Teejay Van Garderen Clinic Thread

[skippythepinhead]

Re: Re:

I see the stupidity is in full genius mode here again....carry on.

If you are referring to my post...too bad. I'm on the fence here. The pictures year to year are quite striking, the meltdown/sickness an air "de deja vu". You can disagree. You can argue. Or you can troll. Your choice.

If you are not referring to my post, yes, I see many excuses, many theories. How would he crack this early in the stage? How could his body let him down like this? Without warning it seems. After a rest day.

The crack probably happened when he tried to go for his rest day spin and found his legs had gone missing. Similar things have happened to me in training (though I'm obviously not a world class athlete)...(just this past weekend I had a 60 mile ride scheduled to finish a thousand mile month of training...in the first twelve miles I knew I had to either lower my speed target or cut my ride short. The legs were moving through mashed potatoes the whole way).

The "bad blood bag" notion is quaint but that would be a monumentally difficult thing to convince me of. Teejay's "jour sans" could just as easily be a normal (even doped normal) physical response to an insane event contested by dopers who have their formula (more) dialed in.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

I see the stupidity is in full genius mode here again....carry on.

If you are referring to my post...too bad. I'm on the fence here. The pictures year to year are quite striking, the meltdown/sickness an air "de deja vu". You can disagree. You can argue. Or you can troll. Your choice.

If you are not referring to my post, yes, I see many excuses, many theories. How would he crack this early in the stage? How could his body let him down like this? Without warning it seems. After a rest day.

The crack probably happened when he tried to go for his rest day spin and found his legs had gone missing. Similar things have happened to me in training (though I'm obviously not a world class athlete)...(just this past weekend I had a 60 mile ride scheduled to finish a thousand mile month of training...in the first twelve miles I knew I had to either lower my speed target or cut my ride short. The legs were moving through mashed potatoes the whole way).

The "bad blood bag" notion is quaint but that would be a monumentally difficult thing to convince me of. Teejay's "jour sans" could just as easily be a normal (even doped normal) physical response to an insane event contested by dopers who have their formula (more) dialed in.

Fair. I have had those too. But from the get go when the pace is not that high, that bad? After a rest day? When you program your season for this? Obviously FDJ got the peak wrong, so why not BMC having it wrong too? I'm not siding either way, but believe me, if it looks like something that I have seen before, my senses tell me that it could be the same story all over again. Like Sky-USPS, and in this case the De Las Cuevas sickness. Many similarities, flashback, questions.

 

[skippythepinhead]

Re: Re:

I see the stupidity is in full genius mode here again....carry on.

If you are referring to my post...too bad. I'm on the fence here. The pictures year to year are quite striking, the meltdown/sickness an air "de deja vu". You can disagree. You can argue. Or you can troll. Your choice.

If you are not referring to my post, yes, I see many excuses, many theories. How would he crack this early in the stage? How could his body let him down like this? Without warning it seems. After a rest day.

The crack probably happened when he tried to go for his rest day spin and found his legs had gone missing. Similar things have happened to me in training (though I'm obviously not a world class athlete)...(just this past weekend I had a 60 mile ride scheduled to finish a thousand mile month of training...in the first twelve miles I knew I had to either lower my speed target or cut my ride short. The legs were moving through mashed potatoes the whole way).

The "bad blood bag" notion is quaint but that would be a monumentally difficult thing to convince me of. Teejay's "jour sans" could just as easily be a normal (even doped normal) physical response to an insane event contested by dopers who have their formula (more) dialed in.

Fair. I have had those too. But from the get go when the pace is not that high, that bad? After a rest day? When you program your season for this? Obviously FDJ got the peak wrong, so why not BMC having it wrong too? I'm not siding either way, but believe me, if it looks like something that I have seen before, my senses tell me that it could be the same story all over again. Like Sky-USPS, and in this case the De Las Cuevas sickness. Many similarities, flashback, questions.

I did think the same thing too at first, I admit. I may just be so spoiled living in a house full of medically trained people that I scoffed at my own thought that they could possibly be that stupid. But, you're right, they've been that stupid before. It's a lot to risk for a chance at 3rd place though.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I actually think Van Garderen was in way too good shape too early (Dauphine) and also tried to hang with the leaders too long a couple of times (Pierre St Martin, clearly collapsing after trying to follow Froome. Also Mende, collapsing pretty badly after trying to follow).. and paid for it now. He was empty.

