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Mar 13, 2009
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Might get some results this time in rather the old sweep it under the carpet MO. What's happened with the Astana transfusion story that broke in Jan/Feb by the way???
 
Aug 4, 2009
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sounds a bit like the aragant French at it again. remember what they used to say if you need a pill you take it.

The UCI are good enough the French just want some limelight.
 
Basically the ALFD is saying they are on to the UCI's game and aren't going to stand by and watch without doing something. Good for them, all they have to do is move into action while the UCI testers are enjoying their early morning coffee breaks presented by The Shack.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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i perfectly agree with the idea of afld sweeping the uci aside in antidoping matters particularly in france.

but, folks, read the release and think through this latest round in the controversy. where are the teeth ?

afld said they will pass information straight to the police.

what information ?

the only muscle the afld has is the results of ad testing.

where and what will afld act upon if they are not allowed to conduct their own unannounced testing ?

they may search medical waste bins but the police can and actually did that better.

afld may have some historical files on certain riders from 2008. but they are hopelessly outdated in 2010.

sorry, i just dont see the beef but a lot of symbolism.

what afld should do is to suddenly appear in the hotels and take riders they suspect for testing.

if a rider refuses on the grounds that the afld does not have the authority, they should flash armstrongs case in his face.

the uci confirmed to bruyneel personally they can test anyone on french soil.

if the uci takes this back, the afld should ask the race organizer or the police to remove that rider from the starting line.

thats how it will bite. not just talking and talking.

edit: another effective action perfectly within aflds authority would be to threaten a rider who refused testing with the ban on racing in france. i bet afld would get their sample.
 
aragant?

brianf7 said:
sounds a bit like the aragant French at it again. remember what they used to say if you need a pill you take it.

The UCI are good enough the French just want some limelight.

You are funny.
A short note first: not being a native English speaker, I had to look for aragant in my English-French dictionnary, couldn't find it! It's not in my Webster either.

You seem to believe that France is like an ultraSoviet country/state where everybody holds the same opinion, well, let me tell you, you are in for a surprise if you ever visit the country (after learning the language of course)! You will find that there are more opinions than people on just about any subject:)
 
The problem is the UCI tests riders in a very predictable fashion. It's like laying a mine field but putting red flags on the mines. Sure, it'll stop a massive full-on-assault. But with a bit of care, no ugly explosions.

Occam says: It's no coincidence the Tour became "clean" the year the UCI moved back in.
 
Feb 2, 2010
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I think maybe a big difference between the UCI and the AFLD is that the AFLD will actually act upon and quite possibly *gasp* sanction a rider for a non-negative controle or illegal method, such as IV equipment use for non-emergency/non-surgical matters during a race. I'm sure many, many big names have tested positive over the years and nothing was done about it by the UCI other than inform the rider to get their siht straight.

UCI's philosophy = move along nothing to see here, the sports clean, cleaner, ect. Want proof? - No positives, ever. Only the little fish because there's no financial incentives in keeping them, why not use them as pawns? To hell with sport, this is a business.

AFLD' philosophy = It doesn't matter if your Astarloza or Armstrong, a positive is a positive and getting those that dope and facilitate doping out of the sport is priority #1 - riders, teams, DS's, Doctors, President's of the UCI, ect....
 
RTMcFadden said:
Occam says: I prove nothing, I only speculate.

Proofs are extremely rare in science, in life, in anywhere except mathematics. If I touch a hot burner, and it hurts, that doesn't prove I shouldn't touch the burner. Maybe I got hit with a very powerful cosmic ray at just that moment.

One sees patterns, one develops a model, one sees whether the model predicts future results. In this case the prediction is that if the French take over the testing of the Tour, it won't be as "clean" as last year, or some of the big names will get "sick" before the start.
 
djconnel said:
Proofs are extremely rare in science, in life, in anywhere except mathematics. If I touch a hot burner, and it hurts, that doesn't prove I shouldn't touch the burner. Maybe I got hit with a very powerful cosmic ray at just that moment.

:):):)
Where did the cosmic ray hit? in the brain? at the actual place that interprets such events as a burn?

Actually, it does not matter much if it's "powerful" (meanic energetic I guess) or not. A slow, stopping proton would have a far greater effect than a relativistic one going through your head.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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So the AFLD snubbed the UCI?
Someone is going to have to explain THAT one to me....

