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The 2023 CQ Ranking Manager Thread

Page 60 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
I successfully managed to defend last place. What a lovely rookie season for me, where my crushing victory in the Basque week was the biggest highlight.

Congratulations to BITB for winning the game and a big thank you to Skidmark (and to EITB for stepping in for a short stint) for hosting it. Without it, I wouldn't have had a spreadsheet with more than 100 Basque-ish riders in it. Some of them are juniors, U23 and amateurs who might never get to feature much in this game, or at least not for quite a while, but I would definitely never have taken the time to look at the results of that many Spanish and French races, if it hadn't been for this game. Whether my life has improved by having done so, is of course a completely different matter.
I love that you picked a themed team last-minute and added it to the game - rare teams do miss out on the popular picks, but also lead to some great weeks due to no one having your successful riders. Also your participation gave us one of the all time great team names! Hope to see a Basque team representing in 2024.
 
I'm considering making a team with only Danes for next year. And unlike Samu and his "Basque" - with the random French guy thrown in - Street Boys, I feel like I could actually make a quite successful Danes-only team.
And yes, I know Denmark is a whole country.
Good luck getting all the names in order. I predict that CQ will cause Skidmark hassle by reconfiguring at least six of them in the course of the game.
 
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Now that the season is done, I can update the hall of fame CQ team (the principle is to make the optimal team if every rider from every year had been available). Although, there are only two riders from 2023 that make the cut, there has been a bit of reshuffling that has caused 5 riders to drop out compared to last year. Just to get a sense of how hard it is to make the team here are the riders that have fallen of it:

Rider
Year
Price
Score
BOUHANNI Nacer​
2012​
136​
845​
COQUARD Bryan​
2013​
33​
742​
DE BUYST Jasper​
2017​
50​
710​
YATES Simon​
2018​
858​
2261​
AYUSO PESQUERA Juan​
2022​
178​
1004​

and here are the riders that take their places:

Rider
Year
Price
Score
WIGGINS Bradley​
2011​
376​
1322​
THEUNS Edward​
2015​
227​
1064​
HAYTER Ethan​
2021​
228​
1106​
KUSS Sepp​
2023​
246​
1263​
HEALY Ben​
2023​
167​
1088​

Coquard was the only representative from 2013 which means that 2013 becomes the first year to have no riders feature on the team. De Buyst falling off means that Canola is now the only rider on the team that wasn't picked by at least one person (two in fact since no unique picks feature on the team).

Rider
Year
Cost
Score
% picked
WIGGINS Bradley​
2011​
376​
1322​
23.86%​
COBO ACEBO Juan Jose​
2011​
0​
1048​
39.77%​
KITTEL Marcel​
2011​
60​
1041​
2.27%​
BOONEN Tom​
2012​
502​
2202​
60.32%​
HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis​
2012​
190​
1136​
57.94%​
ROGERS Michael​
2012​
137​
1074​
52.38%​
MOSER Moreno​
2012​
78​
1036​
19.05%​
GERRANS Simon​
2014​
511​
1736​
13.33%​
THEUNS Edward​
2015​
227​
1064​
1.29%​
HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis​
2015​
92​
916​
85.81%​
KITTEL Marcel​
2016​
164​
1198​
91.67%​
VIVIANI Elia​
2017​
275​
1384​
78.63%​
TEUNS Dylan​
2017​
150​
1015​
19.85%​
CANOLA Marco​
2017​
123​
905​
0.00%​
ACKERMANN Pascal​
2018​
134​
1275​
4.65%​
POGACAR Tadej​
2019​
361​
1519​
6.14%​
EVENEPOEL Remco​
2019​
0​
952​
78.07%​
HIGUITA GARCIA Sergio Andres​
2019​
119​
914​
1.75%​
BETTIOL Alberto​
2019​
50​
781​
80.70%​
ALMEIDA Joao Pedro Gonçalves​
2020​
112​
1114​
16.81%​
COLBRELLI Sonny​
2021​
347​
1823​
19.35%​
BERNAL GOMEZ Egan Arley​
2021​
450​
1736​
89.25%​
MOHORIC Matej​
2021​
302​
1310​
5.38%​
VINGEGAARD RASMUSSEN Jonas​
2021​
107​
1254​
9.68%​
CAVENDISH Mark​
2021​
15​
990​
20.43%​
LAPORTE Christophe​
2021​
136​
952​
34.41%​
HAYTER Ethan​
2021​
228​
1106​
35.48%​
EVENEPOEL Remco​
2022​
1325​
3154​
38.46%​
DE LIE Arnaud​
2022​
57​
1439​
19.78%​
MARTINEZ POVEDA Daniel Felipe​
2022​
311​
1278​
36.26%​
HINDLEY Jai​
2022​
137​
1181​
70.33%​
KUSS Sepp​
2023​
246​
1263​
8.74%​
HEALY Ben​
2023​
167​
1088​
3.88%​
Total​
7489​
42206​
34.11%​

The team had a score of 41925 so it only gained about 300 points but at the same time it's hardly surprising that improving on a team that had a 559% return on investment would be tricky. Since this version is slightly cheaper (7489 vs 7500 last year), its score is a whooping 564% of its price.
 
