Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Hugh Januss]

Ah, I see - just another juvenile BW = LA post.

1+1 is not juvenile it is simple.

 

[hrotha]

It's really quite simple: if you can't climb AT ALL until you're 29, you're probably not that much of a natural talent for the GTs. Ultimately it's not about Wigans being a pursuit specialist, it's about him not outclimbing the autobus for most of his career on the road.

 

[the big ring]

On the track:

sprinters (and keirin / kilo riders) require type IIs.

Everyone else is called an "enduro" - scratch race, 4km IP, teams pursuit, points race, etc, and require type I muscle fibres.

 

[the big ring]

About the only thing I can think that IP training focus for so many years handicaps you with is the fact that it is a high kinetic energy movement. And climbing is low kinetic energy. It explains to some extent his showing in the first TT of this tour, given it was a tailwind. (And the EBH leadout earlier in the week).

If there's a headwind tomorrow I'm guessing Bradley won't be as awesome, but it's a wild guess

I'd also hazard a guess that the heat would have a significant impact on FTP for the sustained climbs. Given most VO2 / FTP tests occur in a lab at around STP, I'm guessing the +9C temp difference has a not insignificant impact, although my search of studies turned up very little by way of measurement. And Brad looks like a 'ranga - we don't handle the heat as well as those tanned individuals (Porte).

Living and training in a cold climate (UK) or training and racing indoors (IP) for most of your developmental stage would need some serious adaptation to handle the heat in France in July.

 

[andy1234]

"Do many of the posters here have so little knowledge of physiology in general, and cycling in particular, that they think the attributes required to be a world class pursuiter are so different than the attributes required to be a GT rider."

Obviously you do not, with your single dimensional focus on VO2 max.

While a high VO2 max is necessary for elite cycling performance, among elite cyclists, VO2 max alone does not correlate to well to success. If such were the case, races would not be necessary -- just do a VO2 max test instead.

Of all cycling disciplines, yes pursuit cyclists need not only a very high VO2 max, but a high percentage of Type II muscle fiber, since endurance is not required. Those lacking a high percentage of Type II muscle fiber simply will not be able to generate enough power to be successful.

Conversely, endurance events like Stage Racing (or marathon running for that matter) requires a relatively high VO2 max but more important, a high percentage of Type I muscle fiber -- efficient and fatigue resistant.

Horowitz JF, Sidossis LS, Coyle EF: "High efficiency of type I muscle fibers improves performance." International Journal of Sports Medicine 15(3):152-157, 1994, clearly demonstrates the importance of a high percentage of Type I muscle fiber to cycling endurance performance. When cyclists are matched for V0\O2 max, those with the higher percentage of Type I muscle fibers showed 10% better 1 hour performance:

73+/-3 % Type I, 48+/-2 % Type I, 4.48+/-0.13 l/min, 4.46+/-0.13 l/min, 342+/-9 watts, 315+/-11 watts

Such an advantage is required both for time-trialing and climbing, as climbing is essentially an up-hill time trial. Interestingly, for a variety of reasons outside the scope of this discussion, among endurance athletes, the various genetic factors contributing to a high VO2 max are mostly contrary to those contributing to a high percentage of Type I muscle fiber, although this is not true in the general population.

For these reasons, elite cyclists generally fall into one of the following catagories: Track and Sprinter, Classics, Grand Tour contender, based upon combinations of VO2 max and Type I muscle fiber, amongst other factors, such as BMI.

Thus, at one extreme, the track cyclist: very high VO2 max, high percentage Type II muscle fiber, high BMI.

At the other extreme, Grand Tour contender: relatively high VO2 max, high percentage Type I muscle fiber, low BMI.

In essence, Bradley Wiggins would have needed to change 2 of 3 major physiological traits in order to be a Grand Tour contender. While obviously possible for BMI, significant muscle fiber plasticity is still debated.

That being a Grand Tour Champion represents the sport's pinnacle, and that now other track cyclist has made the transition to Grand Tour Champion, or even serious contender, one can easily see why so many suspect Wiggins' transformation.

I found it difficult to continue reading after you claimed that pursuiters do not require endurance. The statement renders most of your points irrelevant.

Put simply, performance at a world class level in pursuiting requires a leaning towards type 1 muscle composition.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You don't like to jump to doping conclusions?

Then don't jump to assume anyone is clean would be a start.

This is pro cycling after all.

It gets worse in here now with the sky fans assuming that the clinic is for so called cycling haters. Armstrongs were bad enough, but Wiggins are taking it to another level

The people in the clinic who call it as they see it watches the sport 365 days a year, not just July!