But anyway, the UCI seems to have the testing at Paris-Nice well under control.
Sure, it appears the race will turn out to be 100% clean, but what did you expect?
And has Mr Bordry been spotted along the race course yet?
 
Jul 13, 2009
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python said:
i perfectly agree with the idea of afld sweeping the uci aside in antidoping matters particularly in france.

but, folks, read the release and think through this latest round in the controversy. where are the teeth ?

afld said they will pass information straight to the police.

what information ?

the only muscle the afld has is the results of ad testing.

where and what will afld act upon if they are not allowed to conduct their own unannounced testing ?

they may search medical waste bins but the police can and actually did that better.

afld may have some historical files on certain riders from 2008. but they are hopelessly outdated in 2010.

sorry, i just dont see the beef but a lot of symbolism.

what afld should do is to suddenly appear in the hotels and take riders they suspect for testing.

if a rider refuses on the grounds that the afld does not have the authority, they should flash armstrongs case in his face.

the uci confirmed to bruyneel personally they can test anyone on french soil.

if the uci takes this back, the afld should ask the race organizer or the police to remove that rider from the starting line.

thats how it will bite. not just talking and talking.

edit: another effective action perfectly within aflds authority would be to threaten a rider who refused testing with the ban on racing in france. i bet afld would get their sample.

That's a very good plan, but I'm afraid it won't materialize. The Rats from the Shack would not be too happy with it.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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unsheath said:
Might get some results this time in rather the old sweep it under the carpet MO. What's happened with the Astana transfusion story that broke in Jan/Feb by the way???

people are always grabbing this and wringing it for all it's worth, but they fail to realise nothing happened because the media made it out to be a big deal when it wasn't

the medical waste that was found to have DNA from 7 riders was in the standard medical waste that the teams throw away after probably every stage. it's all checked when they hand it over so there is no way there will be any doping products in it. it wasn't a hidden stash of medical trash.

the only reason this made headlines is that some french reporters wanted to do anything they could to sell some papers
 
Kender said:
people are always grabbing this and wringing it for all it's worth, but they fail to realise nothing happened because the media made it out to be a big deal when it wasn't

the medical waste that was found to have DNA from 7 riders was in the standard medical waste that the teams throw away after probably every stage. it's all checked when they hand it over so there is no way there will be any doping products in it. it wasn't a hidden stash of medical trash.

What's your point?

It never was a doping investigation, and in fact has nothing to do with with doping, rather a violation of the local law.

Kender said:
the only reason this made headlines is that some french reporters wanted to do anything they could to sell some papers

Never heard that one before.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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my point is people are always bringing up that incident in reference to why nothing was done about the doping products they found which of course they didnt any
 
Feb 14, 2010
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First of all, there was only one reporter that would "do anything", Stéphane Mandard of Le Monde. And all he did was file a story about a police investigation. I doubt it was page one, and while the story did get repeated, I kind of doubt Le Monde had a big jump in newspaper sales two days before Christmas. Here's a Google translation of part of the original article:

The noose is tightening around Astana, the team that Alberto Contador won the Tour de France 2009 Lance Armstrong stole the third place for his return to competition. The Paris prosecutor's office told the World, Wednesday, December 23, the Kazakh training had committed a "crime" during the last Great Loop.

These are the first findings of the preliminary inquiry opened by the Deputy Prosecutor of Paris, Dominique Pérard. According to our information, infusion sets belonging to the training the winner of the Tour have been seized by police from the Central Office of the struggle against environmental damage and public health (Oclaesp).

However, a source close to the investigation, "the possession of infusion sets is itself a crime" under the Act of July 3, 2008 on the fight against trafficking in doping products. The infusion is indeed on the list of prohibited methods by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).

