The Armitstead doping thread.

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Jul 15, 2016
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Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
TrainTrack said:
If someone is pinged for a whereabouts violation, then there should be a certain period of time - a month? - to determine if it's valid or not. After that, it no longer is a matter for debate, it's a fact.

There is time. There is a process. Please, educate yourself, read the rules, read those with knowledge, before making these observations. This system has been in place for quite some time now.

I don't think you read what I wrote. I'm questioning the rules as they're written - it doesn't seem appropriate that there's an open ended time limit to challenge something like this.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
I think an athlete missing one test is extremely relevant. It shouldn't happen. An athlete should want to clear that missed test up ASAP if there was a legitimate and honest reason for missing the test! A silent phone is not acceptable.

In practice no professional athlete should miss a test. The ADAMS system is a top priority for all athletes on that system.

What are the stats? What are UKAD's numbers for those on one strike and those on two? What are the numbers from other agencies?
 
Re: Re:

TrainTrack said:
fmk_RoI said:
TrainTrack said:
If someone is pinged for a whereabouts violation, then there should be a certain period of time - a month? - to determine if it's valid or not. After that, it no longer is a matter for debate, it's a fact.

There is time. There is a process. Please, educate yourself, read the rules, read those with knowledge, before making these observations. This system has been in place for quite some time now.

I don't think you read what I wrote. I'm questioning the rules as they're written - it doesn't seem appropriate that there's an open ended time limit to challenge something like this.

There is a technicality at play here. There is not an open ended time limit to appeal an individual failure at UKAD, there's a fixed limit. But once it goes to CAS, all doors are re-opened. That's justice.
 
Re:

Brian Butterfield said:
A pro-rider should be up and about the latest 6.00am, doing stretches or something. Even I can haul myself out of bed by 6.30am to drink SKY Instant Marginal Gains Coffee whilst "checking in" with The Clinic Forum...
A pro rider needs to train and sleep for a living. Most of these guys try to get at least 8 hours if not 10.

But, down to brass tacks, I'll contrast Lizzie to the Clinic's favourite whipping dog:
Chris Froome (exernal) said:
I did appeal to try and explain the circumstances to the authorities but at the end of the day I take full responsibility for that case. I should have been more proactive in letting the hotel know this was a possibility that I could be tested. I’ve certainly learned my lesson there. I’ve stayed in hotels all over the world and I’ve been tested all over the world without any issues at all. Unfortunately I just didn’t see this one coming but it’s opened my eyes and I’m definitely going to be more pro-active in the future. It’s always the athlete’s responsibility to make sure he or she is available for testing.
Lizzie Armitstead (exernal) said:
This issue was one of administration and was the result of UKAD not following proper procedure nor fully attempting to make contact with me despite clear details being provided under ‘whereabouts’. I think that there should be clearer guidelines for those administrating tests and would like to work with UKAD going forward to explore how this can be better addressed in the future so no other athlete is put in this position.
Yeah, what riders say isn't worth much. But it isn't meaningless. Owning up to your mistakes is important, IMHO.

Really disappointed today. I opened twitter today and didn't even make the connection, I though INRNG had gone a little tone-deaf with a pun. Then I clicked the link and thought he/she was bang on.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
ontheroad said:
It appears as though the intention was to try and keep this one under the carpet.

Please. Please. RTFM. It's in UKAD's rules. 8.4.2

But I wasn't referring to UKAD, rather the athlete and the team around her. She would have been hoping this story did not reach the public domain. The withdrawal from recent races and offering up illness as a reason for same would support this theory.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
TrainTrack said:
Remember, this was the first test that she missed.

Do you have a source for that? Yes it was the first of the tio that triggered UKAD action but I've yet to see any mention of how many other times there's been a problem with her weherabouts.

We know for certain that, as of 5th Oct-15 she had missed two tests stretching back to 5th-April 14 as she wasn't pinged for three missed tests at that time.

Add the June-16 missed test in and thats 3 tests missed over a 26 month period.

Its difficult to make any sense of this without knowing how many tests is typical over that timeframe and how many people are walking the tightrope generally. How easy/difficult is it to miss a test by mistake? Some insight here would be useful from someone who actually knows.

EDIT - additionally, would it be common to expect testers hanging around at a race venue to also do a few non-race tests too? i.e. could she reasonably expect to be tested the day before a race at the race hotel. Would turning up "glowing" be considered risky? Especially knowing you've got two strikes in the book already.
 
Re: Re:

ontheroad said:
But I wasn't referring to UKAD, rather the athlete and the team around her. She would have been hoping this story did not reach the public domain. The withdrawal from recent races and offering up illness as a reason for same would support this theory.

But the problem here is WADA's fault. They made this rule. We can expect (some) athletes to keep it under the carpet (Tom Danielson, to his credit, didn't) but if we want them all to be transparent we need to enshrine that in the rules.
 
