Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dr. Maserati]

is exactly what it is...completely.

I am not accusing you of being skeptical, you said that. I merely said if you are going to accuse, come up with some proof, not hearsay.

Mas...you're right 2008 kimmage was with Garmin. Well done. So do you think Wiggins is doping then? Or that there is a team wide programme at Sky?

Simple answer is I don't know - that is why I ask questions.
Hopefully Sky will have better and more believable answers than you.

 

[Benotti69]

So not only was Straydog being patronising, he also either didn't know his stuff or deliberately misrepresented the situation. Interesting.

Yeah this is pretty much his modus operandi on here.

His hating on Kimmage is his biggest topic and his defence of Armstrong till it all got undeniable that Armstrong is what we all know.

I guess he is part of the McQuack Mafia.

 

[straydog]

Simple answer is I don't know - that is why I ask questions.
Hopefully Sky will have better and more believable answers than you.

Mas seeing as you want to become personal. I honestly believe you are a liar. I don't believe you are in the slightest bit interested in truth, or questioning and certainly not fairness, when it comes to the questions you want to ask accused riders. You wan't a fight. If you wanted Sky's answers you'd ask them. Not me. And not here. For tonight, I am sorry I can no longer indulge your slightly sinister habit of following me on every thread I post in. Much more interesting things to do at home. So Good night. Hope you find someone else to indulge you.


I somehow suspect away from the safety and anonymity of your keyboard you are a very different person, and if that doesn't bother you, then good for you.

Peace

 

[Darryl Webster]

Yeah this is pretty much his modus operandi on here.

His hating on Kimmage is his biggest topic and his defence of Armstrong till it all got undeniable that Armstrong is what we all know.

Ta for that bit of info Benotti..if he,s such an idiot he defended Pharmstrong then I know full well there's no debate to be had.
He can go no1 on my ignore list. The very first..Champion.

 

[straydog]

Ta for that bit of info Benotti..if he,s such an idiot he defended Pharmstrong then I know full well there's no debate to be had.
He can go no1 on my ignore list. The very first..Champion.

I am honoured. Pity Darryl...I did write something personal to start with then thought better.


Didn't realise you were so bitter. Sorry. Genuinely.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

....

Am, you asked ME a question - so you made it personal.

Obviously you don't like the answer. I am sorry that you feel I follow you in every thread you post in - but as you only post about lance and Sky I guess we were destined to meet. We would have met more if you had joined discussions on other riders like Contador, Valverde, Riis, Ulrich etc

 

[Caruut]

I am honoured. Pity Darryl...I did write something personal to start with then thought better.


Didn't realise you were so bitter. Sorry. Genuinely.

Yes, you were really quite rude (I caught the first post). That coming after you said Mas claiming you weren't believable was "getting personal". I have no problems being anonymous, and don't see how it makes someone's point less valid. If Bradley wants to come see me I'll happily tell him all this to his face, so let him know, okay?

 

[Benotti69]

Ta for that bit of info Benotti..if he,s such an idiot he defended Pharmstrong then I know full well there's no debate to be had.
He can go no1 on my ignore list. The very first..Champion.

Your welcome Darryl. Glad to see you back posting

 

[straydog]

Yes, you were really quite rude (I caught the first post). That coming after you said Mas claiming you weren't believable was "getting personal". I have no problems being anonymous, and don't see how it makes someone's point less valid. If Bradley wants to come see me I'll happily tell him all this to his face, so let him know, okay?

I certainly was, and it was unnecessary which is why I edited it.


Of course you have no problems being anonymous...cos you are. So I'll tell you what, when his profile is published and DB organises the seminar in Manchester I'll send you the details and you can come along. Deal? You can't wear a mask though.

And you can ask the questions to his face. Directly. I somehow suspect you will be busy, but just in case, please do contact me if you are interested.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Anyone who watches Wiggo's gut reaction to his team being thrown off the 2007 tour for doping, and thinks he would dope, is a poor reader of character. None of the numbers from this year's tour backs it up anyway, and there is a desperate attempt to cling to assumption and hearsay to back up any accusations. But yet this thread rumbles on and on.

