Team Sky Suggestions/Improvements

[Libertine Seguros]

Meh. In my opinion (men's) Team HTC-Columbia should be banned from racing, because they haven't brought anything of interest to any race for about two years, all they do is control the break so tightly it can barely escape, then push everybody about to have the best position from which the best sprinter in the race can launch. Then they enter races where every other team is on a level way below them so they can artificially inflate their win-count.

I am free to express that thought. But you are free to think that my statement is unfair and ridiculous (in this instance you'd be right) and to tell me so too, although admittedly maybe I was too confrontational in my reaction above.

 

[Anonymous]

Sunderlands departure helped morale by all accounts. He was absent for this years spring classics and the team went OK..

Who was in the team car urging Flecha on at Omloop, Obi Wan Kenobi?

Theres no way they are better off without someone of the experience of Sunderland. Hes a very experienced DS.

Arguable some of Sky's best rides were in the early spring classics with Scott as DS.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

HTC-Columbia, of course, being one of biggest supporters of women's cycling. You just like disliking people and you're trying to find any feeble reason to do so.

You're right, of course, and have picked up on one of my own hypocrisies (of which there are many); I castigate Sky for not having a women's team, but then take a team who do have a women's team and attack them based on my distaste for the men's team.

But I don't like to dislike people. I just have no self-control about expressing my dislike for those people I dislike. And some of the things I dislike in cycling are big corporate monolith teams, teams that focus everything around sprints, stages in which the sprint is inevitable and the break isn't allowed to go far enough for you to think they have a chance, and Mark Cavendish quotes. Hence when you get combinations of the above, I rant and rant and can't stop myself.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The lost the Pink Jersey because of a crash. Same as Evans did the next day.

In stages they had 1 win, 2 seconds, 2 fourths, 2 fifths. They were top ten in just over half the stages. And Cioni came 17th (not great but quite good for him). Wiggins was in the top ten on GC until stage 15 (Zoncolan).

A lot of teams did worse.

People are not saying they have done badly this year but I think they could do much better than they have. Their are a lot of positives but if Wiggo steps up to the plate or another rider becomes a strong leader for stage races who can get results then they will become one of the best teams in the world.

 

[SpartacusRox]

For Sky, you could read Rabo

Again, for Sky read Rabo.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, they need a genuine GT leader, or another one, if you so prefer.
Plus, they need much better mountain domestiques, if they continue to go down the GT line.

They have a very decent sprint train, but lack the final man in the line.
Not that there are many going spare.
Greipel could have been a great investment, but I assume they can't see past that other Columbia guy.

Nothing wrong with Hendo as a sprinter. he is as fast as anyone on his day.

 

[SpartacusRox]

Meh. In my opinion (men's) Team HTC-Columbia should be banned from racing, because they haven't brought anything of interest to any race for about two years, all they do is control the break so tightly it can barely escape, then push everybody about to have the best position from which the best sprinter in the race can launch. Then they enter races where every other team is on a level way below them so they can artificially inflate their win-count.

I am free to express that thought. But you are free to think that my statement is unfair and ridiculous (in this instance you'd be right) and to tell me so too, although admittedly maybe I was too confrontational in my reaction above.

I guess some people will always dislike winners...go go the underdog!
Tall poppy syndrome is rampant.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

'Objectively lesser cyclists' doesn't mean the racing is less exciting, and your condescending pat-on-the-head about multi-tasking and test scores doesn't make you sound any less sexist.

Apologies, I keep forgetting that measurable objective reality is sexist.

I'll do 100 lines.

"Must remember some people can't tell the difference between equality and identity"

 

[bobbins]

Who was in the team car urging Flecha on at Omloop, Obi Wan Kenobi?

Theres no way they are better off without someone of the experience of Sunderland. Hes a very experienced DS.

Arguable some of Sky's best rides were in the early spring classics with Scott as DS.

Why did they sack him then?

If you weren't one of his mates he treated the riders like ****.

 

[adamski101]

Why did they sack him then?

If you weren't one of his mates he treated the riders like ****.

Sunderland wasn't sacked. He quit of his own accord in order to spend time with his family and help care for his son who is sick.

