The 2021 CQ Ranking Manager Thread

NOTE: Due to early season cancellations of races, I've extended the deadline for team submissions from January 21st to January 28th. Please see bolded edits below for details

Hi all, and welcome to the 2021 CQ Ranking Manager Game! This is the eleventh edition of the game, wow! Please see below for some history, basics, and more specific rules related to dates, dopers, etc. 2020 was anything but a normal year, but mostly the "normal" rules will apply to the 2021 game, although note the later start to the season means a later deadline for team submissions.

History

The game was launched on December 8th 2010 by cyclingnews forum poster Hugo Koblet. His idea was to have a game where you build a cycling team from the website cqranking.com and its comprehensive numerical rankings of riders. What was originally meant to be a 25-team max competition that Hugo reserved the right to cancel if there was lack of interest became the most successful game in cyclingnews forum history, and has expanded to velorooms forums as well.

Hugo successfully ran the game for 3 years, and it bred various offshoots, such as a youth game, seasonal games (classics and GTs), emerging riders and riders in decline games. I took over organizing the main game for 2014 when Hugo got too busy, and have done so for the past seven years. See the second post in this thread for a roll of honour of yearly champions.


That is it for preamble. Let’s go through the more comprehensive set of rules:

Basics

The game is based on the point system developed by the website www.cqranking.com. Based on this system you will have to select a team of between 25 and 33 riders whose combined value doesn’t exceed 7500 points. 7500 points is normally under the mean for the ProTour teams, but due to reasons we are all painfully aware of, the mean for 2020 is 5528. 7500 is closest to the amount of points Team Ineos made this season, the 4th ranked of the 19 WT teams. So you can get a pretty good team with 7500 points!

Your aim then is to select a team of riders who will increase their 2020 score the most during the 2021 season. The winner of the game is the one who has selected the team with the highest combined value when the game ends.


1. How the game works

1.1. Start & Finish

The season starts when the first major race (.1 or higher) giving CQ points is held* and ends when the last major race is held. The winner will be crowned when the next update after the last major race is out.**

*normally, the game season starts when the first race giving out points is held, which is usually the Aussie nationals soon after the new year. However, with covid-scheduling pushing those back to early February, the first race as far as the game is concerned is the Vuelta San Juan starting January 24th. There are currently a few 2.2 races scheduled before then, but any points scored by riders in those races will be reflected in the first update.

*NOTE: with the cancellation of San Juan and the Mallorca races, the first scheduled race .1 or higher is GP Marseillaise on Jan 31st.

**An extension will be granted to the end of season if it is very close at the top. If any teams are within 100 points of the leader after the last major race, the season will be automatically extended until the final race of the year unless all teams within 100 points explicitly concede. As well, anyone in the top 10 can extend the season by PMing me a request to do so before the last major race starts.

(The reason for this second rule is that although minor races go through December, it is rare to have a rider in the game participate in these races, so it is sensible to end the season when people are still generally watching cycling. But if it's a very close race, it's important to crown the person who picked the best team for the year.)

1.2 Updates
Each week we will publish an update with a top 10 and a list of the high scorers and high jumpers. This will sometimes be by me, and sometimes by others – I will be setting a tentative schedule based on volunteers.

2. On doping

2.1. On ex-dopers

All riders are available to choose, except for riders who are provisionally suspended by the UCI (as of their most recent list).

Riders who have been suspended for doping and had that affect their 2020 score will not be available simply for their 2020 score. Instead, a rider’s value will be equivalent to that of his last full season; or, if he has more recently had a (not full, due to suspension) season in which he has earned more points, that season represents his value. Riders who have been suspended by the UCI (ie. Not merely provisionally suspended) are on this list.

Therefore, you can pick any rider you like, but if you want to take Kristian Koren, for example (his suspension ends in 2021), he got 41 points in 2019, but that is a partial season as his ban ended mid-season. His positive result and suspension came from 2019, meaning his last 'full' season was 2018, in which he scored 91 points. He scored fewer points in his 'partial' 2019 season, so his cost is his last 'full' season. But if he had scored, say, 300 points in 2019, that would be his cost instead.

Hopefully the lists I've provided and the rules are clear enough, but if you make an error I will try to let you know if any of your submissions fall into this category.

**NOTE: I have made a specific rule to deal with the unique case of Dylan Groenewegen, who is facing a long suspension for a non-doping offense. Briefly, he is to be treated the same as dopers, available for his 2019 cost for both the 2021 and 2022 editions of the game.

2.2. Riders getting caught during the season

If you include a rider in your team who gets caught with his hands in the cookie jar, nothing happens right away. Your rider keeps his points unless the cqranking.com deletes his results before the end of the game.