Congratulations to Blues in the Bottle for the dominant win! And big thanks again to skidmark for all the hard work with the game.

Also fun to read the post-game analysis here. All those comparisons and perspectives wouldn't be possible if the budget had been altered at some point, so I'm glad to see that particular discussion having died down in the last few years. I might have my own yearly statistics update up at some point, but quite a lot of it would be repetition from EvansIsTheBest's excellent breakdown.

As for my team this year, I barely managed to scrape into the top 50. I was well aware that omitting Roglic was a huge gamble, but it would have been fun if it paid off (no ill wishes to Roglic of course). My team was relatively solid overall, but I didn't really have any proper blockbuster picks, and as it turned out, there was of course no way to compensate for not having Roglic. I enjoyed seeing my super obscure unique pick Lucas Carstensen (213 points for a cost of 56) turn out pretty well in the end, and Penhoët (591 for 132, picked 14 times) was a good rare pick.

Pre-game I often have a tendency to state my opinions loud and confidently, so I figured I'd hold myself accountable for once! :D

Let's see how some of my predictions fared:

I actually believe picking Roglic is objectively the best strategy, but I just liked my team so much more without him. Giro, Vuelta, Italian classics and a few other races inbetween are more than enough for a normal Roglic to score 2000 points
Yeah... Let's move on.

Bagioli, who I've had for several years, but couldn't fit in this time. Always been a big believer, and will still love it if he does well, but I'm starting to believe that the inconsistency he's shown every year since he was a junior is just how he is.
First year I don't have him, and he makes the optimal team. But it took him until his last race of the season to prove me wrong.

Earle is actually a legitimately great pick I think. Won everywhere he raced last year before injury stopped his season, and the Asian calendar is getting a big buff in terms of categorization of races this year. Tour of Japan, which he won convincingly, is now 2.1 which means 85 extra points.
My unique pick Nathan Earle actually won the buffed up Tour of Japan, but contrary to my calculations his team didn't do any of the Chinese races, so his profit ended up being more modest than I had hoped.

I also did some very extensive consideration about Tesson, but in the end I look at who he beat in his sprints and decided he might not be THAT good.
Dodged a bullet here, but I'd much rather have had Tesson than Bouhanni.

I have had Piccolo in all sorts of Emerging riders CQ games since he graduated from juniors, so it's not like I don't believe he's good. But he got a lot of cheap points last year. Most of them from just decent placings against weak fields. He didn't win once. Massive gamble.
Very happy with this consideration. Never saw him as a good pick, and turned out to be right.

Am I the only one who is not really convinced by Baroncini? Strong rouleur with a good TT, but his impressive U23 results came as a 21-year-old, and I don't see him being sharp enough at one specific thing to do much better than some top 10s in random one-dayers and stage races, maybe the occasional breakaway win like his U23 WC. Don't see a 500+ season here.
With all these sound considerations, how did I end up doing so bad? :tearsofjoy:

I had Ewan last year, and he was very unlucky with a constantly disrupted season. I think he's a much better pick this time, with Lotto's new and very cynical points-driven approach, and also the arrival of Guarnieri, who got Demare a lot of his wins. Ewan being able to do the Aussie summer also helps.
Yeah, this is part of the reason I guess! Ewan has been a bit like skidmark's Grosu. I just can't keep myself from picking him. Hopefully I can resist the temptation for next year!

Another random thought I had: Could the popularity of Ayuso and Roglic mean we'll have another massive end-of-Vuelta week this year? [...] I was imagining something like a Vuelta podium consisting of Roglic, Ayuso and then maybe Haig, Uijtdebroeks, Almeida, Martinez and perhaps even Bernal somewhere in the top 10.
Not too far off with this one! Of course I didn't see the Sepp Kuss win coming, although I seriously considered him for my team. Was thinking he could have more of a 2021 type season with some solid GC placings on the back of his super domestique duties, but he didn't make the cut unfortunately.
 