I know the history of the sport, I know why these assumptions are easy to make, I can see why parallels are easy to draw with dopers that have gone before. But utter conviction of guilt on that basis is a bridge too far in my opinion. He has pedigree, he has heart and honesty and is a solid character who wants to make a mark on cycling history, Cynicism is understandable, blind assumption of guilt because of performance isn't.

 

[Poursuivant]

Anyone who watches Wiggo's gut reaction to his team being thrown off the 2007 tour for doping, and thinks he would dope, is a poor reader of character. None of the numbers from this year's tour backs it up anyway, and there is a desperate attempt to cling to assumption and hearsay to back up any accusations. But yet this thread rumbles on and on.

I know the history of the sport, I know why these assumptions are easy to make, I can see why parallels are easy to draw with dopers that have gone before. But utter conviction of guilt on that basis is a bridge too far in my opinion. He has pedigree, he has heart and honesty and is a solid character who wants to make a mark on cycling history, Cynicism is understandable, blind assumption of guilt because of performance isn't.

Good post.

 

[straydog]

Your welcome Darryl. Glad to see you back posting

Benotti I had actually given Darryl more credit than being in any way associated with you, but now that I see he is, I fear his experiences have left him more deluded than I could have imagined, in which case I wear his ignore with pride. If only you could offer me the same.

And I am one of the Mcquack mafia? I thought you said I was actually one of them? What's up? Your "sources" letting you down?

Listen it honestly makes me smile that you think kimmage is my bug bear. He is a tedious little semi literate oaf, but ultimately he is harmless and irrelevant. The fact that I don't want to see Armstrong crucified makes you hate me. Cool. Good for you. The fact that I don't think Brad Wiggins is doping or that anything in his performances suggests he is, also it appears, makes you angry. I get it. Really that's cool. It says a lot more about you than it does me.

 

[straydog]

Anyone who watches Wiggo's gut reaction to his team being thrown off the 2007 tour for doping, and thinks he would dope, is a poor reader of character. None of the numbers from this year's tour backs it up anyway, and there is a desperate attempt to cling to assumption and hearsay to back up any accusations. But yet this thread rumbles on and on.

I know the history of the sport, I know why these assumptions are easy to make, I can see why parallels are easy to draw with dopers that have gone before. But utter conviction of guilt on that basis is a bridge too far in my opinion. He has pedigree, he has heart and honesty and is a solid character who wants to make a mark on cycling history, Cynicism is understandable, blind assumption of guilt because of performance isn't.

+1 Well said. Seriously. Though this will fall on deaf ears I fear. There are some who just want a doping story no matter what.

 

[Hugh Januss]

see no doping.........

Benotti I had actually given Darryl more credit than being in any way associated with you, but now that I see he is, I fear his experiences have left him more deluded than I could have imagined, in which case I wear his ignore with pride. If only you could offer me the same.

And I am one of the Mcquack mafia? I thought you said I was actually one of them? What's up? Your "sources" letting you down?

Listen it honestly makes me smile that you think kimmage is my bug bear. He is a tedious little semi literate oaf, but ultimately he is harmless and irrelevant. The fact that I don't want to see Armstrong crucified makes you hate me. Cool. Good for you. The fact that I don't think Brad Wiggins is doping or that anything in his performances suggests he is, also it appears, makes you angry. I get it. Really that's cool. It says a lot more about you than it does me.

 

[straydog]

Ah Hugh....Mas, Benotti and now you...a full house of my stalkers. Congrats on being so predictable.

 

[BYOP88]

How was the ride? It's annoying when you're out on your bike but have to keep replying on a forum to people who know jack about cycling and the inner workings of a pro team. Maybe next time don't take the phone with you.

Regarding the weight loss thing, dude that's so like 1999 and we know what happened there.

 

[taiwan]

Ah Hugh....Mas, Benotti and now you...a full house of my stalkers. Congrats on being so predictable.

Dude how many posts do you have in this thread alone? If you don't like the attention you could STFU?

I'm not saying you should stop posting, I'm saying clearly you're not shy.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

is exactly what it is...completely.

I am not accusing you of being skeptical, you said that. I merely said if you are going to accuse, come up with some proof, not hearsay.

Mas...you're right 2008 kimmage was with Garmin. Well done. So do you think Wiggins is doping then? Or that there is a team wide programme at Sky?