Re: Re:

simoni said:
We know for certain that, as of 5th Oct-15 she had missed two tests stretching back to 5th-April 14 as she wasn't pinged for three missed tests at that time.

Add the June-16 missed test in and thats 3 tests missed over a 26 month period.

So how many tests did she miss in 2013? 2012? 2011? Etc?
 
Re: Re:

simoni said:
Its difficult to make any sense of this without knowing how many tests is typical over that timeframe and how many people are walking the tightrope generally. How easy/difficult is it to miss a test by mistake? Some insight here would be useful from someone who actually knows.

We know the UKAD numbers for whereabouts errors.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
simoni said:
We know for certain that, as of 5th Oct-15 she had missed two tests stretching back to 5th-April 14 as she wasn't pinged for three missed tests at that time.

Add the June-16 missed test in and thats 3 tests missed over a 26 month period.

So how many tests did she miss in 2013? 2012? 2011? Etc?

We don't know. I would like to! I was just putting together what we DO know at present.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
Benotti69 said:
I think an athlete missing one test is extremely relevant. It shouldn't happen. An athlete should want to clear that missed test up ASAP if there was a legitimate and honest reason for missing the test! A silent phone is not acceptable.

In practice no professional athlete should miss a test. The ADAMS system is a top priority for all athletes on that system.

What are the stats? What are UKAD's numbers for those on one strike and those on two? What are the numbers from other agencies?


Ross Tucker
‏@Scienceofsport

So thanks to @ben_rumsby, we know that 36 UKAD registered athletes missed 1 test, 6 missed two. Also, wonder how many tests LA had?
 
Re: Re:

simoni said:
fmk_RoI said:
simoni said:
We know for certain that, as of 5th Oct-15 she had missed two tests stretching back to 5th-April 14 as she wasn't pinged for three missed tests at that time.

Add the June-16 missed test in and thats 3 tests missed over a 26 month period.

So how many tests did she miss in 2013? 2012? 2011? Etc?

We don't know. I would like to! I was just putting together what we DO know at present.

But you said it was her first missed test, as if her inexperience was significant.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
simoni said:
Its difficult to make any sense of this without knowing how many tests is typical over that timeframe and how many people are walking the tightrope generally. How easy/difficult is it to miss a test by mistake? Some insight here would be useful from someone who actually knows.

We know the UKAD numbers for whereabouts errors.

That would be interesting - do you have any links to this. Some searching on my part has come up with nothing.

What I'm trying to get to is how suspcious is it to be missing tests? How often do people get to two missed tests? How much is going on that we don't hear about? How much of an exception is this and how cynical should we be?
 
Also number of tests
Fiscal Year 15-16 UKAD 7771 total test, 7101 successful tests. So 670 not sucessful (8.6%).

Not successful isn't necessary a strike. Tester could have been held up, the athlete can change their info in an approved manner before the tester gets there etc. (theri window is up to the moment their hour starts. So you can imagine UKAD saying to a tester go here tomorrow morning test so and so. That athlete changes plans and updates ADAMS at 10 pm. leading to a not successful test)
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
simoni said:
fmk_RoI said:
simoni said:
We know for certain that, as of 5th Oct-15 she had missed two tests stretching back to 5th-April 14 as she wasn't pinged for three missed tests at that time.

Add the June-16 missed test in and thats 3 tests missed over a 26 month period.

So how many tests did she miss in 2013? 2012? 2011? Etc?

We don't know. I would like to! I was just putting together what we DO know at present.

But you said it was her first missed test, as if her inexperience was significant.

No, no, I was just saying that on the basis of what we do know we can say with confidence that she'd missed three tests in 26 months. I've no idea if this is good, bad or indifferent.

Prior to April14 we currently know nothing. There could be a whole stack of them from back then for all we know.
 
Re: Re:

simoni said:
That would be interesting - do you have any links to this. Some searching on my part has come up with nothing.

What I'm trying to get to is how suspcious is it to be missing tests? How often do people get to two missed tests? How much is going on that we don't hear about? How much of an exception is this and how cynical should we be?

It's been posted above. Ben Rumsby Tweeted it earlier today. As with the Rasmussen case, LA is not the isolated, impossible to conceive of incident some choose to present it as.
 
The reaction of her fellow riders is interesting. It seems a great deal more hostile than a top level male pro could expect from his colleagues and rivals should CAS clear one to ride. Indicative of a different culture in the women's peloton?
 
I've just read through the WADA rules, and am justifying it by giving you all a brief summary.
The key documents are as follows:
ISTI: https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/WADA-2015-ISTI-Final-EN.pdf
Testing guidlines:https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada_guidelines_effective_testing_2014_v1.0_en.pdf
Results guidelines: https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/wada_guidelines_results_management_hearings_decisions_2014_v1.0_en.pdf

ISTI is the International Standard for Testing and Investigations and has the actual rules, then the the Testing guidelines and Results guidelines give details on how the process should be run.

