The Article: WSJ - reopened!

[dbrower]

There would have to be metabolites in the bloodstream, otherwise how do they get transported to the kidneys and end up in the urine. As I said before in this thread, I don't think Landis is lying in this case. I also don't think the lab tests were wrong. Likely Landis took the testosterone unwittingly or accidentally through a transfusion. We might never know.

The main point is that Landis's claim he did not take testosterone is used to discredit him. I think there's ample room to believe his claim and still explain the presence of testosterone in his sample.

I understand the blood reinfused has been spun to remove plasma, where both raw T and metabolites would be. It wouldn't be in the useful red blood cells. So I don't know that this theory holds up. This doesn't rule out that he's lying, that he was inadvertantly spiked, or that the lab consistently screwed the pooch.

-dB

 

[scribe]

Hmmm, yes, I suppose that makes sense. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this.

I assumed a team like Phonak would have an organized doping program, since smaller teams like Kelme did, but I guess it's also possible (if less likely) that team-wide doping programs weren't that widespread at the time (or now) and that teams left that kind of thing up to the individual riders. It's easy to make baseless assumptions about such shady matters. Maybe people like Joe Papp have some insider info about this?

There are previously bagged riders on Phonak that prove they had some level of doping going on. If they were about running clean, they would have told Landis to ****s off when he brought up the idea of getting one going. Likely, they never were clean.

 

[redtreviso]

That's fine. But anyone who feels they've benefitted from the existence of the livestrong phenomenon won't rightfully care one bit that it was started by an egomaniac or as a cover up or any of that. They've got more important things to worry about than if some guy cheated in a bike race or is a con man or likes hookers and blow.

We like to look at the cycling angle and the fairness in sports angle and all that, but there are plenty of other people out there would be happy to accept that cheating in Le Tour gave Lance the fame that allowed him to meet personally with some head of state that resulted in increased funding for cancer research or treatment options that ended up doing some good for a lot of people in their situation. And they just won't care about the cycling side of it at all.

Face it. Even if it's a con, Lance does put in a lot of work on it. He probably spends more time talking about cancer and going to meetings and visiting patients and all that crap than he does on the bike training. It just seems too elaborate to be all about the fame/money/wins. There are much easier scams to run!

Heads of State... George W Bush and Karl Rove laughed in Lance's face when he asked for cancer research money..Then Lance laughed with them that he got his picture taken and that was the most important issue..Lance for Lance

 

[hrotha]

There are previously bagged riders on Phonak that prove they had some level of doping going on. If they were about running clean, they would have told Landis to ****s off when he brought up the idea of getting one going. Likely, they never were clean.

Who said anything about them being clean? I'm talking about having a centralized, systematic, organized, team-wide doping program as opposed to all riders having their individual programs set up more or less by themselves, with full knowledge of the DS and team doctors.

 

[Cobblestones]

I understand the blood reinfused has been spun to remove plasma, where both raw T and metabolites would be. It wouldn't be in the useful red blood cells. So I don't know that this theory holds up. This doesn't rule out that he's lying, that he was inadvertantly spiked, or that the lab consistently screwed the pooch.

-dB

He never said he had a centrifuge. Did he spin his blood or not? Would be an interesting question. If yes, you're right and this theory is shot down.

 

[dbrower]

You really trust the construction of these so-called doping diaries? Let's see, all he has to do is tear out the first few years and say it started with Bruyneel when he got off that helicopter.

The reports say they are all there, and it's easy enough to date paper and ink, so if they do turn up, say, in a court case, they will be easy enough to authenticate. Lim has on several occasions said that Landis had extensive diaries dating way, way back, so missing things should be easily noticed.

So, assuming they turn up, and get "decoded", we'll have a better idea. Until then, we're free to speculate, and I'm sure we will. Why at this point he'd be telling stories that contradict his own contemporaneous records that would come out later is puzzling to contemplate.

-dB

 

[dbrower]

He never said he had a centrifuge. Did he spin his blood or not? Would be an interesting question.

Good point, worth pursuing. Does anyone know if a centrifuge is typically part of doing SYSMEX analysis? Would a centrifuge be out of place for someone who had a SYSMEX?

-dB

 

[dbrower]

I assumed a team like Phonak would have an organized doping program, since smaller teams like Kelme did, but I guess it's also possible (if less likely) that team-wide doping programs weren't that widespread at the time (or now) and that teams left that kind of thing up to the individual riders. It's easy to make baseless assumptions about such shady matters. Maybe people like Joe Papp have some insider info about this?

Phonak probably did, through 2004 -- but the whole management/support crew got replaced after the Hamilton fiasco as part of keeping the ProTour license. when Landis came in 2005, there was probably nothing left of the previous program, and he seems to have ended up replicating what he'd seen at Postal That's what the story seems to be saying. He's also saying that the ownership was aware of what he was doing, and that's been denied.

