Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Franklin]

I think the cooling down process of riding your bike is primarily used to help clear lactic acid from the muscles.

Something that is effectively done with massage - which we know the Tour riders receive after every stage.

Removal of lactic acid is a bad idea... Read the link I posted.

 

[andy1234]

Then what exactly are you claiming?

Keep up indeed.

What am I, your secretary?
Read the thread.

 

[Franklin]

What am I, your secretary?
Read the thread.

Temper temper

A bit miffled that I show that the cooldown procedure for Sky is called snake oil by scientists and that it certainly isn't a new thing?

Sorry, I'm a sucker for facts over blind belief.

 

[Caruut]

Absolutely false Caruut, don't fall for the semantic traps. These things are most definitely facts. What they are not is solid evidence.

Ahaha, good point.

 

[blackcat]

That's the most sense I've heard re this Tour since it began. Especially point 3 - BMC have been all over the place. Sky must be laughing themselves to sleep every night at how poor their competition is.

BMC had a very competent (that word is an absolute no amplifier necessary) first 10 days

 

[Caruut]

BMC had a very competent (that word is an absolute no amplifier necessary) first 10 days

BMC as a team haven't been that bad. TJVG has been a better mountain dom than most expected. Cummings was up to Evans quite quickly after tack-gate; if he hadn't punctured too, Evans would have been off quite quickly.

 

[Franklin]

BMC had a very competent (that word is an absolute no amplifier necessary) first 10 days

4 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team
7 Tejay Van Garderen (USA) BMC Racing Team

Poor indeed

 

[andy1234]

He's right...you're wrong....I've seen it myself...Lance and Radioshack and Garmin etc were doing it three years ago.
Next...
On top of that riders have been riding down off mountains for decades to save time in order to get to hotels. But that isn't a turbo trainer so it doesn't count!!

Lim was doing it with Garmin in 2009 and with Radioshack. But of course when Sky do it in 2012 they are the first and is the reason for they super human performance. Don't waste my time with such dribble.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/theleadingedge/2009/06/26/race-results-it’s-not-just-about-the-bike/

Pre-race, the team uses ice vests for cooling while riders spin on the trainers. And in-race, the riders went off in TTs with icepacks under their skinsuits – a strategy that Lim says other teams liberally borrowed last August at the US Pro championships.

June 26th, 2009

Wow, some of those guys at Garmin must not have got the memo about warming down after road stages, all those years ago, when they invented it.

Popovych must also have forgotten his Radioshack road stage warm downs, when he was laughing at the Sky team earlier in the season for doing just that.

http://www.steephill.tv/players/720...board=tour-de-france&id=1722498078001&yr=2012

 

[Franklin]

Wow, some of those guys at Garmin must not have got the memo about warming down after road stages, all those years ago, when they invented it.

You hate reading my link, don't you? The snake oil bit is a bit tough to respond to I assume

 

[andy1234]

You hate reading my link, don't you? The snake oil bit is a bit tough to respond to I assume

I don't guve a f*ck whether it works or not.
Simply that it wasn't common practice to warm down after a road stage, before sky started doing it.

Personally I would rather put my feet up and start eating.....

 

[Digger]

Wow, some of those guys at Garmin must not have got the memo about warming down after road stages, all those years ago, when they invented it.

Popovych must also have forgotten his Radioshack road stage warm downs, when he was laughing at the Sky team earlier in the season for doing just that.

http://www.steephill.tv/players/720...board=tour-de-france&id=1722498078001&yr=2012

My god you actually believe this is part of the difference...I thought the lance fans were brainless.

 

[Digger]

Where has all this "Wiggins adores Lance" bs come from? I can't remember anything which shows this.
Not to mention the fact that it's very difficult to "slander" lance because he seem to have a habit of going after people legally etc.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9295

That enough?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

You hate reading my link, don't you? The snake oil bit is a bit tough to respond to I assume

I have no opinion either way on whether it is beneficial but just because some scientists think one thing that does not mean they are right. Otherwise explain why some scientists think global warming is real while others do not?

 

[mastersracer]

4 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team
7 Tejay Van Garderen (USA) BMC Racing Team

Poor indeed

Stage 7, the first real GC stage:

Evans: "We could have taken a more aggressive role in the race, but when you see [Wiggins] has three guys with him and I've got one or I'm isolated already, what can you do?"

TJVG 46th on stage.

 

[Franklin]

I don't guve a f*ck whether it works or not.
Simply that it wasn't common practice to warm down after a road stage, before sky started doing it.

So let me get this straight:

- There are several people pointing out cyclists did cooling down before Sky. A quick google gives heaps of hits including Carmichael and Livingston.

Somehow this is irrelevant.

- I even point out that it's rather debated if it does anything at all.

Yet this is trotted out as one of those marginal gains things.

And all of this really put a burr under your skin. Why? is it because one of the marginal gains is now established as hardly innovation and not really a clear gain?

 

[andy1234]

My god you actually believe this is part of the difference...I thought the lance fans were brainless.

Who cares, but apparently the teams think it makes a difference.

Are you going to tell Garmin that they have been doing this for years? Because they dont seem to remember.