Wiggins was with Columbia in '08 and didn't ride the Tour, so its relevance to Kimmage being with Garmin is beyond irrelevant.

Anyone who watches Wiggo's gut reaction to his team being thrown off the 2007 tour for doping, and thinks he would dope, is a poor reader of character.

Again though, it's about the totality rather than any of the individual pieces, which all seem to be plausible. Each individual tree seems to have plausible explanations that assuage doubts... but the whole forest is difficult to explain away.

Besides, the whole "Wiggins' gut reaction in 2007 is enough to say he wouldn't dope" is kind of hinged entirely on the belief that Wiggins hasn't changed attitudes in that 5 year period. He could change as a person just as fundamentally as he's changed as a cyclist in that time. It's like the "Armstrong would never dope, anybody who had had cancer wouldn't take that risk" *Niklas Axelsson tests positive for EPO* "Who's Niklas Axelsson? Armstrong would never dope, anybody who had had cancer wouldn't take that risk"

 

[JimmyFingers]

Besides, the whole "Wiggins' gut reaction in 2007 is enough to say he wouldn't dope" is kind of hinged entirely on the belief that Wiggins hasn't changed attitudes in that 5 year period. He could change as a person just as fundamentally as he's changed as a cyclist in that time. It's like the "Armstrong would never dope, anybody who had had cancer wouldn't take that risk" *Niklas Axelsson tests positive for EPO* "Who's Niklas Axelsson? Armstrong would never dope, anybody who had had cancer wouldn't take that risk"

But you are tarring Wiggins with the same brush: exactly the sort of assumption I am criticising. It becomes a self-perpetuating delusion, you merely re-inforce your prejudice at every turn by the acts of others. Bradley Wiggins ISN'T Lance Armstrong. He career follows an entirely different trajectory and he has an entirely different cultural background. They are distinct people, separated not only nationality but by generation. To condemn Bradley for lance's actions is a crime in itself. 3 times gold medal winner, 7 times world Champion on the track. He came to the road late but applied that clear natural talent in the same way and has proved himself. Tearing that down through doping-by-assumption smacks of prejudice and an agenda based on motives I can guess at but won't voice.

REPEAT: Wiggins isn't Lance Armstrong. Sky aren't US Postal. The latter can **** off, I loathe them for what they have done to this sport. Don't continue that damage by attempting to destroy everything that comes after them.

If you do what hope is there for cycling.

 

[Telmisartan new]

As I said ask DB, Sutton, Fran Millar, Dave Millar, Brad, G.....heck maybe contact him yourself. You'll be wildly entertained by his response I am sure. He is the life and soul and not at all tedious.

Hi there Straydog. May i ask if you work in a official capacity for BC/Sky?

This is a genuine question and not sarcasm.

Who is G? Is it short for Geert?

If you have mentioned the answers to these questions before,then forgive me.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Geraint Thomas

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Throughout TdF history it seems to be the rule rather than he exception that someone dominates.

Sure. But prior to the EPO era, that person was never someone who started out their career by being in the grupetto for years. After EPO it has often been.

the fact that someone is a lot better than the rest is not proof of doping.

No argument there. But who it is who is a "lot better" and what their prior record is, is certainly something to take into account.

Amongst the 3000+ post I have found only two arguments that in my opinion carry weight. The hiring of a very dodgy doctor, Froome's and Wiggin's poor and good but not great pedigree palmares.

Wiggins does not have a "good but not great" pedigree by the standards of pre-EPO Tour winners. If anything he has a worse one than Froome. Froome after all, made his leap out of anonymity aged 27. Wiggins first featured anywhere near the sharp end at 29. Then he did not a lot else until he was 31.

I'm not saying that either are dopers. But given the history of the sport and in particular its history of older riders who suddenly contest races they were nowhere in as young men, well you'd have to be very naive not to be at the very least a little wary.

 

[TubularBills]

Anyone who watches Wiggo's gut reaction to his team being thrown off the 2007 tour for doping, and thinks he would dope, is a poor reader of character. None of the numbers from this year's tour backs it up anyway, and there is a desperate attempt to cling to assumption and hearsay to back up any accusations. But yet this thread rumbles on and on.