Basically, the value of a rider on cqranking.com always stands.

3. Submitting your team

3.1. How do I?

You pick between 25 and 33 riders whose combined value doesn’t exceed 7500 points and send the list to me.

As I will manually have to include the teams into the Microsoft Excel file which keeps track of the scores, please be careful that you send your team to me based on the correct formula. I don’t take any responsibility for any error you might make. If I spot an error I will do my best to contact you but I can’t guarantee anything. Of course, if you have any questions feel free to ask either here in this thread or by sending a personal message.

The layout you need to use is this:

ROGLIC Primoz
POGACAR Tadej
Etc.

Nothing else. No point scores after the name. Also, be careful that there is no “space” after the name, because I will have to delete it manually, but can't always detect these things in time for the game. If there is an error that isn't discovered until after the game starts, and that error makes your team ineligible (eg. if it puts your team over the limit) the rider will simply be deleted from the team without replacement.

To make things easier for both you and me I will link to a file for you to download in which you can type in your team and it will automatically show you the value of each rider as well as the aggregated value of your team. Then you will just have to copy your team (names only) directly from this file and send it to me.

Hopefully this clears any misunderstandings of a rider’s value as well as reduces the number of errors made in a team sent to me.

3.2. When do I?
The first race of the season will start January 24, so I want to have your team in hand on January 22 at the latest.

NOTE: the first race of the season is now January 31st, so I want teams by January 29th. That is one week later than the original post.


There are two deadlines: a submission deadline and a revision/publication deadline, spaced 24 hours apart. This is to address the issue brought up in recent years about whether it is 'fair' to allow changes after teams have seen the teams of other players, and for 'late' submissions. I would like to make this a game that is accessible to as many people as possible, yet preserve that element of fairness. So, the submission deadline will be when I want to have received all the teams. The revision and publication deadline is to allow a 24-hour period for me to look over the teams and allow a chance to people to change their team in case of error, before having access to a list of riders that other teams picked. If you get mixed up with the time zone or unexpectedly don't have internet access around the submission deadline, I will accept teams up to the revision deadline at my discretion, but if allowed those teams will not have the chance to revise in case of error.

The submission deadline is 23:59 (CET) January 21st, so early January 22nd for Aussies and sometime earlier on January 21st for North Americans. NOTE: the submission deadline has changed to 23:59 CET January 28th. The revision and publication deadline is 24 hours later; I would ask that people refrain from posting the riders on their team until after that, so midnight CET on the start of January 24th.

Please note that even though the racing season is over, it is always possible that CQ will adjust points for an earlier season race for whatever reason (eg. readjusting points for suspended dopers) Be mindful of these changes.

cqranking.com usually uploads the final update of the season on December 31, and the values in this update are the ones we’re using. However, the changes are usually very small so there’s no reason why you can’t start selecting your team already today!

Disclaimer: ensuring your team is full of eligible riders and is on budget is your responsibility. If I notice you are over budget or have an ineligible rider I will send you a message, but if you don't get back to me in time, or I don't catch it before the deadline, I will simply remove one rider to make your budget work. Obviously it is to your advantage to be able to choose all your riders, so please be diligent.

Create Your Team


Hugo created a very helpful file in 2012, referred to above, that helps avoid any errors in calculation and helps ensure you are formatting your rider names correctly. I would encourage everyone to use this option, especially if you are not confident in your spreadsheet creating skills. Please use the file attached here to create your team, then copy and paste the rider names to send to me by PM once you have it correct. Thank you.

note: the 'create your team' file has not yet been manually updated to include different scores for dopers as per rule 2.1, so it is currently wholly your responsibility to account for this.

I think that about covers everything. If you have any questions or if I forgot to add or explain anything, please let me know.
 
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I'm going to reserve the second post in the thread for a list of teams who have submitted, as they come in, as well as list an honour roll of top finishers throughout the years.

I'm going to reserve the second post in the thread for a list of teams who have submitted, as they come in, as well as list an honour roll of top finishers throughout the years.



As of 8pm CET on January 26th, the following 47 teams have been submitted and confirmed (teams with asterisks next to their name need revisions before final approval):



1 Jon_Ezeitza
2 comodoro
3 Martin
4 Koronin
5 Bonimenier
6 R_O_Shipman
7 Lortnoc
8 armchairclimber
9 vladimir
10 NorthAmericanScum
11 Hakkie2
12 just some guy
13 scrooll07
14 sneekes
15 Leadbelly
16 zaka_fan
17 search
18 Armchair Cyclist
19 bminchow
20 Kazistuta
21 EvansIsTheBest
22 Eric10
23 triley36
24 Fivezzz
25 will10
26 rote_laterne
27 Hugo Koblet
28 Earns1985
29 Mellow Velo
30 VeloRooms
31 Amis Velo
32 ray10
33 Rebecops
34 Nevs**
35 Bicing
36 Salvarani
37 Blues in the bottle
38 Nicosix**
39 Nakazar
40 Total Package**
41 Jpettersen
42 FASTnotFURIOUS
43 PremierAndrew
44 Tigerion
45 Otoxiep87**
46 Muddy Waters**
47 tom-jelte