You are a massive tool: think you are the only ones that follow the sport throughout the season

Worst thing about this disgusting corner of the web: you want Sky to be doping, you want cycling to be dirty. You wallow in the appallingly negativity of the place, waiting every day for new victims and defend it all with a sort of world-weariness. You use it to belittle and dismiss anyone that disagrees: it;s a sad little bullying scenario for a short period you are the big men. Ooh

You think this is only cycling forum in the world? The only reason I bothered posted here was a reaction to the appallingly negativity you lot love to wallow in.

Pro-cycling doesn't belong to you, you are not the arbiters of the sport you play at being. Actually why I am bothering? Bye

 

[Poursuivant]

You are a massive tool: think you are the only ones that follow the sport throughout the season

Worst thing about this disgusting corner of the web: you want Sky to be doping, you want cycling to be dirty. You wallow in the appallingly negativity of the place, waiting every day for new victims and defend it all with a sort of world-weariness. You use it to belittle and dismiss anyone that disagrees: it;s a sad little bullying scenario for a short period you are the big men. Ooh

You think this is only cycling forum in the world? The only reason I bothered posted here was a reaction to the appallingly negativity you lot love to wallow in.

Pro-cycling doesn't belong to you, you are not the arbiters of the sport you play at being. Actually why I am bothering? Bye

Bang, nail on head.

 

[thehog]

About the only thing I can think that IP training focus for so many years handicaps you with is the fact that it is a high kinetic energy movement. And climbing is low kinetic energy. It explains to some extent his showing in the first TT of this tour, given it was a tailwind. (And the EBH leadout earlier in the week).

If there's a headwind tomorrow I'm guessing Bradley won't be as awesome, but it's a wild guess

I'd also hazard a guess that the heat would have a significant impact on FTP for the sustained climbs. Given most VO2 / FTP tests occur in a lab at around STP, I'm guessing the +9C temp difference has a not insignificant impact, although my search of studies turned up very little by way of measurement. And Brad looks like a 'ranga - we don't handle the heat as well as those tanned individuals (Porte).

Living and training in a cold climate (UK) or training and racing indoors (IP) for most of your developmental stage would need some serious adaptation to handle the heat in France in July.

UK is cold? Not really. Just rains a lot. Never gets below zero and rarely snows. France, Italy, Germany etc. much colder and it snows.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You are a massive tool: think you are the only ones that follow the sport throughout the season

Worst thing about this disgusting corner of the web: you want Sky to be doping, you want cycling to be dirty. You wallow in the appallingly negativity of the place, waiting every day for new victims and defend it all with a sort of world-weariness. You use it to belittle and dismiss anyone that disagrees: it;s a sad little bullying scenario for a short period you are the big men. Ooh

You think this is only cycling forum in the world? The only reason I bothered posted here was a reaction to the appallingly negativity you lot love to wallow in.

Pro-cycling doesn't belong to you, you are not the arbiters of the sport you play at being. Actually why I am bothering? Bye

Arbiter, eh....

 

[Hugh Januss]

You are a massive tool: think you are the only ones that follow the sport throughout the season


Pro-cycling doesn't belong to you, you are not the arbiters of the sport you play at being. Actually why I am bothering? Bye

No fortunately for the UCI bigwigs gullible idiots like yourself follow cycling too. So they can get away with continuing to sell their brand of "the new clean cycling" to the ignorant masses and keep the cash cow alive.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Doping cannot help you if you are a sprinter.

Cav is the best sprinter that the sport of cycling has ever seen. Nobody else in the peloton even knows how to pedal their bike, and none of the track guys understand how to shift gears.

Dave.

While I agree wholeheartedly that Cav winning things is in no way whatsoever indicative of doping, your first sentence I cannot agree with. After all, you could be the fastest sprinter in the world, but if you can't make it over a molehill you'll never get to show what you can do. I could readily believe somebody like a Quaranta, Napolitano or Furlan doping so that they could be there to contend the sprints. After all, a fair few sprinters have been involved in doping issues over time - Allan Davis, Alessandro Petacchi, Djamolidine Abdoujaparov for starters. Just this week Rasa Leleivyte, a Lithuanian who was a decent sprinter but was trying to convert herself into more of an all-rounder, tested +ve for EPO.

 

[Nocontest]

Nah, something about Merckx wining all of the Jerseys - Yellow, Polka Dot, and Green - along with the combativity award and combination classification in his very first Tour (1969, at the age of 24). Had their been a white jersey, it would have been his as well.

Of course, he had already won the World's as an amateur before that.

Dave.

