Tennis

[zebedee]

You can prove the highlighted statements above, I trust?

Agassi?

1. Show me any player in the history of modern tennis who won the majority of his grand slam titles after the age of 29.
2. Known association with Gil Reyes, a full-on roid user and banned himself from college sports at one point.
3. Known for his extended breaks off tour and returning back on tour turbo-charged.
4. A self-admitted liar and cheat.
5. Strange behaviour like his sudden disappearance from the AO one year when faced with an in-competition doping control.

You mention Sara Errani in another post. She quite literally shot mid-career from nowhere to world No 6 (now, I think) since her hook-up with Del Moral. Just as significantly are her results against top ten and twenty ranked WTA pros where the stats are stark indeed. You might wish to ask Del Moral to explain Errani's unprecedented change in fortune. She herself ascribes it to a change of racquet. Some racquet. Can I have one?

 

[dermotmeagher]

Agassi?

1. Show me any player in the history of modern tennis who won the majority of his grand slam titles after the age of 29.
2. Known association with Gil Reyes, a full-on roid user and banned himself from college sports at one point.
3. Known for his extended breaks off tour and returning back on tour turbo-charged.
4. A self-admitted liar and cheat.
5. Strange behaviour like his sudden disappearance from the AO one year when faced with an in-competition doping control.

All well and good, but at best circumstantial, don't you agree? Agassi was/is far from angelic, I admit, but your definitive statement assumes proof.

You mention Sara Errani in another post. She quite literally shot mid-career from nowhere to world No 6 (now, I think) since her hook-up with Del Moral. Just as significantly are her results against top ten and twenty ranked WTA pros where the stats are stark indeed. You might wish to ask Del Moral to explain Errani's unprecedented change in fortune. She herself ascribes it to a change of racquet. Some racquet. Can I have one?

Errani is a good case in point, her tie-in with Del Moral may well be instructive. Now that she has disowned him and broken off her "relationship" with him, it will be interesting to see how she fares.

In her defence, she does have a very unique playing style, especially well suited to clay and difficult for the hard court flat hitters to deal with.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

2. Known association with Gil Reyes, a full-on roid user and banned himself from college sports at one point.

Do you have a source for that (the bit about the ban from college sports). I suspect that what you say is true but I'd like to read about it.

I remember reading Agassi's book and being taken in by the "Open" nature of it but now I suspect I was duped.

Re-calling the passage where Agassi talks about his Crystal Meth positive and the threat of it being exposed publicly: "my problem with tennis is a nagging sense that it's all pointless, meaningless. Now I'm about to find out the true meaning of the word "meaningless", I'll be nothing a cautionary tale. "

I thought he was a bit extreme at the time in his alarm at the possibility of testing positive for crystal meth. Now, I suspect that he was panicked to a degree because he didn't want people questioning the full extent of his drug use.

 

[zebedee]

With all the comment about lack of doping control in tennis and the revelations of routine, obligatory, endemic doping within cycling, I sense a lot of uncertainty within pro tennis presently. This will naturally lead to more upsets such as we've just witnessed in Paris yesterday and today, with Djokovic and Murray. No top 4 player makes the quarter final of a Masters tournament. You tell me when that last happened.

The playing field might just be evening out a bit which is no bad thing: more upsets in the results of top ranked players and younger players finding it easier to burst through. Two bell weather players to watch over the coming months are Errani and Ferrer. If they can't stay juiced now, both will find difficulty in hanging around where they are presently in the rankings.

The story of Agassi's turnround with Gill Reyes is almost a fairytale, almost but not quite. There are no fairy tales in tennis. Maybe in cycling perhaps, but certainly not tennis. Reyes is known for a dodgy history as a trainer prior to his association with Agassi, being banned from either college basketball or football at one point for encouraging or allowing steroid abuse.

In my opinion, Agassi's book does not reveal the full truth of his doping history. I believe his full doping story is more ped related than recreational. You may have hit the nail on the head with your own assessment.

 

[robow7]

"This will naturally lead to more upsets such as we've just witnessed in Paris yesterday and today, with Djokovic and Murray. No top 4 player makes the quarter final of a Masters tournament. You tell me when that last happened."

It happens whenever players want to tank a match and exit a tourney early so they can save themselves for the main event coming up which is the year ending tourney.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Good article here. Journalists are finally peeping above the parapet..even in tennis.

http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/11/lance-effect/39988/

Sara Errani, David Ferrer, and Dinara Safina have all been asked about their connections with Armstrong’s doctor, the now-banned Luis Garcia del Moral, in Valencia, Spain

As has been noted many times, the role of the International Cycling Union in testing its own riders is a conflicted one. It polices the sport it promotes. The same is true for tennis That's never going to be an ideal blend of missions.