For ISTI Annex I is the relevant portion, starting on page 84.

An athlete gets 2 chances to respond before the missed test becomes official, however I.5.5 makes it clear that when an athlete hits three missed tests they can challenge any of the previous tests, even if they were not challenged at the time. Further, should Armistead have a forth missed test, she can challenge test 2 or 3, even though she didn't challenge them previously.

Moving on to challenging a missed test, what's striking to me is how much flexibility the DCO (Doping Control Officer) has in making their own judgement on what to do, with "the only universal guideline being common sense" (9.2.1 of the Testing guidelines). The key thing they have to prove, is that they made a "reasonable attempt" to locate the athlete. The DCO is not meant to inform anyone of who they are, until they see the athlete however, and I'm quoting the below because I suspect it's what Armistead relied on:

"In certain circumstances, a degree of advance notice may simply be unavoidable. For example, an Athlete may live or train at a location where access is controlled by security personnel who will not permit access to anyone without first speaking to the Athlete or (for example) a team official. This in itself is neither improper nor suspicious, but the DCO should be especially vigilant in such cases of any other circumstances which may be suspicious (such as a long delay between the security guard contacting the Athlete or team official and the DCO being given access to the Athlete). In this case, the DCO should provide a full report of such suspicious circumstances and should consider requiring the Athlete to give a second Sample."

The other point to note, on the phone call is the following:

"If the Athlete does not answer, the DCO may telephone the Athlete to advise him/her of the attempt in the closing five minutes of the 60-minute period. Such a call is not mandatory however, nor should it be used to invite the Athlete for Testing, but rather to potentially further validate that the Athlete is not present."

Annex K (page 100) of the Results guideline document then provides more detail on what Armistead had to prove during the appeal, which is probably the following:

"The DCO did what was reasonable in the circumstances, given the nature of the specified location, to try to locate the Athlete during the 60-minute time slot, short of giving the Athlete advance notice of the test. That the Athlete’s failure to be available for Testing at the specified location during the specified 60-minute time slot was at least negligent. In accordance with ISTI Article I.4.3, negligence is presumed on showing that the Athlete was not where he/she said they would be; and to rebut the presumption of negligence, the Athlete has to show that no negligent behavior on his/her part caused or contributed to him/her (i) being unavailable for Testing at such location during such time slot;"

The key point here is probably whether what the DCO did was reasonable, and it's impossible to know without more detail, however given the first quote above, I suspect that the defence that they didn't identify themselves to the hotel staff should be enough.

The guidance does give a few pointers which might point against Armistead (from 2.4.3 of the the results guidelines):
1) It isn't an acceptable excuse to not hear a doorbell ring. By the same virtue, I would assume that not hearing your phone ring isn't an acceptable excuse.
2) The guidelines state that if the location is a sports-complex, then the athlete should specify where in the complex they can be found. By the same virtue, should an athlete have to confirm which room they are in, if they are at a hotel?

Finally, there is no guidance on what a DCO should do if an athlete is staying at a hotel. That strikes me as a massive oversight, which needs to be corrected, given the inevitable challenges that exist in trying to reach an athlete without giving them advance notification.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
William H said:
TrainTrack said:
Kind of exposes another problem with ADAMS / whereabouts system.

If someone is pinged for a whereabouts violation, then there should be a certain period of time - a month? - to determine if it's valid or not. After that, it no longer is a matter for debate, it's a fact.

That way, Armitage's 3rd (chronological) whereabouts failure would have been the final nail.

In practice, wouldn't that just mean you have to spend a lot more on lawyers for stuff that might never be relevant?

I think an athlete missing one test is extremely relevant. It shouldn't happen. An athlete should want to clear that missed test up ASAP if there was a legitimate and honest reason for missing the test! A silent phone is not acceptable.

In practice no professional athlete should miss a test. The ADAMS system is a top priority for all athletes on that system.
This is a great point. I missed one OOC test during my ban (I was in testing pool for the entire 9 years...). It was because of a family member's medical emergency, during which I was with them in the hospital and inaccessible during my window.

I think I submitted by explanation and documentation for the filing failure within 24 hours or so, and it was cleared up within another 36hrs or so.

Totally not credible how Armistead has conducted herself here.
 
Everyone's Favorite Sunday Times reporter is getting in on this:

I wonder what Christine Ohuruogu thinks about Lizzie Armitstead missing 3 tests and NOT being banned? Same rule for everyone, right?

You might have more sympathy for Lizzie Armitstead if the disputed test had been third of three, not first!
 
Jul 20, 2015
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Not going to lie unless my alarm is on, my phone is off at 6am in the morning no matter where i am