I agree with all of that but that does not detract from my comment that his being good on the track did not hamper him as a GT contender or vice versa. Quoting the fact that Wiggo was not a great climber 6-7 years ago is totally irrelevant as there has been a steady progression in his ability to climb over several years. Plus, like I said this tour has been perfect for him; no explosive attacks to worry about. He is riding pretty much like he rode 3 years ago when he came 4th but a bit quicker. The difference is in the lack of quality challengers.

 

[taiwan]

I agree with all of that but that does not detract from my comment that his being good on the track did not hamper him as a GT contender or vice versa. Quoting the fact that Wiggo was not a great climber 6-7 years ago is totally irrelevant as there has been a steady progression in his ability to climb over several years. Plus, like I said this tour has been perfect for him; no explosive attacks to worry about. He is riding pretty much like he rode 3 years ago when he came 4th but a bit quicker. The difference is in the lack of quality challengers.

Nah Krebs cycle says there's no evidence for this because team orders kept him in the autobus for years. He may have been this good since 2005, but he was not allowed to climb faster.

 

[taiwan]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/20/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france?intcmp=239

Bradley Wiggins set for £2m in prize and bonuses if he wins Tour de France

Cycling race's €450,000 first prize could be dwarfed by money from Team Sky contract if Briton is crowned champion

"The growing attraction of the Tour as a spectacle, as well as the success of Wiggins, has encouraged increasing numbers of people to take up cycling, which in turn is making the whole sport far more marketable to sponsors."

Hm.

What does "Hm" mean??

It means ££££££££££££ and it means we have a Sky-friendly Tour in various ways.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Ask Victor Conte if doping helps a sprinter.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Nah Krebs cycle says there's no evidence for this because team orders kept him in the autobus for years. He may have been this good since 2005, but he was not allowed to climb faster.

I never said the above. Either respond to my posts directly or keep me out of your pathetic juvenile troll attempt. But I guess you're too gutless to debate cycling science with me directly because you are yet another one of these "experts from watching the sport for years" who actually doesn't even know the most basic fundamentals of endurance performance physiology.

 

[Fergoose]

*Apologies in advance if this has been posted earlier, I'm not sifting through the last 24hrs of posts here as I doubt there is anything new and informative brought to discussions given Rogers & Porte's relative anonymity in the Pyrenees.*

It was questionable to air Bradley Wiggins: A Very British Champion before the end of the race, but despite the title, it was actually a very good documentary on the guy rather than a pure puff piece. Worth watching for supporters, sceptics and neutrals (non-UK folk may have to use ways of fulling the website into thinking your IP is in the UK).

Points of note from the programme for this thread are suggestions that:

i) Wiggins has been prone to periods of a relative lack of training, particularly in his track days and in 2010 when he first joined Sky. Dips in performance (e.g. 2010) can be explained by bouts of idleness or self-doubt (several UK commentators/experts have now mentioned mental motivational issues with younger Wiggins).
ii) Sky didn’t really know much about road racing or how to prepare Wiggins in 2010 (an example given is that they put him on the 2010 Giro, because he’d done the 2009 Giro and that hadn’t hurt his TdF that year).
iii) Wiggins actually put on some weight for the 2012 season in order to increase his power levels (which makes some sense to me given the TdF layout be relatively flat and ITT friendly).
iv) confirmation that Wiggins was historically very vocal about teams employing sketchy characters in the past.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Good points fergoose but in unfortunately in the clinic, which is an alternative reality, you don't actually have changes in performance due to changes in training.

According to the clinic facial expression detection dope squad (aka the C-Fedds), all pro cyclists train uniformly for their entire careers and all peaks and troughs in performance are due to being on the super doping program or the economy doping program.

 

[Nocontest]

Nah Krebs cycle says there's no evidence for this because team orders kept him in the autobus for years. He may have been this good since 2005, but he was not allowed to climb faster.

Well that could be true, and probably is. When he first came into the road scene he was viewed as a guy for the flatlands and someone who would maybe perform a Jens Voight type of role. Not many trackie's spend a lot of time in the hills, in fact the great female pursuiter, Sarah Ulmer said she actively avoided them for years prior to switching to the road so I would suggest that he had untapped potential back in 2005 and he has progressively worked at his climbing over the years but really focussed on it over the past 3-4 years.

On another note it was great to see him leading out Cav today.

 

[Nocontest]

*Apologies in advance if this has been posted earlier, I'm not sifting through the last 24hrs of posts here as I doubt there is anything new and informative brought to discussions given Rogers & Porte's relative anonymity in the Pyrenees.*

It was questionable to air Bradley Wiggins: A Very British Champion before the end of the race, but despite the title, it was actually a very good documentary on the guy rather than a pure puff piece. Worth watching for supporters, sceptics and neutrals (non-UK folk may have to use ways of fulling the website into thinking your IP is in the UK).