 

[adamski101]

going back to the original subject of the thread, I think for a first season Sky have done well. To date 18 wins, which puts them behind only HTC, Liquigas, Saxo Bank &Garmin in terms of wins for Pro-Tour teams so far this year.

I think there have also been a number of encouraging performers. Downing has been outstanding, Thomas has shown that he has a good future, especially in the classics, Henderson has been consistent and Possoni has progressed well throughout the year. On the flipside there are a number of huge disappointments; Gerrans hasn't delivered, Pauwels has been way of the pace and the likes of Calzati & Portal have been non existent.

I think moving forward they need to determine what direction they want to take as a Team. Do they continue to concentrate on Grand Tour GC's? If so then they must learn from this years mistakes and not put all their eggs in one basket and focus purely on Wiggins. Another GC contender would be a good useful accquistion. However if they maintian that Wiggins can challenge in the Tour then they need to accquire some better calibre guys for the mountains. Lofkvist is a good solid rider who will pretty much guarantee you a top 20 in GC but he does not have pure climbing ability that you need at GT level. It was interesting to see them linked with Uran, although he is unlikely to join.

Or do they decide to follow the HTC model and go for maximum exposure for their sponsors and win as many races as possible. If so then the obvious would be to offer Cav a large chunk of money at end of his contract next year and get him on board. Which I can see happening, from reading between th lines of Cav's recent comments.

But all in all for a first season I think they have done ok but there is still massive room for improvement. It will be interesting to see how guys like kennaugh and Nordhaug go in the Vuelta as they could be big players for Sky next year.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I guess some people will always dislike winners...go go the underdog!
Tall poppy syndrome is rampant.

It's not about disliking winners - it's about disliking the same winners winning in the same way every time. Watching the same thing happen over and over again gets old quick.

 

[L'arriviste]

Sunderland wasn't sacked. He quit of his own accord in order to spend time with his family and help care for his son who is sick.

Not having watched Sky that closely after the Omloop Het Nieuwsblad, I don't think I even realised that Sunderland had quit until the Giro. Was it really just a personal thing or am I going along with the cynical times in which we live by seeing that as a euphemism for musical differences?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think moving forward they need to determine what direction they want to take as a Team. Do they continue to concentrate on Grand Tour GC's? If so then they must learn from this years mistakes and not put all their eggs in one basket and focus purely on Wiggins. Another GC contender would be a good useful accquistion. However if they maintian that Wiggins can challenge in the Tour then they need to accquire some better calibre guys for the mountains. Lofkvist is a good solid rider who will pretty much guarantee you a top 20 in GC but he does not have pure climbing ability that you need at GT level. It was interesting to see them linked with Uran, although he is unlikely to join.

The problem that they do have here is that which I mentioned before - that because so much of their rhetoric (because that's likely all it is) has been about a British winner of the Tour, then it's not a very good motivator for a genuine GC contender to join, because even if those comments are pretty much just for the British public, they will be internalised by the riders; a non-British GC contender may well begin to feel that their aims and goals are secondary to those of a British GC contender, just as what seemingly happened to Kreuziger at Liquigas (though to be fair, Liqui's Italian GC contenders are more successful and established than Wiggins). The other problem of course is that, unlike other recent start-up/build-up teams like Cervélo and BMC, Sky do not have an experienced GT contender. Sastre at Cervélo and Evans at BMC are both riders who've been at the top level for several years and so they can help direct the team to best help them; even better, they've contended for major races without top level support in the past, so the team can trust them to get up there while they develop that support. Wiggins only had one GC ride before signing for Sky, and needed helpers. He had no experience of how to approach a Grand Tour as a team leader (Vande Velde had been the team leader going into the '09 Tour).

To be fair to Sky, they have stepped back from a lot of their rhetoric, and hopefully for them that means they'll be able to attract a more established GC name; top drawer climbing domestiques can only help you if the rider they're domestiquing for can stay with them, or if they're going to be turned into GC riders themselves. Otherwise, they would probably be better served going for wins in sprints and classics. Henderson is a good second-tier sprinter; he won't be winning against the Cavs of this world, but especially now Greipel is leaving Columbia and the races like Austria, Poland, TDU and so on will become more open contests as a result, Sky could certainly pick up a number of wins at these events without even changing their team lineup - another year's experience could be vital.