In the comments below the article..

A perfect example outside of tennis was Tiger Woods using the Canadian doctor (later indicted) for 'blood spinning' though apparently not for the steroid stuff..hopefully.

interesting !!

 

[zebedee]

It happens whenever players want to tank a match and exit a tourney early so they can save themselves for the main event coming up which is the year ending tourney.

That's disrespectful to their two opponents, both of whom scrapped like mad to win a set and take the match into a decider. Murray was outplayed in the final set by an on-fire Janowicz. You could say, after losing a match point and sensing Janowicz's big game, he kind of gave up but I wouldn't go as far as saying he tanked. Stupid to throw away a chance of taking another Masters title and has done nothing for his locker room credibility either.

Interesting article, Cycle Chic. No puffs of smoke coming out of the ITF's chimney as of yet. The silence remains deafening.

 

[Dutchsmurf]

That's disrespectful to their two opponents, both of whom scrapped like mad to win a set and take the match into a decider. Murray was outplayed in the final set by an on-fire Janowicz. You could say, after losing a match point and sensing Janowicz's big game, he kind of gave up but I wouldn't go as far as saying he tanked. Stupid to throw away a chance of taking another Masters title and has done nothing for his locker room credibility either.

Interesting article, Cycle Chic. No puffs of smoke coming out of the ITF's chimney as of yet. The silence remains deafening.

Throwing away or not, this basically happens every year at the end of the season. Players either don't show up (Nadal, Federer) or aren't at their usual level (Murray, etc). The end of the tennis season is always a bit like who is the last man standing.

 

[Altitude]

Roger wants more testing:

''I don't like it when I'm only getting tested, whatever number it is, which I don't think is enough, sufficient during the year. So I think we should up it a little bit,'' Federer said. ''I think it's key and vital the sport stays clean. It's got to.''

 

[martinvickers]

Roger wants more testing:

''I don't like it when I'm only getting tested, whatever number it is, which I don't think is enough, sufficient during the year. So I think we should up it a little bit,'' Federer said. ''I think it's key and vital the sport stays clean. It's got to.''

IN Roger's case, I'm not surprised - possibly the greatest 'touch' player of the modern era, if not all eras, finds himself in endless endurance battles against returning machines...hardly a shock if he thinks like this, deserved or not...

 

[Altitude]

Yes I'd wager that Federer has always been clean. Murray, Djokovic, Nadal absolutely not.

 

[martinvickers]

Yes I'd wager that Federer has always been clean. Murray, Djokovic, Nadal absolutely not.

I'm not sure about Roger being ALWAYS clean - I just don't know - but RF is clearly the superior player on those metrics not linked with aerobic fitness - touch, technique, imagination - all the intangible crap - but over time he has found himself facing what can only be described as returning machines, each of which has had an 'eureka' year - Murray being the last of these with back to back" wimbledon final, olympic gold, olympic doubles silver, us open gold".

Now Nadal was brought up in Spain, obviously. Slightly less obviously, most of Murray's early training was in Spain, away from LTA structures.

You know, i wonder sometimes; the LTA in GB gets regularly beaten up for wasting the Wimbledon millions and producing no players. But what if the only real failure of the LTA is, how shall we put it, naivite? I find it rather interesting that Heather Watson, the new GB great women's hope, was born in guernsey, but trained in florida (agassi, ahem)...

Of course, much of this is idle gossip and backbiting - which would break my normal rules - except I don't really care ALL that much about tennis ;-)

 

[Altitude]

Yeah I know what you mean, no doping (or less doping) obviously favors Roger, with his dominant intangibles or 'tennis sense'. So it makes sense that he'd be an advocate for more testing, even if he's also doping.

But I think he's clean. He's got the same physique as he had when he first entered the pro circuit. Can't say the same about a lot of other guys. Roger used to have the best forehand in the game, due to its versatility and accuracy, but now it barely holds up against the likes of Djokovic and Berdych. His game has never really changed, always relied on finesse and skill, never on power.

Anyways players like this don't really have a place in tennis anymore (at least at the very top). Federer is the last of the breed.

 

[Cyivel]

Lads as I'm interested in this subject I'd be obliged if you could link me to the connections the players you have mentioned have to doping, dodgy doctors, covered up positives etc

 

[Cyivel]

Just read that post and it sounds really passive aggressive, it's not meant to, I have a genuine interest in this subject, thanks.

