The Article: WSJ - reopened!

[Epicycle]

Careful, a centrifuge for analytical purposes is different from the real beast which has to be able to spin much larger volumes to be useful.

ETA: and BroDeal, Landis didn't have a T/E ratio all that much above threshold. So the amount of exogenous T was not that much. Roughly in line with the transfusion theory. But it also could point to other accidental application. What can be ruled out is a T patch. That, I think, would have produced a much larger signal.

His T/E was 11/1 at the end of the next day. Plus he tested positive after 4 more stages. I think he's either lying or Freddy added some gel to his rubdown throughout the Tour. He hasn't detailed exactly what he was doing so we don't know how many different times he got blood. We don't even know if he was fully aware of what exactly he was getting.

 

[elizab]

Haven't read all these posts.
One of the three is NOT Frankie.

 

[Publicus]

He can't possibly have a contemporary diary with this info in it. If he did, he wouldn't have claimed that Lance tested positive for EPO at the Tour de Suisse and then bribed the UCI to cover it up in a year that Lance didn't even enter the race. The other weird thing about that EPO-positive-then-uci-coverup claim is that it supposedly happened around the same time that Landis says in this new WSJ article that Lance told him riders "used to use epo but not anymore". Unless "used to" means only a few months, then Landis' timeline is all mixed up.

Not saying the truth isn't in there somewhere. Just saying that there wouldn't be so many odd timelines if he actually had diaries to look back at.

I think you should stop following the Armstrong read of the emails and re-read ... Nevermind. Landis never said the positive test happened in 2002. He said Armstrong was telling him the story in 2002. By 2002 the UCI had been using the EPO test for over a year, so that is why Landis referred to EPO use as a past event--it was based on what Armstrong was telling him.

I have no idea what is or is not in the journals/diaries. But to the extent it contains a contemporaneous account of events, the credibility defense is out the window.

 

[BroDeal]

He can't possibly have a contemporary diary with this info in it. If he did, he wouldn't have claimed that Lance tested positive for EPO at the Tour de Suisse and then bribed the UCI to cover it up in a year that Lance didn't even enter the race.

You might want to work on your reading comprehension skills. FLandis said that in 2002 Armstrong told him that he tested positive at the TdS the year that EPO testing started, which is 2001, a year that Armstrong did ride the TdS.

 

[Kennf1]

Haven't read all these posts.
One of the three is NOT Frankie.

Thanks for the info. Interesting. Now I'm really curious.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Haven't read all these posts. One of the three is NOT Frankie.

We pretty much entirely ruled him out several pages ago here. But thank you for the clarification.

 

[luckyboy]

Thanks for the info. Interesting. Now I'm really curious.

Frankie wasn't riding for USPS by the time FLandis was, I don't think.

 

[Kennf1]

Frankie wasn't riding for USPS by the time FLandis was, I don't think.

True, I forgot that was a qualifier. I guess when I saw the Gerlach quote I just dismissed the 3-rider reference as stuff we've heard before.

 

[BroDeal]

An interesting thing about the WSJ article is what was left out. It is a more detailed version of Landis' e-mail, but there is a lot of juicy stuff that was not included. WSJ probably only included facts that they could corroborate, so that bodes well that those facts will be publicly confirmed (eventually).

 

[Kennf1]

An interesting thing about the WSJ article is what was left out. It is a more detailed version of Landis' e-mail, but there there is a lot of juicy stuff that was not included. WSJ probably only included facts that they could corroborate, so that bodes well for those facts to be publicly confirmed (eventually).

Well, we also have Landis's curious tweet today about more shoes that can be dropped (actually "fake" Floyd Landis, which some believe is actually Floyd Landis).

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

True BroDeal. One of the factors of quality journalism is that they will employ strict standards before making quotes or assertions. The WSJ is one of the most prestigious newspapers in the United States, and thus runs multiple fact checks, and requires multiple sources before publishing stories as implied facts. Something in court documents may likely be considered true, but a notary may not. When they don't reach the standard set, the wording is changed in their writing. They'll use terms like 'sources allude, but others insist not', containing the info, but leaving us to draw our own conclusions. If there is no corroboration they won't post anything.

Journalism gets undercut by this though when actual tabloids or cheap newspapers get one source, and report it as true and "breaking the story" whether it's factual or verified or not. That's why there's a huge difference of integrity between the WSJ and National Enquirer for example, even though some people call them all "sensationalist".

Frankie wasn't riding for USPS by the time FLandis was, I don't think.

Frankie left in 2000, Floyd joined in 2002. Also keep in mind if you read Lance to Landis that Frankie was never that privy to some of the inner most workings at USPS, he didn't go to the altitude training meetings with Ferrari for example. It's all in the book. Besty can correct me if I'm wrong as I'm going from memory here, but I think I got it correct.

 

[scribe]

Frankie wasn't riding for USPS by the time FLandis was, I don't think.

I believe the article specifically qualifies a team member under LA's leadership, whether FL was there or not.

 

[Kennf1]

I believe the article specifically qualifies a team member under LA's leadership, whether FL was there or not.