 

[Mambo95]

Not having watched Sky that closely after the Omloop Het Nieuwsblad, I don't think I even realised that Sunderland had quit until the Giro. Was it really just a personal thing or am I going along with the cynical times in which we live by seeing that as a euphemism for musical differences?

It's genuinely a personal thing. His son suffers from a very serious liver disorder which requires a lot of attention. Sunderland's quit Euro cycling all together and is moving back to Australia.

 

[adamski101]

The problem that they do have here is that which I mentioned before - that because so much of their rhetoric (because that's likely all it is) has been about a British winner of the Tour, then it's not a very good motivator for a genuine GC contender to join, because even if those comments are pretty much just for the British public, they will be internalised by the riders; a non-British GC contender may well begin to feel that their aims and goals are secondary to those of a British GC contender, just as what seemingly happened to Kreuziger at Liquigas (though to be fair, Liqui's Italian GC contenders are more successful and established than Wiggins). The other problem of course is that, unlike other recent start-up/build-up teams like Cervélo and BMC, Sky do not have an experienced GT contender. Sastre at Cervélo and Evans at BMC are both riders who've been at the top level for several years and so they can help direct the team to best help them; even better, they've contended for major races without top level support in the past, so the team can trust them to get up there while they develop that support. Wiggins only had one GC ride before signing for Sky, and needed helpers. He had no experience of how to approach a Grand Tour as a team leader (Vande Velde had been the team leader going into the '09 Tour).

To be fair to Sky, they have stepped back from a lot of their rhetoric, and hopefully for them that means they'll be able to attract a more established GC name; top drawer climbing domestiques can only help you if the rider they're domestiquing for can stay with them, or if they're going to be turned into GC riders themselves. Otherwise, they would probably be better served going for wins in sprints and classics. Henderson is a good second-tier sprinter; he won't be winning against the Cavs of this world, but especially now Greipel is leaving Columbia and the races like Austria, Poland, TDU and so on will become more open contests as a result, Sky could certainly pick up a number of wins at these events without even changing their team lineup - another year's experience could be vital.

Absolutely, I agree. There are wins to be had within the current squad and I think it will be a much level palying field next year in the, shall we say, lesser events. All the psycho babble about aggregating marginal gains and the thin blue line certainly didn't help with their public perception but it is interesting to note since the tour they have been less vocal. A British tour winner I am sure was a bit of spin to get the British public on side, but to be honest (and i am british) I can't see that happening in the next 10 years, let alone 5!! But even if it was spin, it would be more than enough to deter a number of possible signings.

I think your point about Cervelo & BMC is very valid, and I think Sky missed a trick there. I personally think that Wiggins wasn't anywhere near the form he was last year and added to that the wieght of expectation it could only mean one thing. I still maintain that he is more than capable with the right preparation and form of being able to finsih top 10 at the tour, ok it's not a win, but it's a damn sight better than most of the peloton will ever manage. i would like to see him more active in early part of next year and ride more aggressively and try and grab a few wins. I think it would give him and the team a lot of confidence.

It is possible to go looking for wins at all races and yet still compete at the grand tours in terms of GC, Liquigas have shown that this year and maybe Columbia will re assess now that Greipel is leaving and look to GC for Giro or Vuelta.

I have waited a long time to see a British pro team at the top level, and nothing would please me more than seeing a Brit win a grand tour, but I am also realistic enough to know that it may never happen, but if Sky can still be successful and get their share of the spoils I would be more than happy with that.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I still maintain that he is more than capable with the right preparation and form of being able to finsih top 10 at the tour, ok it's not a win, but it's a damn sight better than most of the peloton will ever manage. i would like to see him more active in early part of next year and ride more aggressively and try and grab a few wins. I think it would give him and the team a lot of confidence.