 

[blackcat]

Yes I'd wager that Federer has always been clean. Murray, Djokovic, Nadal absolutely not.

I'd wager even Rafter was not.

None of the above are. And some are more egregious than others.

 

[blackcat]

I'm not sure about Roger being ALWAYS clean - I just don't know - but RF is clearly the superior player on those metrics not linked with aerobic fitness - touch, technique, imagination - all the intangible crap - but over time he has found himself facing what can only be described as returning machines, each of which has had an 'eureka' year - Murray being the last of these with back to back" wimbledon final, olympic gold, olympic doubles silver, us open gold".

Now Nadal was brought up in Spain, obviously. Slightly less obviously, most of Murray's early training was in Spain, away from LTA structures.

You know, i wonder sometimes; the LTA in GB gets regularly beaten up for wasting the Wimbledon millions and producing no players. But what if the only real failure of the LTA is, how shall we put it, naivite? I find it rather interesting that Heather Watson, the new GB great women's hope, was born in guernsey, but trained in florida (agassi, ahem)...

Of course, much of this is idle gossip and backbiting - which would break my normal rules - except I don't really care ALL that much about tennis ;-)

Federer could not play through three sets in his nascent career. Then he beat Philippoussis. Then went on his tear. But another guy, was Joker, he had a problem with his endurance early in his career. These players are now the fittest, most physically capable on the circuit. And remember when Rafa had his knee or shoulder problems, and the next year, he came into the Aus Open, really lean, ALOT thinner. Perhaps 7kgs of red tissue muscle leaner. He was HOPELESS, he was mortal, that January. He went back to his old self, by the last half of that year tho. And the muscle returned with alacrity.

 

[sittingbison]

Federer could not play through three sets in his nascent career. Then he beat Philippoussis....

The Poo was definitely not doped, he hardly ever made it through three sets.



Doped on PEDs that is

 

[martinvickers]

Lads as I'm interested in this subject I'd be obliged if you could link me to the connections the players you have mentioned have to doping, dodgy doctors, covered up positives etc

http://elpais.com/diario/2006/07/05/deportes/1152050423_850215.html

 

[Cyivel]

http://elpais.com/diario/2006/07/05/deportes/1152050423_850215.html

TY Martin

10c

 

[thrawn]

Federer could not play through three sets in his nascent career. Then he beat Philippoussis. Then went on his tear. But another guy, was Joker, he had a problem with his endurance early in his career. These players are now the fittest, most physically capable on the circuit. And remember when Rafa had his knee or shoulder problems, and the next year, he came into the Aus Open, really lean, ALOT thinner. Perhaps 7kgs of red tissue muscle leaner. He was HOPELESS, he was mortal, that January. He went back to his old self, by the last half of that year tho. And the muscle returned with alacrity.

Except that time he beat some fella called Sampras in 5 sets at Wimbledon as a 20 year old.

From 03-06 Federer was so far above everyone on a tennis court (except Nadal on clay) that his endurance was rarely tested, he just walloped everyone.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Except that time he beat some fella called Sampras in 5 sets at Wimbledon as a 20 year old.

From 03-06 Federer was so far above everyone on a tennis court (except Nadal on clay) that his endurance was rarely tested, he just walloped everyone.

Agreed and he never broke 130Mph consistently on his serve.

 

[blackcat]

Except that time he beat some fella called Sampras in 5 sets at Wimbledon as a 20 year old.

From 03-06 Federer was so far above everyone on a tennis court (except Nadal on clay) that his endurance was rarely tested, he just walloped everyone.

he was. But its not an either-or fallacy.

See Andrew Ille's quote on the subject.

 

[el_angliru]

Roger Federer calls for increased blood testing

According to figures on its website the International Tennis Federation, the sport's governing body, carried out only 21 out-of-competition blood tests in the professional game in 2011.

Cycling's governing body the UCI carried out more than 3,314 out-of-competition blood tests in the same year.

 

[User Guide]

Roger Federer calls for increased blood testing

hey cut tennis some slack, 21 OOCT is more than doubvle 2010 when there was erm 10 and erm 21 more than 2009 and 2008 when there was erm none , strangely was 32 in 2006 which is the highest
Edit, Serenna Williams was tested out of comp by ITF in 2010 and 2011 zero times of any sort blood or urine,also in the same time period was tested out of comp by USADA erm zero times :S WTF