I know the history of the sport, I know why these assumptions are easy to make, I can see why parallels are easy to draw with dopers that have gone before. But utter conviction of guilt on that basis is a bridge too far in my opinion. He has pedigree, he has heart and honesty and is a solid character who wants to make a mark on cycling history, Cynicism is understandable, blind assumption of guilt because of performance isn't.

After Stage 17...

2012

1 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling 78:28:02
2 Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:02:05
3 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:02:41
4 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Lotto Belisol Team 0:05:53
5 Tejay Van Garderen (USA) BMC Racing Team 0:08:30
6 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:09:57
7 Haimar Zubeldia Agirre (Spa) RadioShack-Nissan 0:10:11
8 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Team Europcar 0:10:17
9 Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Astana Pro Team 0:11:00
10 Thibaut Pinot (Fra) FDJ-Big Mat

2011

1 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Team Europcar 73:23:49
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:01:18
3 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek 0:01:22
4 Andy Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek 0:02:36
5 Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:02:59
6 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Saxo Bank Sungard 0:03:15
7 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre - ISD 0:03:34
8 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:03:49
9 Thomas Danielson (USA) Team Garmin-Cervelo 0:06:04
10 Rigoberto Uran Uran (Col) Sky Procycling

Wiggins through Stage 6*:

6 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:00:10
7 Geraint Thomas (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:00:12

2010

1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 83:32:39
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:08
3 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:32
4 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0:03:53
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:05:27
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:06:41
7 Joaquin Rodriguez (Spa) Team Katusha 0:07:03
8 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Transitions 0:09:18
9 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas-Doimo 0:10:12
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Team Radioshack 0:10:37

2009

1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 72:27:09
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:02:26
3 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:03:25
4 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:03:55
5 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:04:44
6 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:04:53
7 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0:05:09
8 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Garmin - Slipstream 0:08:08
9 Christophe Le Mevel (Fra) Française des Jeux 0:09:19
10 Mikel Astarloza Chaurreau (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:10:50

2008

1 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) CSC - Tiscali 74:39:03
2 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank +0:01:24
3 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) ELK Haus Radteam +0:01:33
4 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon - Lotto +0:01:34
5 Denis Menchov (Rus) iBanesto.com +0:02:39
6 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Garmin - Slipstream +0:04:41
7 Alejandro Valverde Belmonte (Spa) Illes Balears - Caisse d'Epargne +0:05:35
8 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi +0:05:52
9 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale +0:08:10
10 Vladimir Efimkin (Rus) AG2R La Mondiale +0:08:24

2007 Cofidis - Thrown out of Tour for Doping
2008 Team High Road
2009 Garmin-Slipstream
2010 Team Sky - Wiggins promises transparency
2011 Team Sky - Wiggins crashes out
2012 Team Sky - Revolutionizes the bleeding edge of training and performance methodologies & puts two riders on the podium.

I guess it's possible that it is the cleanest tour ever... or...

http://thewheelsucker.com/tag/geert-leinders/

"Sky’s team doctor, Geert Leinders was previously employed by Rabobank when Michael Rasmussen was sacked by them during the 2007 Tour, and when Thomas Dekker failed a drugs test for EPO. When Sky was established it was made very clear that they would have no one involved in their set up who had a history of doping, but even by the end of their first year of racing Dave Brailsford admitted that had begun to change."

*(2011 8 July, Wiggins crashed out of the 2011 Tour de France on stage 7 with a broken collarbone.)

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/wiggins-hits-out-at-negative-tour-vibe-20120720-22dpk.html

I guess it's possible that this may be the cleanest tour ever... just unlikely.

 

[JimmyFingers]

But given the history of the sport and in particular its history of older riders who suddenly contest races they were nowhere in as young men, well you'd have to be very naive not to be at the very least a little wary.

Wiggins is a track rider that eventually turned his focus to the road. His career follows a very different trajectory to traditional continental road racers, British riders have generally cut their teeth on the track then moved to the road, down to the way the sport is set up in this country. Yours is a moot point.

 

[Square-pedaller]

Question for Straydog/Jimmy Fingers (or anybody else who wants to comment):

Did you think/know that Millar was doping before he got busted? If so, had you always known or was it something that you gradually/suddenly found/worked out?