Well he clearly can't be on the same drugs as Wiggins or Froome then who in previous years have been in top shape in March and been able to carry it through the whole season.

 

[thrawn]

Re:

I actually think Van Garderen was in way too good shape too early (Dauphine) and also tried to hang with the leaders too long a couple of times (Pierre St Martin, clearly collapsing after trying to follow Froome. Also Mende, collapsing pretty badly after trying to follow).. and paid for it now. He was empty.

It's possible. But he was getting dropped by sprinters on cat 3s. I don't think you go from 3rd in the tour to that bad overnight without illness/bad blood bag.

 

[Ripper]

Re: Re:

I actually think Van Garderen was in way too good shape too early (Dauphine) and also tried to hang with the leaders too long a couple of times (Pierre St Martin, clearly collapsing after trying to follow Froome. Also Mende, collapsing pretty badly after trying to follow).. and paid for it now. He was empty.

Well he clearly can't be on the same drugs as Wiggins or Froome then who in previous years have been in top shape in March and been able to carry it through the whole season.

I think both of you have hit the main points on this story.

 

[EarnstMorrissey]

Cyclists have a long history of feigning illness to cover up for botched blood-transfusions, to get out of races where they may be tested or as an excuse for poor form brought on by a lack of PEDs. For such an illness to happen to a top contender right after the rest day is highly suspicious.

But this is the current climate of cycling, it's impossible to sort lies from truth. It might be a coincidence and the guy is genuinely sick, but it's a story we've heard before. I don't think anyone can be blamed for jumping to conclusions.

 

[Ripper]

Re:

Cyclists have a long history of feigning illness to cover up for botched blood-transfusions, to get out of races where they may be tested or as an excuse for poor form brought on by a lack of PEDs. For such an illness to happen to a top contender right after the rest day is highly suspicious.

But this is the current climate of cycling, it's impossible to sort lies from truth. It might be a coincidence and the guy is genuinely sick, but it's a story we've heard before. I don't think anyone can be blamed for jumping to conclusions.

I'm pretty sure that if it was a bad bag or something related, we'll hear about it. That level of transgression will get someone popped with the current testing environment.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

How much good does it do to come in 40 minutes down? And in doing so risking heart problems which can cause major problems and force them to rest for long periods and effectively cut short the 2016 season. You don't tough to out if you get sick, you leave the race and get healthy.

no, you get your dodgy TUE, your inhaler and then pulverize the opposition over the next week...

 

[Tyre Byter]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

FWIW my money is on a significant transfusion reaction.
For as gaunt as TeeJay looked the first week of the race I thought he had some pretty puffy cheeks especially prior to the rest day. A little glucocorticoid layered with some antihistamine and voila! But after digging deep for another week, the program may not have gone to plan on the second rest day.

Also, comparing him and his program to Froome, Wiggins, et al - don’t overlook that there are, and always will be, super-responders a la Secretariat. That horse was jacked with the same juice many other major horses of the era were, yet the records he set winning the Triple Crown still stand - 40+yrs later! He went on to sire hundreds of foals and interestingly enough, not one ever showed anything close to his performance.

 

[EarnstMorrissey]

Re: Re:

Cyclists have a long history of feigning illness to cover up for botched blood-transfusions, to get out of races where they may be tested or as an excuse for poor form brought on by a lack of PEDs. For such an illness to happen to a top contender right after the rest day is highly suspicious.

But this is the current climate of cycling, it's impossible to sort lies from truth. It might be a coincidence and the guy is genuinely sick, but it's a story we've heard before. I don't think anyone can be blamed for jumping to conclusions.

I'm pretty sure that if it was a bad bag or something related, we'll hear about it. That level of transgression will get someone popped with the current testing environment.

Ricco was only caught in 2011 because he told his non-team doctor that he had given himself a dodgy transfusion. He has no obligation to consult third-party doctors and I doubt it'd cause much of a stir on the BP if he was for some crazy reason blood tested that day.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

FWIW my money is on a significant transfusion reaction.
For as gaunt as TeeJay looked the first week of the race I thought he had some pretty puffy cheeks especially prior to the rest day. A little glucocorticoid layered with some antihistamine and voila! But after digging deep for another week, the program may not have gone to plan on the second rest day.