Also, here is the role of honour from previous years:



2011 – 87 participants

ingsve – 13897 points
Waterloo Sunrise – 13450
mc_mountain – 12670
2012 – 129 participants

skidmark – 19345 points
Kvinto – 18087
Nyssinator – 17761
2013 – 132 participants

SteelyDan – 13094 points
Geraint Too Fast – 13074
will10 – 12986
2014 – 150 participants

Pentacycle – 14367 points
Cykeltyven – 13693
Ruudz0r - 13609
2015 – 155 participants

Cykeltyven – 16209 points
skidmark - 15616
snccdcno - 15412
2016 – 144 participants

skidmark – 15392 points
jeroenk - 14707
abbulf – 14448
2017 – 131 participants

fauniera – 15867 points
the asian - 15698
GP Blanco - 15217
2018 – 129 participants

ruvu75 – 16513 points
Squire - 16099
trackstand - 15832
2019 - 114 participants



1. fauniera - 14579 points

2. karaev - 14399

3. Hakkie2 - 14260



2020 - 113 participants



1. bminchow - 10010 points

2. Wallenquist - 9520

3. Object- 9173
 
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Reactions: Salvarani
The relevant for the game must not the doping but the forced break. Groenewegen was given a official ban in 2020 so it must be his 2019 score that counts,.
Im just going off what the rules say of the game. It only mentions someone being specifically banned for doping and then in relation to what points should count.

His is not a doping ban and a "forced break" could be an injury. Should that rider have his 2019 score also, for example? If he was injured in 2020? Not how the game works as far as Im concerned.

If the rules said any ban, then that would be more correct. That is not clear though.
 
To avoid any discussion I think the easiest would be to give him his 2019 score. With 116 points he would be a rather popular pick, I assume, even if there are 100s of good picks for next year. My "shortlist" currently stands at 70 riders (without Dylan G) ,and I am nowhere near finished:p. Anyway; I hope Skidmark could decide if Dylan G would get his 2019 or 2020 score quite soon. As Hugo said in an earlier post" Christmas time is CQ time!"
 
Im just going off what the rules say of the game. It only mentions someone being specifically banned for doping and then in relation to what points should count.

His is not a doping ban and a "forced break" could be an injury. Should that rider have his 2019 score also, for example? If he was injured in 2020? Not how the game works as far as Im concerned.

If the rules said any ban, then that would be more correct. That is not clear though.
"Forced break" was a bad choise of words, I agree it should just say "any ban" and not specifically "doping ban" like the rules says now, sometimes the doping bans can also be in a bit of a grey area if its a doping ban or just a ban (for some doping related activities) I just think all official bans should count as it is the ban it self that matters in the game, not the actual doping.
 
I know their bans wasn't nowhere near as long, but neither Theo Bos or Gianni Moscon was inflicted in this game due to their bans. Thus I say leave Groenewegen at his 2020 price, a cheap pick for those who thinks he' mentally ready to compete again. There's plenty of obvious cheap picks anyway....
 
I know their bans wasn't nowhere near as long, but neither Theo Bos or Gianni Moscon was inflicted in this game due to their bans. Thus I say leave Groenewegen at his 2020 price, a cheap pick for those who thinks he' mentally ready to compete again. There's plenty of obvious cheap picks anyway....
FYI, as skidmark pointed out to me in a private message the Bos/Impey incident happened before the first edition of the game. As for Moscon his suspension came in 2018 which was the best season of his career CQ-wise so it was a moot point anyway. I'm not saying your take is wrong (though I would personnally lean toward using Groenewegen's 2019 score), I just don't think we can rely on those two examples as precedent.

Another thing to consider is the length of the ban. Losing a month/5 weeks of racing like Bos/Moscon might not affect your score too much (especially since they can still train to maintain their form and/or backload their schedule) but nine months is going to make your score artificially low which is the situation we're trying to avoid with the whole dopers rule in the first place.
 
Changing the rules after they been stated, is a decision that lies on the one hosting the game.

As the rules states as of now, you could include Groenewegen on a technicality. It is a loophole.

Changing the rules sets a precedent for future games, on these sort of things. Since they havent been applied or brought up before (Im unaware).