I think this was certainly a problem for them; Wiggins had not approached a season with the GC of the Tour as a main aim before in his entire career, and the team, as a first-year team, weren't experienced at how to build a season programme for that. Wiggins still has the ability, but he doesn't have the surprise factor anymore, and the route didn't help him; his GC in 2009 was about getting into a good position from a longish prologue and a TTT and then managing the race. That's the kind of rider he is and needs to be, so he could well be better served next year with a TTT early on. Also, I think that because he staked so much on the Tour, he didn't show himself much at all in the early season. As a result, there was no evidence from a race like País Vasco, Catalunya, Paris-Nice or Tirreno-Adriatico to show that he had the climbing form. A bit more of a GC dig at those, rather than happily rolling around, may have shown him just what the gap between his climbing form at the time and that of GC contenders like Sánchez and Contador was, which would have made it easier for him to choose his training program.

I have waited a long time to see a British pro team at the top level, and nothing would please me more than seeing a Brit win a grand tour, but I am also realistic enough to know that it may never happen, but if Sky can still be successful and get their share of the spoils I would be more than happy with that.

The problem for Britons and Grand Tours is that, unless they chance upon a golden talent (like Robert Millar), which is pure luck, then the cycling scene in Britain is simply not cut out for creating Grand Tour riders. A domestic scene that comprises mostly city centre crits and one-day races may be all they can realistically manage in Britain because of how little-developed cycling is, but it will not create Grand Tour riders. British cycling has an academy in Italy, but the gap in standards between that and the ProTour is too large; its most successful product, Mark Cavendish, still went to an intermediary (Team Nutrixxion-Sparkasse, racing the German domestic calendar) before making it to the top level. Alex Dowsett looks to be doing the same. At least one of these changes needs to be made in order for the idea of a British Tour winner to be more realistic:

1) more riders relocate abroad and ride for teams on the Continent
2) Team Sky sets up a Continental or ProContinental team like Rabobank Continental, Itera-Katyusha, Orbea, Beveren2000-QuickStep or Lotto-Bodysol in order to bring young academy talents to the next level without putting them straight into the ProTour firing line
3) British domestic teams race more international races, more stage races and more mountainous races, so that the domestic riders become more au fait with difficult parcours
4) money is thrown at the domestic scene to try to create more stage races or more mountainous races in order that the British conveyor belt of talent can churn out riders who haven't come from the track.

Because the track is the main source of talent in the UK, this does mean that the riders produced are likely to be sprinters, classics men and time triallists. Britain has some very good ones of these, or ones with the potential to be very good. They shouldn't sacrifice a rider's natural talent trying to make him something he's not (eg, Geraint Thomas clearly has the ability to compete in the cobbled classics if carefully nurtured. He will not become a Tour de France contender if we are realistic, so don't try to make him a GC rider). Australia is similarly a country with a large focus on the track, but it plucked a potential GT winner from MTB. Perhaps, if they're really after a Tour winner, Britain should look at developing mountain bikers for the road - Peter Sagan, Jakob Fuglsang and Floyd Landis all had this background - rather than trackies.

 

[simoni]

1) more riders relocate abroad and ride for teams on the Continent
2) Team Sky sets up a Continental or ProContinental team like Rabobank Continental, Itera-Katyusha, Orbea, Beveren2000-QuickStep or Lotto-Bodysol in order to bring young academy talents to the next level without putting them straight into the ProTour firing line
3) British domestic teams race more international races, more stage races and more mountainous races, so that the domestic riders become more au fait with difficult parcours
4) money is thrown at the domestic scene to try to create more stage races or more mountainous races in order that the British conveyor belt of talent can churn out riders who haven't come from the track.

Some interesting stuff here. Its true that the domestic scene in UK is largely time trials and one-day races. Theres a massive issue in Uk with road closures/police etc. which has affected the development of cycling for years and is more recently making it difficult and expensive to hold road running races (my main sport) too. The topography doesn't help either - I believe that climbers are largely born rather than made but it still doesn't help that that its impossible to replicate an alpine climb on British shores.

The facts are that we've now got more riders racing for Protour and conti teams than we have for years (and I think this years TDF participation was the highest its been since the 60s/70s) but it would still be good to get the talented guys out to development teams and getting them into races such as the Tour D'Avenir etc. as soon as possible so they aren't at a disadvantage compared with the europeans.