Also, comparing him and his program to Froome, Wiggins, et al - don’t overlook that there are, and always will be, super-responders a la Secretariat. That horse was jacked with the same juice many other major horses of the era were, yet the records he set winning the Triple Crown still stand - 40+yrs later! He went on to sire hundreds of foals and interestingly enough, not one ever showed anything close to his performance.

Good post tyre byter

 

[Carols]

Geez folks you need to name Clinic threads different than PRR threads. How did I end up here???? Because it has the Same name

 

[zastomito]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

super-responders a la Secretariat. That horse was jacked with the same juice many other major horses of the era were, yet the records he set winning the Triple Crown still stand - 40+yrs later! He went on to sire hundreds of foals and interestingly enough, not one ever showed anything close to his performance.

No champion thoroughbred ever replicated himself. Sec produced strong female offsprings and one of his sons won two out of three legs of triple crown (Risen star if I remember). He was moderately successfully as a stud but much better than Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Ribott and many other race horses. On the other hand he indeed was a freak of nature which autopsy confirmed.

 

[Irondan]

mod bump

 

[buckle]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

FWIW my money is on a significant transfusion reaction.
For as gaunt as TeeJay looked the first week of the race I thought he had some pretty puffy cheeks especially prior to the rest day. A little glucocorticoid layered with some antihistamine and voila! But after digging deep for another week, the program may not have gone to plan on the second rest day.

Also, comparing him and his program to Froome, Wiggins, et al - don’t overlook that there are, and always will be, super-responders a la Secretariat. That horse was jacked with the same juice many other major horses of the era were, yet the records he set winning the Triple Crown still stand - 40+yrs later! He went on to sire hundreds of foals and interestingly enough, not one ever showed anything close to his performance.

Unlike Northern Dancer which seems to have been a genuine animal and sired so many group one winners it's ridiculous. I had no idea Secretariat failed at stud.

 

[zastomito]

Northern Dancer was more carefully bred than Secretariat. Nearco and Native Dancer as grandsires, two of the most important studs in the history right there. Secretariat wasn't failure as a stud.

 

[mikez]

Re: Re:

The only thing weird I find about this is he pulled out so early in the race and didn't try to tough it out a bit more ala Porte but guess illness does affect some people more than others. Is also why Porte is probably signing with BMC

Didn't he struggle after the second rest day last year as well?

Tough it out?

Doping talk aside, I always think it's funny when riders get "sick" during a GT. It's a bit of a joke if you ask me. How sick can you be while doing 200km a day over 4000 meters of climbing? Not that sick I would presume.

Because this is what they get paid for and they're in the biggest race of the year. The amount of people who have pulled out this year due to what I'm presuming is the same illness says it all.

Must point out I said tough it out when I thought it was his first day with the illness, he seems to have been doing that since stage 13

Because they are paid for it?

How much good does it do to come in 40 minutes down? And in doing so risking heart problems which can cause major problems and force them to rest for long periods and effectively cut short the 2016 season. You don't tough to out if you get sick, you leave the race and get healthy.

My points that I think few of them are actually that sick. From a team perspective it's not good business risking your assets just to have them cling onto the autobus and surviving.

With the ultra low body fat and the incredible stress they put their bodies through it's not surprising at all. Doping or not, it's not healthy to do this to yourself. Personally, I'm surprised more of them don't pull out sick.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Comparison of physical performances of Horses and cyclists. Both can be doped.

 

[hrotha]

Van Garderen has a curious relationship with rest days.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Van Garderen has a curious relationship with rest days.

He'd be very good on a proper program. Just doesn't appear to be a responder.

 

[Saint Unix]

After watching today's stage I'm extremely happy with calling Tejay having a bad rest day bag a few days ago. I feel like I've come to know the sport quite well.

The other stuff... didn't care for it that much.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Van Garderen has a curious relationship with rest days.

Yeah.For 3 years in a row now.

 

[doperhopper]

bad bag? hope not cobra style...

 

[Saint Unix]

Richie probably slipped a bit of his toxic ex-Sky blood into Tejay's bag and Tejay couldn't handle the potency.