Points of note from the programme for this thread are suggestions that:

i) Wiggins has been prone to periods of a relative lack of training, particularly in his track days and in 2010 when he first joined Sky. Dips in performance (e.g. 2010) can be explained by bouts of idleness or self-doubt (several UK commentators/experts have now mentioned mental motivational issues with younger Wiggins).
ii) Sky didn’t really know much about road racing or how to prepare Wiggins in 2010 (an example given is that they put him on the 2010 Giro, because he’d done the 2009 Giro and that hadn’t hurt his TdF that year).
iii) Wiggins actually put on some weight for the 2012 season in order to increase his power levels (which makes some sense to me given the TdF layout be relatively flat and ITT friendly).
iv) confirmation that Wiggins was historically very vocal about teams employing sketchy characters in the past.

Sorry but this post may have to be bumped as it doesn't fit into the accepted paradigm of the clinic which is based on a more linear rationale...the principle of uniformity.

 

[Telmisartan new]

You are a massive tool: think you are the only ones that follow the sport throughout the season

Worst thing about this disgusting corner of the web: you want Sky to be doping, you want cycling to be dirty. You wallow in the appallingly negativity of the place, waiting every day for new victims and defend it all with a sort of world-weariness. You use it to belittle and dismiss anyone that disagrees: it;s a sad little bullying scenario for a short period you are the big men. Ooh

You think this is only cycling forum in the world? The only reason I bothered posted here was a reaction to the appallingly negativity you lot love to wallow in.

Pro-cycling doesn't belong to you, you are not the arbiters of the sport you play at being. Actually why I am bothering? Bye

Oh Jimmy....you came on here(new poster,like me) last night all guns blazing "i have made my point, this place is ugly i am offski,leave you guys to your never-ending debate" Or words almost identical..i extended an olive branch on the basis that i sensed a reasonable person underneath the bluster......i now come home after a three hour ride up some nasty bergs and your still bickering away. At least stay true to your earlier statements otherwise it nullifies your complete argument.

 

[taiwan]

there has been a steady progression in his ability to climb over several years.

Nah Krebs cycle says there's no evidence for this

Well that could be true, and probably is.

OK.

characters.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Nah Krebs cycle says there's no evidence [that Wiggins improved hill climbing ability] for this because team orders kept him in the autobus for years. He may have been this good since 2005, but he was not allowed to climb faster.

If you want to discuss this issue with me, then reply to my posts directly or at least read what I have written before you go making completely false statements such as the above bit in bold.

You are correct about one thing though, Wiggins could have been better at climbing from 2004-08, IF HE WAS LIGHTER, and IF HE FOCUSED HIS TRAINING on being a road racer and better climber, but he wasn't and he didn't. So why would there be evidence (from GC placing alone) that he was a good climber from 2004-2008? If his focus was not to chase GC placing then why would he even want to climb faster than the autobus? Wasting energy is a really dumb thing to do in GT, or are you going to dispute that too?

However, he did lose weight, change his training, and chase a high GC placing in 2008-09 and so he did gradually improve his climbing ability, which is something I have never disputed. So for starters, you are wrong about what I said, and therefore, you are wrong to assume that nocontest and myself are not in agreement regarding the period 2008-2012.


This is laughable. Can any of you C-Fedds jokers read properly?

 

[taiwan]

If you want to discuss this issue with me, then reply to my posts directly. At least read what I have written before you go making completely false statements such as the above.

You are perfectly correct. Wiggins could have been better at climbing from 2004-08, IF HE WAS LIGHTER, and IF HE FOCUSED HIS TRAINING on being a road racer and better climber, but he wasn't and he didn't. So why would there be evidence (from GC placing alone) that he was a good climber from 2004-2008? If his focus was not to chase GC placing then why would he even want to climb faster than the autobus? Wasting energy is a really dumb thing to do in GT, or are you going to dispute that too?

However, he did lose weight, change his training, and chase a high GC placing in 2008-09 and so he did gradually improve his climbing ability, which is something I have never disputed. So for starters, you are wrong about what I said, and therefore, you are wrong to assume that nocontest and myself are in not in agreement regarding the period 2008-2012.


This is laughable. Can any of you C-Fedds jokers read properly?

Right so the improvement was gradual as in the offseason 2008/9. I thought gradual was meant as in over a long period of time. Sry reading comprehension fail.

 

[biker jk]

Right so the improvement was gradual as in the offseason 2008/9. I thought gradual was meant as in over a long period of time. Sry reading comprehension fail.

Taiwan, I wouldn't bother. Krebs makes it up as he goes along. It's hard to nail a moving target.