 

[Franklin]

Stage 7, the first real GC stage:

Evans: "We could have taken a more aggressive role in the race, but when you see [Wiggins] has three guys with him and I've got one or I'm isolated already, what can you do?"

TJVG 46th on stage.

Yes, the stage which let all the alarm bells go off

Lets look at this one, just for laughs and giggles.

Sky demolish BMC which is obviously so off pace that Sky is laughing all the way to the bus. Yet this BMC manages to have two rather secure top ten spots one of them a rider who won the TdF.

I'm a bit confused.... everyone seems to be out of form except Sky. Even the horrible BMC and Radioshack do actually pretty good if we disregard Sky.

 

[AcademyCC]

4 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team
7 Tejay Van Garderen (USA) BMC Racing Team

Poor indeed

I agree with you on the lactic acid. The body loves lactate.

However on the above - if you had said to BMC at the start of the tour that after stage 15 Cadel will be 3'19 down they would consider that very poor indeed.

 

[Franklin]

Who cares, but apparently the teams think it makes a difference.

Are you going to tell Garmin that they have been doing this for years? Because they dont seem to remember.

So if scientists say it doesn't matter, which of the marginal gains does make the difference?

Believers obviously don't like facts and stuff, but inquiring minds would like to know.

 

[the big ring]

Removal of lactic acid is a bad idea... Read the link I posted.

My bad - when I write / think "lactic acid" - I am considering the waste products beyond just lactic acid. Our bodies are not perfect machines and after riding for 5 hours you are going to produce some pretty unnatural levels of internal waste.

I have a pretty good grasp of the ADP - ATP process and lactic acid's role in that. The article linked is correct in saying lactic acid is not the "enemy" but there are other things going on that a warm down routine helps with.

One issue I have with the article (and it's not a study) is the comment that lactic acid should be left there for energy production. The cyclists in the TdF won't be calling on their legs to do productive work for over 12 hours, and walking to the bus / up to the hotel room / down to breakfast the next day is going to clear that lactic acid long before they climb back on the bike for the next stage.

There is definitely room for a psychological "warm down" - doing something as mindless as sitting on a trainer or even rolling down off a mountain to the hotel would be of benefit in something as stressful as the TdF. (See here: http://www.ausport.gov.au/sportscoa...cal_and_psychological_strategies_for_recovery)

From my own personal experience, training rides are far easier on me when I do a warm down, races even more so. It's not only about lactic acid.

 

[Franklin]

There is definitely room for a psychological "warm down" - doing something as mindless as sitting on a trainer or even rolling down off a mountain to the hotel would be of benefit in something as stressful as the TdF. (See here: http://www.ausport.gov.au/sportscoa...cal_and_psychological_strategies_for_recovery)
.

Now you go to the Haptonomic explanation, I'll give you a scientific link which debunks at least part of the claim in your article.

Law RYW and Herbert RD(2007) Warm-up reduces delayed-onset muscle soreness but cool-down does not: a randomised controlled trial. The Australian Journal of Physiotherapy 53: 91–95 (http://www.mendeley.com/research/wa...ldown-does-not-a-randomised-controlled-trial/)

Now we can go back and forth, but this marginal gain seems to be rather marginal wouldn't you agree?

 

[the big ring]

Now you go to the Haptonomic explanation, I'll give you a scientific link which debunks at least part of the claim in your article.

Law RYW and Herbert RD(2007) Warm-up reduces delayed-onset muscle soreness but cool-down does not: a randomised controlled trial. The Australian Journal of Physiotherapy 53: 91–95

Now we can go back and forth, but this marginal gain seems to be rather marginal wouldn't you agree?

Both the physical warm down and the psychological warm down can be effected by a good masseur - where good does not just include someone who knows the insertions and your niggly bits, but also how to talk to you and talk you down from a tough day in the office.

It's my belief that both physical and psychological post-stage cool downs are required for peak performance, and that the massage fulfills that role as equally well as sitting on a trainer.

IMO (entirely non-scientific and decidedly amateur opinion) the trainer cool down offers no advantage whatsoever (over the traditional post-stage massage).

It's definitely more visible, however, and if anything, with all those people staring at you and waving syringes at you, it could potentially be more stressful.

eg: I personally think Popovich is weak, but even having someone for whom I have no respect laughing at me, would have some form of negative influence on the riders / team (imo).

 

[andy1234]

So if scientists say it doesn't matter, which of the marginal gains does make the difference?

Believers obviously don't like facts and stuff, but inquiring minds would like to know.

Seems to have got the other teams following,which seems like a good psychological place to start.

 

[Digger]

Who cares, but apparently the teams think it makes a difference.

Are you going to tell Garmin that they have been doing this for years? Because they dont seem to remember.

Listen it's all PR spin...just like it was for USP...It's just a shame the fans are gullible enough to swallow it and that no journos are out there saying look this is clearly bulls***, just like Allen Lim with his Beet juice last year, where two over 35 year olds decimated the TOC.

 

[Digger]

Maybe it's just a big mind f*ck to the other teams?

Seems to have got the other teams following,which seems like a good psychological place to start.

Ok now i know you're trolling.