-dB

 

[BroDeal]

I understand the blood reinfused has been spun to remove plasma, where both raw T and metabolites would be. It wouldn't be in the useful red blood cells. So I don't know that this theory holds up. This doesn't rule out that he's lying, that he was inadvertantly spiked, or that the lab consistently screwed the pooch.

I think even with whole blood the theory may not work. Such a small percentage of the total is taken out that there would have to be a massive amount in the total blood, and the info we have indicates that riders seem to use small dosages that can clear their systems in a few hours.

Also, in the SI interview Flandis said that he barely used any testosterone that whole year. He stopped using it when he found the dosage of HGH that worked better for him than testosterone.

 

[Publicus]

You really trust the construction of these so-called doping diaries? Let's see, all he has to do is tear out the first few years and say it started with Bruyneel when he got off that helicopter.

If there are significant gaps, then it may compromise the evidentiary value of the training journals and/or diaries. Nothing to be gained by destroying portions of the journals/diaries.

 

[TreeFiddy]

Joe Papp, What's the deal with your battle? I thought I read a blurb on here a few months ago that you were to be sentenced in June 2010. What's the update on that?

 

[scribe]

If there are significant gaps, then it may compromise the evidentiary value of the training journals and/or diaries. Nothing to be gained by destroying portions of the journals/diaries.

Depends on the construction and presentation. If it is electronic like most individuals would do living in this century, it is easy to delete and reconstruct as one sees fit.

 

[Cobblestones]

Good point, worth pursuing. Does anyone know if a centrifuge is typically part of doing SYSMEX analysis? Would a centrifuge be out of place for someone who had a SYSMEX?

-dB

Careful, a centrifuge for analytical purposes is different from the real beast which has to be able to spin much larger volumes to be useful.

ETA: and BroDeal, Landis didn't have a T/E ratio all that much above threshold. So the amount of exogenous T was not that much. Roughly in line with the transfusion theory. But it also could point to other accidental application. What can be ruled out is a T patch. That, I think, would have produced a much larger signal.

 

[Publicus]

Depends on the construction and presentation. If it is electronic like most individuals would do living in this century, it is easy to delete and reconstruct as one sees fit.

Short answer, no it's not. I'll stand by my original point.

 

[joe_papp]

You BETTER have someone watch the mini-fridge!

Exactly - those guys saying you don't need to watch a freezer in Euroland obviously haven't been there and experienced the crappy wiring in some of the houses... Spot on Joe, this is definitely a questionable point of contention.

Yeah, those pretenders are not worth responding to on their own merits, but then I think about the U23 Moldavian rider who was renting a room in what was basically a Shack in Brescia that hadn't been renovated since the war, and after a particularly wet and chilly early-spring training ride in '02, he came home to his hovel and whilst hanging his socks from the rafters in his room so they would dry, he accidentally touched a piece of uninsulated wiring and was electrocuted instantly. Now can you imagine if he had touched that wire but not died and instead just shorted-out the circuit that controlled the breaker connected to the line running to the mini-fridge in the room in which the Kazakhs were living? We're talking six perfectly good bags of blood could have been ruined, because the Kazakhs weren't even in Italy, but had left their fluids there for use during the Baby Giro later that year. No one would have known that the mini-fridge was off-line until they got back from training camp and holy smokes - Igor would have wished he was dead after taking the kicking that the "Little Vino's" would have dished out.

And THAT is why you're goddamn right you need someone watching your mini-fridge/freezer if you're blood-doping in continental Europe.

 

[scribe]

Short answer, no it's not. I'll stand by my original point.

What is really FANTASTIC, is that someone would keep a journal of doping activity. Serve up the evidence on a silver platter if you're caught.

 

[joe_papp]

There would have to be metabolites in the bloodstream, otherwise how do they get transported to the kidneys and end up in the urine. As I said before in this thread, I don't think Landis is lying in this case. I also don't think the lab tests were wrong. Likely Landis took the testosterone unwittingly or accidentally through a transfusion. We might never know.

The main point is that Landis's claim he did not take testosterone is used to discredit him. I think there's ample room to believe his claim and still explain the presence of testosterone in his sample.

Please no one twist what I was saying, which was that there are plausible explanations to justify why Floyd would go ahead and mount a defense to the doping charge - the predominant theme being he didn't knowingly ingest testosterone but might have inadvertently contaminated his own body with it, or been sabotaged, or he could just be lying.

 

[joe_papp]

I think even with whole blood the theory may not work. Such a small percentage of the total is taken out that there would have to be a massive amount in the total blood, and the info we have indicates that riders seem to use small dosages that can clear their systems in a few hours.

I'm not a scientist. My academic training is in history and political science.

However, last week in conversation with the director of science (research) for a national anti-doping agency, this theory was suggested to me and the speaker explained how he could determine with reasonable accuracy whether or not Landis accidentally contaminated his Tour fluids with traces of testosterone by reinfusing blood that had been extracted earlier in the season when he was doping with anabolics. I don't pretend to understand every little scientific detail, but when the director of science (research) of an anti-doping agency tells me how he would investigate a problem like that, I defer to his expertise.

