by contrast, a number of GC pretenders who had bad final climbs. Leipheimer, Basso, Kloden, Gesink. And the field is its weakest for a long time -even weaker than 2008 and is without the top 2 podium finishers from last year.

Evans is matching Sky's performance despite being isolated on climbs and even had a dig today at the end.

American basketball, soccer, etc. all have examples of teams stacking players. Isn't it possible that Sky simply has more depth and better team organization?

Hinault and Lemond were beasts from a young age. Along with Fignon, the standout stage racers of their era, on one team. It's like sticking Contador and Brother Andy on one team - obviously they're going to do quite well. That was a clear example of just buying up the top talent. Sky have done that, to an extent, but then they have guys performing far above and beyond their historical performances, like Rogers. Added to this, it's often in the exact same manner as what we now know to be a rotten team doping program.

(for all you Clinic haterz still for some reason reading this forum, I use 'know' to mean 'think beyond reasonable doubt'; after all if we are to use 'know' in a sense of a 100% certainty, then we 'know' nothing)

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

that is why nobody use this list to charge anyone, still it give you an indication who MIGHT be doping

If by MIGHT you mean there is "OVERWHELMING" circumstantial evidence against them according to the experts with access to bio-passport data.
A low number doesn't necessarily mean anything, but a high one certainly does.

 

[pelodee]

Also, for ASO, it might become commercially attractive to start organizing races in the UK. If they can in Oman, perhaps they might come up with a race in the UK when there's enough interest. Can they take over the tour of Britain?

http://road.cc/content/news/54945-b...der-shortlist-organise-london-festival-cyling

I wonder if they also met with BMW, katiusha and liquigas. If not, I don't see why any team would meet with the organizer of a race, to highlight riders' performances.

Does JV have any feedback, how common this is etc, on this?

How about a better source:

It's a genuine question: do other top tier teams, as @TeamSky claim, regularly meet with race organizers?
"yes, at least with the big ones like RCS, Flanders Classics etc. The same teams are discussing breakaway leagues with them too!"

but, why? The races have to invite them (short of disciplinary action), what do these meetings actually achieve?
"dialogue, discussions and more. Prudhomme meets managers individually but also formally at AIGCP meetings."
"organisers want feedback on the racing, to ensure big names turn up, to talk business and discuss things like this"
"finally it's a small world. Organisers, teams, UCI, TV execs: ASO needs to know what these people are thinking & planning."

 

[thehog]

Hinault and Lemond were beasts from a young age. Along with Fignon, the standout stage racers of their era, on one team. It's like sticking Contador and Brother Andy on one team - obviously they're going to do quite well. That was a clear example of just buying up the top talent. Sky have done that, to an extent, but then they have guys performing far above and beyond their historical performances, like Rogers. Added to this, it's often in the exact same manner as what we now know to be a rotten team doping program.

(for all you Clinic haterz still for some reason reading this forum, I use 'know' to mean 'think beyond reasonable doubt'; after all if we are to use 'know' in a sense of a 100% certainty, then we 'know' nothing)

Contador's 2010 Astana with the threat of a fully charged RadioShack never did the damage of Sky. In fact an 09 Astana bar solo Contador didn't do that type of carnage.

If Wiggins catches Evans tomorrow not sure whether I'll laugh or cry.... probably both. Froome will probably catch Evans!

 

[mastersracer]

Hinault and Lemond were beasts from a young age. Along with Fignon, the standout stage racers of their era, on one team. It's like sticking Contador and Brother Andy on one team - obviously they're going to do quite well. That was a clear example of just buying up the top talent. Sky have done that, to an extent, but then they have guys performing far above and beyond their historical performances, like Rogers. Added to this, it's often in the exact same manner as what we now know to be a rotten team doping program.

(for all you Clinic haterz still for some reason reading this forum, I use 'know' to mean 'think beyond reasonable doubt'; after all if we are to use 'know' in a sense of a 100% certainty, then we 'know' nothing)

Rogers isn't exactly a rider suddenly performing beyond his palmares - a number of U-19/23 world podiums/championships, 3 time world champion in the ITT, top ten at the Tour and Giro, and a number of major victories going back to 2003. He put in a huge pull on stage 7 then lost over a minute in the last few kms. He lost over 4 minutes today, so it looks like he paid for that effort.