I think the only reason why we are discussing it is because it is a high-profile rider, that missed a large chunk of the season. That could potentially come back and score a lot of points or not. There are questions marks about picking him, but thats the game. Picking him or not picking him etc.

A high-profile rider missing the season because of 6 months of injury wouldnt have gathered the same discussion or even been brought up, should we count his last season where he were kinda good and scored more instead? Since it affected his "normal" score when he was injured.

Groenewegen didnt cheat for his results in his career (to our knowledge right now). He made a bad decision in a race. It was a diciplinary ban, which he received way later after the matter. It was his and the teams choice to not let him continue to race, affecting his score. Not a ban.
 
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Unfortunately I suspect Dylan will not be the last rider to get banned for such actions - I think there will be a precedent set for eg. bans for dangerous behaviour. It would be good to set a precedent within the game rather than treating Dylan's case as a one-off.

Personally I would lean towards any official suspension (doping or otherwise) triggering the highest score rule.
 
Unfortunately I suspect Dylan will not be the last rider to get banned for such actions - I think there will be a precedent set for eg. bans for dangerous behaviour. It would be good to set a precedent within the game rather than treating Dylan's case as a one-off.

Personally I would lean towards any official suspension (doping or otherwise) triggering the highest score rule.
Thats fine for the future to determine something.

But if we go back to his case and this years game. The ban didnt affect his score this season, since the ban came after the season was done. The team simply didnt put him in a race nor did he want to race. It is not like he couldnt have been selected if he and them wanted to. He wasnt hindered by a ban, that affected his score. Those are facts. Similar to a rider being out of it physically, because of an injury, he was out of it mentally (understandable) to continue the season.

Had he continued to race and scored points, would his results then had been scrapped retroactively? Perhaps, but then we just speculating and going of assumptions. What ifs.
 
Yeah. EITB asked about Groenewegen in a personal message and I've been mulling the situation over. It's an extremely unique case in terms of this game, as a) it's a very long ban for something that was not doping-related, b) the season was already shortened by covid and it was one of the first races back so his not racing the rest of the season depressed his score to the point where it makes a huge difference in his value in the game, and c) although the ban mostly affects missed racing in 2021 (thus being kind of the inverse of regular bans making riders cheaper in the year of the ban), his team's withdrawal of him from competition in 2020 (on top of his collarbone injury in the crash) meant he missed the whole truncated season.

The closest corollary that comes to mind is Bos, but that was before this game. The next closest, as mentioned, was Moscon, but that was fairly brief, was all in-season (so it didn't really require a decision on his score), and his score that year was quite good so it wasn't an issue. So Groenewegen is a standout case.

I understand the point made by Salvarani about the rules being written specifying dopers, and this isn't a doping violation. But those rules were drawn up that way because that is by far the more common reason for long suspension; the spirit of the rule is that if someone's unsportsmanlike conduct bans them from competition in a way that depresses their score and therefore makes them an attractive option in this game, that is a distasteful thing to consider for some in the context of the game and should be removed from consideration. I'm only going by memory here, but as I recall there were no restrictions in the 2011 edition (I believe I picked Stefan Schumacher for like 79 points or something) and there was a lot of discussion about it. Some folks felt like they morally didn't want to pick a doper but felt like they needed to in order to be more competitive, and the ultimate decision by Hugo was that to reflect that fact that there were plenty of riders to choose so people didn't need to spend a disproportionate amount of time agonizing over one suspended rider, and to curtail drawn-out arguments about the moral choice of a banned rider, that incentive of low score would be taken away by the scoring rule.

In this sense, I think Groenewegen's suspension is entirely within the grounds covered by the spirit of the original rule, so I've decided that he will cost his 2019 score, both for the 2021 and the 2022 games.

I will think about rewording the rules in the future to be more broad (I could frame it in terms of bans of >3 months or lowering a score to a certain percentage of the prior year's score), but I'm inclined to think that since an issue like this has not come up in the previous ten years of this game, the rules don't need a massive overhaul, just a note that I reserve the right to make exceptions in exceptional cases such as this one.
 
Hey, just a heads up - I am taking the next several days to take a vacation at the cabin, I will be without internet until January 5th. I will start processing teams soon after that - I see I have about four submissions already, I haven't gotten back to you but I will after the 5th! There will still be over two weeks until deadline after I get back, so I will be more present after that. Hope everyone has a good new years, see you in 2021.
 
Hey, just a heads up - I am taking the next several days to take a vacation at the cabin, I will be without internet until January 5th. I will start processing teams soon after that - I see I have about four submissions already, I haven't gotten back to you but I will after the 5th! There will still be over two weeks until deadline after I get back, so I will be more present after that. Hope everyone has a good new years, see you in 2021.
Enjoy your vacation. Happy New Years.
 

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