I'm considering making a team with only Danes for next year. And unlike Samu and his "Basque" - with the random French guy thrown in - Street Boys, I feel like I could actually make a quite successful Danes-only team.
And yes, I know Denmark is a whole country.

I do acknowledge that 1/3 of my team was not Basque, but Nans Peters was not a random pick at all.

I think you should make a team of -sen riders instead, cause that would give you a chance to select riders from different parts of the world. You could even make such a team without any Danish riders at all.
 
I love that you picked a themed team last-minute and added it to the game - rare teams do miss out on the popular picks, but also lead to some great weeks due to no one having your successful riders. Also your participation gave us one of the all time great team names! Hope to see a Basque team representing in 2024.
I definitely have the knowledge to make much more educated guesses regarding which Basque-ish riders might do well next season, since many of this year's picks were 50/50 decisions. Sergio Samitier did improve his score, but it would have resulted in a huge loss if I had picked him instead of Lazkano, for instance, The problem is of course that most of these riders end up riding many of the same races, so predicting who will get the most points can be tricky, so ignorance might actually be a bliss in this case.

Depending on where you draw the line for Basque-ishness, I could have scored about 1200 points more in this edition, so while a victory is obviously out of the question, there's definitely still a possibility to get a better result in the future. If we're only looking at actual Basque riders, then these are the ones I can be most sad about having overlooked:

20222023
OKAMIKA BENGOETXEA Ander
(a small loss, but still a good score compared to other riders)
11394
BERRADE FERNANDEZ Urko73159
BARRENETXEA GOLZARRI Jon41210
AGIRRE EGAÑA Jon28109
DE LA PARTE GONZALEZ Victor15122
BERASATEGI GARMENDIA Xabier072
SORARRAIN AGIRREZABALA Gorka059


Because Gorka Sorarrain wasn't on a Spanish team at the start of the season, and I therefore wasn't aware of his existence, I can't be too disappointed. If I had known of him, I definitely would have picked him due to his past career in basketball.

Of non-Basque riders, I could have had these two among others:

RODRIGUEZ MARTIN Cristian263492
CHRETIEN Charles-Etienne
849

Rodríguez has ridden for both the amateur and the pro Caja Rural teams, plus he's a former winner of the Bizkaiko Itzulia junior race. Apart from having a nice name, Chrétien used to ride for Laboral Kutxa (he even won a couple of amateur races for the team), and he lives in San Sebastián with his girlfriend, soon-to-be Movistar rider Olivia Baril.
 
Skidmark, thank you for putting the game on, over the years it has given me infinite entertainment. Three cheers for you! EitB thanks for generating the spreadsheets and commentary when Skidmark was unavailable.

I cannot believe how well my team has done. There are not enough superlatives in the English language to describe how happy I am. Usually I am pack fodder lurking around bottom half. But this year I am a sprinter and a climber. I whipped the team together choosing riders whom I wanted to root for and had my perception of upside potential. When I heard Roglic was riding the Giro I wrote him in with indelible ink thinking the Giro Vuelta combo would be his best shot at CQ glory. I truly doubted myself when I was the only team with Vergallito.

I have been nervous and afraid to comment all year for fear of jinxing the fellas. During the spring classics I thought I had a pretty good team, but I would crash and burn during the grand tours. The Giro went well; so, I thought the Tour would send me back to 50th place. Yet I survived the Tour. The Vuelta made me as nervous as a cup of coffee, losing two of my five starters did not help. Kuss, Roglic, and Uijtdebroeks pulled me through and secured the deal.

In the end I have no idea how I did this. I picked the team the same way I have always done. My conclusion is that it is better to be lucky than smart.

See you all here next year.

Skidmark you are awesome, thanks again.
 
Evans has put up an all time total scores top twenty, but that doesn't really give a chance for those who have come to the game more recently.

We could consider a top ten of people's average score:
1Boris9817009.0
2Galpedal16761.0
3Vipps15822.0
4Senderos15443.0
5Nakazar15112.0
6Devils_Elbow14943.0
7HoudiniCycling14859.0
8waku_waku14655.0
9Berflamand14505.0
10jencredible14502.0
but the top three there have all only played once, and that was 2021, and they weren't even very well placed that year.