The preliminary inquiry, which involved several teams originally laid, now focuses solely on Astana, investigators have not found sufficient evidence for other courses. Moreover infusion kits, they have made other discoveries in the garbage and hotel rooms of the former team of Lance Armstrong. Thus they found syringes and needles of different sizes. The analysis, performed by the Paris laboratory toxicological expertise Toxlab, have so far only revealed the presence of "polypeptides".

http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article...penale-pendant-le-tour-2009_1284426_3242.html
 
Feb 2, 2010
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Kender said:
my point is people are always bringing up that incident in reference to why nothing was done about the doping products they found which of course they didnt any

Seriously man, do you know what your talking about? They found transfusion equipment, that means IV's - which are banned by WADA and illegal to possess in France other than qualified medical professionals. You can't do a transfusion while at the tour de France unless it's a medical emergency or for a surgical procedure go to WADA's website and verify it for yourself. The transfusion equipment also supposedly contained "peptides" and while yes, peptides could mean alot of things, it more likely than not in this case means HGH or IGF-1. Nice try.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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IntheMidwest said:
Seriously man, do you know what your talking about? They found transfusion equipment, that means IV's - which are banned by WADA and illegal to possess in France other than qualified medical professionals. You can't do a transfusion while at the tour de France unless it's a medical emergency or for a surgical procedure go to WADA's website and verify it for yourself. The transfusion equipment also supposedly contained "peptides" and while yes, peptides could mean alot of things, it more likely than not in this case means HGH or IGF-1. Nice try.

Infusion - the passive introduction of a substance (a fluid or drug or electrolyte) into a vein or between tissues (as by gravitational*force).

Transfusion - The introduction of blood or blood*plasma into a vein or artery.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Kender said:
people are always grabbing this and wringing it for all it's worth, but they fail to realise nothing happened because the media made it out to be a big deal when it wasn't

the medical waste that was found to have DNA from 7 riders was in the standard medical waste that the teams throw away after probably every stage. it's all checked when they hand it over so there is no way there will be any doping products in it. it wasn't a hidden stash of medical trash.

the only reason this made headlines is that some french reporters wanted to do anything they could to sell some papers

Not exactly.

It has been reported that the needles were not found in the standard medical waste boxes provided by the Tour but in and around the rooms and hotels of the riders. There was a report submitted by the ALFD observers who detailed not only how the UCI gave Astana preferential treatment but that they had observed medical waste being disposed of in non-official manners during the last week of the Tour.

The reason this is an issue is because there is now an official court case. While it appears you would rather have reporters ignore judicial action against the team of the winner of the Tour de France but most would disagree with you.
 
Feb 2, 2010
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RTMcFadden said:
Infusion - the passive introduction of a substance (a fluid or drug or electrolyte) into a vein or between tissues (as by gravitational*force).

Transfusion - The introduction of blood or blood*plasma into a vein or artery.


Sorry, my mistake, but I do know this:


M2. CHEMICAL AND PHYSICAL MANIPULATION
1. Tampering, or attempting to tamper, in order to alter the integrity and
validity of Samples collected during Doping Controls is prohibited. These
include but are not limited to catheterisation, urine substitution and/or
adulteration (e.g. proteases).
2. Intravenous infusions are prohibited except for those legitimately received in
the course of hospital admissions or clinical investigations
.

--And This--

S2. PEPTIDE HORMONES, GROWTH FACTORS AND RELATED
SUBSTANCES
The following substances and their releasing factors are prohibited:
1. Erythropoiesis-Stimulating Agents [e.g. erythropoietin (EPO),
darbepoetin (dEPO), methoxy polyethylene glycol-epoetin beta
(CERA), hematide];
2. Chorionic Gonadotrophin (CG) and Luteinizing Hormone (LH) in
males;
3. Insulins;
4. Corticotrophins;
The Prohibited List 2010
19 September 2009
4
5. Growth Hormone (GH), Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 (IGF-1),
Mechano Growth Factors (MGFs), Platelet-Derived Growth Factor
(PDGF), Fibroblast Growth Factors (FGFs), Vascular-Endothelial
Growth Factor (VEGF) and Hepatocyte Growth Factor (HGF) as well
as any other growth factor affecting muscle, tendon or ligament protein
synthesis/degradation, vascularisation, energy utilization, regenerative
capacity or fibre type switching;
6. Platelet-derived preparations (e.g. Platelet Rich Plasma, “blood
spinning”) administered by intramuscular route. Other routes of
administration require a declaration of Use in accordance with the
International Standard for Therapeutic Use Exemptions.
and other substances with similar chemical structure or similar biological
effect(s).

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...hibited-list/WADA_Prohibited_List_2010_EN.pdf