In summary there is work to do but things have happened and are happening that give me a lot of optimism for British pro road cycling over the next 5-10 years.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There may not be the terrain for a proper Alpine climb, but there are areas of the country that can be used to teach people to climb - people don't climb Ventoux in U19 races often, you know! Scotland, the Lake District and other areas have lots of short, sharp climbs, and some short stage races around there would be ideal for helping Britons discover climbing talents they may have, as would getting invites to things like Circuito Montañes. Even if it's just a series of circuit races - why not have a circuit going up one Lake District Pass, 10-15 laps one day, then another one the following day? You could cause minimal obstruction with races that last 3 hours or so, going over the same pass, and could put together maybe a five day race that way. It would teach you who can deal with short sharp climbs (Ardennes-style or Paris-Nice style) and it would teach you who can deal with stage racing.

 

[euanli]

Millar learnt to climb in the hills around Glasgow. The Rest Be Thankful, Crow Road and Tak Ma Doon are all challenging climbs, the Tak especially is challenging as the gradient is steep and keeps changing. It would be amazing to have a stage race again like the Scottish Milk Tour and have riders do a couple of laps around the Tak and Crow Road.

 

[Derrick]

As I have already stated in a reply to the Tour of Britain thread there is absolutely no reason that we could not have seriously hilly races in the U.K. In fact there was a time when we had plenty of them and it was these races that bred climbers like Bill Bradley and Vic Sutton. When I first turned senior {yes, I know it's about a hundred years ago now} it was quite usual as a 3rd category rider to ride 4 laps of the Ashdown circuit which totalled 100 miles and finish on the summit of the Forest climb on the 4th climb, sometimes they even finished up an even steeper climb on the last lap. It wasn't the Alps but after 100 miles it felt like it. This season my local club was told to shorten its road race already only 50 miles to avoid climbing a mere pimple 5 times!
Simoni has rightly mentioned that we now have as many riders in the Tour as the 60/70s but this hides the fact that there were droves of riders in the 60's who went out and "had a go" under their own steam which given the structure of pro racing is probably impossible now. They didn't need a government grant or to be on a funded scheme to do it either. Contrary to Simoni I do not think things look any rosier now for British cycling than they've ever done. We have a very incestuous relationship between Sky and B.C. which is ,I'm given to understand, under investigation at the moment and which seems to have created a very cozy little in crowd. There is no shortage of money, every one you meet is a coach. In fact I'm sure there are more coaches than riders and of course there is no shortage of people wearing blazers and driving company cars but that's nothing new.
I could go on forever but I expect one or two of you are dozing off so I'd better leave it at that.

 

[ingsve]

As I mentioned in the transfer thread, Arvesen has been offered a DS role in Sky next year if he wants. That would at least be better than a random staffer without cycling experience behind the wheel but the question is if it provides the specific DS experience that is also needed.

 

[maltiv]

As I mentioned in the transfer thread, Arvesen has been offered a DS role in Sky next year if he wants. That would at least be better than a random staffer without cycling experience behind the wheel but the question is if it provides the specific DS experience that is also needed.

I think Arvesen could become a really great DS with time, but I hope he choses to do another year on the bike nonetheless.

 

[ingsve]

I think Arvesen could become a really great DS with time, but I hope he choses to do another year on the bike nonetheless.

Ya, he's in the same position as Ljungqvist was last year. Ljungqvist also had offers to ride but also the offer to DS and the question was whether the DS job would still exists in a years time. The same is true for Arvesen now.

 

[Anonymous]

Ya, he's in the same position as Ljungqvist was last year. Ljungqvist also had offers to ride but also the offer to DS and the question was whether the DS job would still exists in a years time. The same is true for Arvesen now.

I think arvesen will make a great DS, but i think next year is either a) too soon for him to be a DS, or b) if he is to be a DS too soon to put any pressure on him to do well in races. I think arvesen has another season as road captain in him. The question of who will be DS for the spring classics still remain.

As for the season, the gc's etc, theres some stuff i know that i can say, and some stuff I know that I cant. I dont think the team found their feet in certain areas until a few months into the season, diet, training, etc and I think that effected things later on in the year. A lot of "illness" early on etc, i think it took a while for the riders to settle.