So we could consider a top ten average score of those who have participated at least 4 times (so at least a quarter of the editions)
1skidmark13843.9
2kabete13803.2
3tobydawq13618.6
4SafeBet13502.4
5Squire13478.2
6merengues13443.0
7nuvolablu13380.3
8The Hitch13365.2
9shalgo13319.9
10Nyssinator13315.1


Alternatively, we could give points according to finishing position for those in the top 15 (45-35-30-26-22-20-18-16-14-12-10-8-6-4-2)
1skidmark165
2Squire134
3fauniera104
4Object89
5Hugo Koblet84
6Cykeltyven80
7EvansIsTheBest79
8MADRAZO72
9Ruvu7567
10Wallenquist61


Or perhaps we can even out the different levels of scores by considering the score of each team, each year, as a percentage of the winning score that year:
1Senderos94.5
2rywann92.9
3chinaboy92.7
4Milanello91.6
5freddybobs91.5
6Cykeltyven91.1
7HoudiniCycling91.0
8Reno90.3
9waku_waku89.7
10nordicICE102489.0

But only one of those ten has played more than once, so what if we apply the 25% of editions qualification again?

1skidmark88.4
2Ruvu7588.4
3The Hitch87.8
4fauniera86.5
5tobydawq86.0
6gustienordic85.8
7jeroenk85.6
8Wallenquist85.4
9Squire85.3
10Tomazo85.3

Or similarly, we could take a percentage not of the winner, but of the average score each year, and either include everybody:
1Waterloo Sunrise125.0
2Senderos123.3
3rywann122.6
4Luke Schmid121.6
5Milanello120.9
6Reno119.1
7nvpacchi118.8
8HoudiniCycling118.6
9chinaboy118.2
10Cykeltyven118.1

or we can insist on at least 4 years as a player
1skidmark114.3
2Ruvu75113.9
3The Hitch113.2
4tobydawq111.2
5Squire111.0
6fauniera110.9
7SafeBet110.6
8Hugo Koblet109.9
9MADRAZO109.7
10Wallenquist109.7


So essentially, rankings are either topped by people playing successfully once or twice, and then quitting on a high, or any metric dependent on persistence in the game brings Skidmark to the top.

I notice I have included Tomazo in these stats, but I have a nagging feeling that I have in the past blended the records of Tomazo and a more recent competitor. But who?
 
From his page on CQ ranking it says:
"Nairo QUINTANA tested twice positive for the painkiller Tramadol during the Tour de France 2022, on 8 and 13 July. This is an infringement of the Medical Rules of the UCI and he was therefore disqualified from all stages and the final classification. As an infringement of the Medical Rules is not considered as an Anti-Doping Rule Violation he was not suspended."

He did something wrong but was not banned on a technicality that the substance wasnt on the Wada-list at the time (it is from 2024). However, I would say the above greatly affected his score this year since nobody would/could sign him. That it was the choice of the rider himself to basically sit out the season... is something each and everyone will have to believe or not.

He only did one race, the nationals RR, and finished 3rd behind Chavez and Martinez. Had he found or signed with a team similar to MAL, he would have probably won a bunch of races this year and scored more points.

Making him available for 50 points means he is pretty much on everyones team next year. No impact in the real game, unless you are just one of those 5 teams that just doesnt pick him.

Not making him available for that price but a middle-ground sort of score is just an idea, given the circumstances of it all. Lets say half his 2021 score, which would amount to 379 points.

It gives everyone a choice to pick him or not to pick him. I think that would make the game more fun, but I am not really opposed to him being available for 50 points either. He will just be one of the first names on the team sheet in that case.
 
Last edited:
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What makes these games different from most is that they are based on real life events, with the cost of a rider being sometimes very different from the perception of his/her (yes, the Women's game will be back, but slightly different, next year) ability. Most games are priced on the organiser's valuation of a rider's potential: these are based on the vagaries and randomness of real life.

I think that should be preserved, and therefore I think that Quintana's score should be equally based on history. 50 would be the obvious, straightforward price. The 2022 price of 665 is artificially depressed by sanctions, so if a time lapse in his case is to be applied, a case could be made for his 2021 price of 758. Skidmark indicated (this thread, post #39, page 2) that if anybody had wanted him in 2023 (unlikely, but...) he would have been available for 665, as the removal of results was not a suspension, which is the stated criteria.

But I would be opposed to an artificially created price as mentioned by Salvarani : that is what other games do.

And I bet he will not be the highest scoring rider costing 50 pts or less by this time next year.
 
I don't think Quintana's cost should be altered. The first edition of the women's game saw a lot of riders coming back from injuries, retirements and or/pregnancies which made them available for free or thereabouts. I didn't pick any of the most obvious ones and got severely beaten as a result.
I won't be picking Quintana either, but I'm fully prepared to face a crushing defeat because of it.
 