 

[Anonymous]

Please no one twist what I was saying, which was that there are plausible explanations to justify why Floyd would go ahead and mount a defense to the doping charge - the predominant theme being he didn't knowingly ingest testosterone but might have inadvertently contaminated his own body with it, or been sabotaged, or he could just be lying.

i say what i said months ago. He didnt use testosterone but did succesfully blood dope with blood that had artificial testosterone in it. So technically he wasnt lying when he said he didnt use testosterone, but he would have been lying if he said he didnt dope.

Who cares anyway, hes been tried, hes been banned, this isnt about him. (well it is, but it isnt)

 

[Publicus]

What is really FANTASTIC, is that someone would keep a journal of doping activity. Serve up the evidence on a silver platter if you're caught.

I don't know the contents, but I think he kept training journals and a diary. Both since he was a teenager. So the latter should detail certain memorable events in his life. The funny thing is if he was good about keeping his diary and he noted these events there at the time (i.e., contemporaneously), then game over from an evidentiary standpoint. That would be all the corroboration that was needed. Hard to impeach a contemporaneous record. Very hard.

 

[joe_papp]

Lim

I'm surprised you guys aren't piling on top of Lim more. The guy is revealed to be a lying, unethical scumbag, just like the rest of us, after he'd been hired-away to Radio Shack for dubious reasons, and aside from mocking him for getting totally faced during the ToC and clamming up like a ...<insert metaphor of choice>...when asked a question that would have revealed how deeply involved in doping he was, and yet he's not raked perpetually over the coals.

This is why The Clinic needs a FLandis Affair/Landisgate sub-forum...so that people can start threads on subtle topics like Lim, rather than wading through 105 freaking pages of a single thread.

 

[Y the H8]

Sensationalism. Oh how the WSJ has fallen.

 

[dbrower]

I'm surprised you guys aren't piling on top of Lim more. The guy is revealed to be a lying, unethical scumbag, just like the rest of us

You mean he's not just a disillusioned idealist? Oh, to have my dreams shattered.

BTW, Joe, what is up with the sentencing?

-dB

 

[thehog]

I think its over.

Landis gave it his best shot and it was never his main objective but the article caused merely a dint in Team Armstrong. A scratch. Nothing.

No one cares anymore. They don't understand. They don't want to understand.

Broken down buses, taping over smoke arms and hotel room transfusions are fascinating to the likes of myself but the Gen Pub prefer to hear of 7 time winners saving the world and making comebacks to beat the young ones.

It comes down to that everyone thought Landis was lying when he said he didn't dope and now everyone thinks he lying when he said he did dope. Context. Everyone thinks he did dope but lying about everyone else doping. How can you convince the world that Lance snorts coke, bangs strippers, teaches the ins and outs of doping to younger riders when all they know is Livestrong.

None the less Floyd is in a better place now. Seeking therapy has obviously helped. (Note to Tyler to do the same) The guy has had a hell of a ride. He did what he was told, he followed the script, when the grenade went off he jumped it to protect everyone and the system and for what?

The choice he had? Yes I doped and stage 17 was the first and only time. I lost time and made a bad mistake trying to get the time back. Then what? That would have been a lie as well. So protect all and say I never doped. He stood firm, told the world I didn't dope, Lance didn't dope, I saw nothing.

Hold firm.

Then.

Lose father in law.
Lose the case.
Lose to CAS.
Lose your own and other peoples money.
Lose wife.
Lose house.
Lose job.
Lose credibility.
Lose respect.
Lose self respect.

Then.

Suspension ends.
Time to ride again?

Watch as the man who showed and taught you how to dope make a comeback, make money, makes lots of money, gain popularity, gain notoriety, loved by all.

Denied the chance to ride again. Do his job. After all he protected the peloton.

What choice was left? He had to save his own soul. He would have wound up very sick or dead if he didn't.

Both men wrote books which were based on lies, both doped, both won Tour de France.

At the end of the day the two of them are not that far apart.

But its over.


Respect to Vaughters who tried to help. But there are many who could speak that won't. They don't want to be called milk cartons. Speak!

 

[stephens]

I don't know the contents, but I think he kept training journals and a diary. Both since he was a teenager. So the latter should detail certain memorable events in his life. The funny thing is if he was good about keeping his diary and he noted these events there at the time (i.e., contemporaneously), then game over from an evidentiary standpoint. That would be all the corroboration that was needed. Hard to impeach a contemporaneous record. Very hard.

He can't possibly have a contemporary diary with this info in it. If he did, he wouldn't have claimed that Lance tested positive for EPO at the Tour de Suisse and then bribed the UCI to cover it up in a year that Lance didn't even enter the race. The other weird thing about that EPO-positive-then-uci-coverup claim is that it supposedly happened around the same time that Landis says in this new WSJ article that Lance told him riders "used to use epo but not anymore". Unless "used to" means only a few months, then Landis' timeline is all mixed up.

Not saying the truth isn't in there somewhere. Just saying that there wouldn't be so many odd timelines if he actually had diaries to look back at.