Now that the season is done, I can update the hall of fame CQ team (the principle is to make the optimal team if every rider from every year had been available). Although, there are only two riders from 2023 that make the cut, there has been a bit of reshuffling that has caused 5 riders to drop out compared to last year. Just to get a sense of how hard it is to make the team here are the riders that have fallen of it:

Rider
Year
Price
Score
BOUHANNI Nacer​
2012​
136​
845​
COQUARD Bryan​
2013​
33​
742​
DE BUYST Jasper​
2017​
50​
710​
YATES Simon​
2018​
858​
2261​
AYUSO PESQUERA Juan​
2022​
178​
1004​

and here are the riders that take their places:

Rider
Year
Price
Score
WIGGINS Bradley​
2011​
376​
1322​
THEUNS Edward​
2015​
227​
1064​
HAYTER Ethan​
2021​
228​
1106​
KUSS Sepp​
2023​
246​
1263​
HEALY Ben​
2023​
167​
1088​

Coquard was the only representative from 2013 which means that 2013 becomes the first year to have no riders feature on the team. De Buyst falling off means that Canola is now the only rider on the team that wasn't picked by at least one person (two in fact since no unique picks feature on the team).

Rider
Year
Cost
Score
% picked
WIGGINS Bradley​
2011​
376​
1322​
23.86%​
COBO ACEBO Juan Jose​
2011​
0​
1048​
39.77%​
KITTEL Marcel​
2011​
60​
1041​
2.27%​
BOONEN Tom​
2012​
502​
2202​
60.32%​
HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis​
2012​
190​
1136​
57.94%​
ROGERS Michael​
2012​
137​
1074​
52.38%​
MOSER Moreno​
2012​
78​
1036​
19.05%​
GERRANS Simon​
2014​
511​
1736​
13.33%​
THEUNS Edward​
2015​
227​
1064​
1.29%​
HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis​
2015​
92​
916​
85.81%​
KITTEL Marcel​
2016​
164​
1198​
91.67%​
VIVIANI Elia​
2017​
275​
1384​
78.63%​
TEUNS Dylan​
2017​
150​
1015​
19.85%​
CANOLA Marco​
2017​
123​
905​
0.00%​
ACKERMANN Pascal​
2018​
134​
1275​
4.65%​
POGACAR Tadej​
2019​
361​
1519​
6.14%​
EVENEPOEL Remco​
2019​
0​
952​
78.07%​
HIGUITA GARCIA Sergio Andres​
2019​
119​
914​
1.75%​
BETTIOL Alberto​
2019​
50​
781​
80.70%​
ALMEIDA Joao Pedro Gonçalves​
2020​
112​
1114​
16.81%​
COLBRELLI Sonny​
2021​
347​
1823​
19.35%​
BERNAL GOMEZ Egan Arley​
2021​
450​
1736​
89.25%​
MOHORIC Matej​
2021​
302​
1310​
5.38%​
VINGEGAARD RASMUSSEN Jonas​
2021​
107​
1254​
9.68%​
CAVENDISH Mark​
2021​
15​
990​
20.43%​
LAPORTE Christophe​
2021​
136​
952​
34.41%​
HAYTER Ethan​
2021​
228​
1106​
35.48%​
EVENEPOEL Remco​
2022​
1325​
3154​
38.46%​
DE LIE Arnaud​
2022​
57​
1439​
19.78%​
MARTINEZ POVEDA Daniel Felipe​
2022​
311​
1278​
36.26%​
HINDLEY Jai​
2022​
137​
1181​
70.33%​
KUSS Sepp​
2023​
246​
1263​
8.74%​
HEALY Ben​
2023​
167​
1088​
3.88%​
Total​
7489​
42206​
34.11%​

The team had a score of 41925 so it only gained about 300 points but at the same time it's hardly surprising that improving on a team that had a 559% return on investment would be tricky. Since this version is slightly cheaper (7489 vs 7500 last year), its score is a whooping 564% of its price.
A bit of a surprise that it is not even more dominated by 2021 scores, and amazed at how many of the best ever picks were so rare, or even missed altogether. Also an interesting illumination on the yo-yo that was Marcel Kittel's career that he appears twice.
 
A bit of a surprise that it is not even more dominated by 2021 scores
I think part of the reason could be that the riders who are capable of 1000+ points seasons are usually doing a full WT calendar, and those guys weren't that affected by the covid cancellations. The conti guys were the ones who really suffered in 2020, and those are often not capable of seasons good enough to make the list. The butchering of the conti calendar was really noticeable for my own 2020 CQ team. That team was unusually conti heavy even for my standards, and I went from being in the top 10 before the lockdown to finishing way, way down the rankings.