You are correct. The quote:

"Three other former U.S. Postal riders told the Journal in interviews that there was doping on the team during the time Mr. Armstrong was its lead rider, and one of them admitted that he himself had doped. Several other riders said they had never observed such activity during their time with the team."

 

[menlo_guy]

I just finished reading the WSJ article and I think there is a lot of truth in it. Regardless of how credible Lance or Floyd are, there are sentences like the following:

Three other former U.S. Postal riders told the Journal in interviews that there was doping on the team during the time Mr. Armstrong was its lead rider, and one of them admitted that he himself had doped.

There are plenty of people who think Floyd and the WSJ article are full of lies. But if a person doesn't want to believe something, then they won't. Some people refuse to believe Elvis is dead. Some people think humans never landed on the moon. Some people think global warming is a hoax. I once believed Marion Jones never cheated.

Lance Armstrong is a nice guy. I enjoy reading his updates on Twitter and seeing some of his videos on the livestrong.com website. He seems like a cool guy to hang out with. But if in fact he cheated, he has to own up to it. And there's just too much coming out now that makes it look like he did.

Some other thoughts, if the article is true, I'm suprised by Johan Bruyneel and George Hincapie. Two nice guys, but did they really ... you know. I read Johan's book "We Might as Well Win" and loved it. If Johan participated in this "stuff", boy has my opinion of him changed.

 

[goober]

An interesting thing about the WSJ article is what was left out. It is a more detailed version of Landis' e-mail, but there is a lot of juicy stuff that was not included. WSJ probably only included facts that they could corroborate, so that bodes well that those facts will be publicly confirmed (eventually).

You truly believe that? What juicy stuff was not included?

 

[goober]

I just finished reading the WSJ article and I think there is a lot of truth in it. Regardless of how credible Lance or Floyd are, there are sentences like the following:

Three other former U.S. Postal riders told the Journal in interviews that there was doping on the team during the time Mr. Armstrong was its lead rider, and one of them admitted that he himself had doped.

There are plenty of people who think Floyd and the WSJ article are full of lies. But if a person doesn't want to believe something, then they won't. Some people refuse to believe Elvis is dead. Some people think humans never landed on the moon. Some people think global warming is a hoax. I once believed Marion Jones never cheated.

Lance Armstrong is a nice guy. I enjoy reading his updates on Twitter and seeing some of his videos on the livestrong.com website. He seems like a cool guy to hang out with. But if in fact he cheated, he has to own up to it. And there's just too much coming out now that makes it look like he did.

Some other thoughts, if the article is true, I'm suprised by Johan Bruyneel and George Hincapie. Two nice guys, but did they really ... you know. I read Johan's book "We Might as Well Win" and loved it. If Johan participated in this "stuff", boy has my opinion of him changed.

I know George personally and just can't believe it. Guess I might not know him that well...

 

[sartain]

I just finished reading the WSJ article and I think there is a lot of truth in it. Regardless of how credible Lance or Floyd are, there are sentences like the following:

Three other former U.S. Postal riders told the Journal in interviews that there was doping on the team during the time Mr. Armstrong was its lead rider, and one of them admitted that he himself had doped.

There are plenty of people who think Floyd and the WSJ article are full of lies. But if a person doesn't want to believe something, then they won't. Some people refuse to believe Elvis is dead. Some people think humans never landed on the moon. Some people think global warming is a hoax. I once believed Marion Jones never cheated.

Lance Armstrong is a nice guy. I enjoy reading his updates on Twitter and seeing some of his videos on the livestrong.com website. He seems like a cool guy to hang out with. But if in fact he cheated, he has to own up to it. And there's just too much coming out now that makes it look like he did.

Some other thoughts, if the article is true, I'm suprised by Johan Bruyneel and George Hincapie. Two nice guys, but did they really ... you know. I read Johan's book "We Might as Well Win" and loved it. If Johan participated in this "stuff", boy has my opinion of him changed.

How would you know if Lance and JB are "nice guys" . . . have you spent any amount of time with them to make such as statement? Meyer Lansky seemed like a nice guy to some of his neighbors when he retired to MB. People don't hire people and organizations like Mark McKinnon @ Public Strategies, Inc. because they have nothing better to do with their money.

Sartain

 

[Oldman]

How would you know if Lance and JB are "nice guys" . . . have you spent any amount of time with them to make such as statement? Meyer Lansky seemed like a nice guy to some of his neighbors when he retired to MB. People don't hire people and organizations like Mark McKinnon @ Public Strategies, Inc. because they have nothing better to do with their money.

Sartain

I'd like to take your nice Lansky reference to note that Al Capone did time for tax fraud, not alcohol distribution. "Mr. Bruyhneel: what did you do with the funds from the sale of Trek sponsor product and did you use interstate/wire connections to transact the sales?"

 

[soulor]

Uncomfortable for whom?

Armstrong seemed particularly aggressive and it was uncomfortable to watch (for me at least). I think Macur can look after herself but it looks to me that he is beginning to realise the mainstream media are no longer as easy to manipulate.

 

[whizzkid]

How would you know if Lance and JB are "nice guys" . . .

Sartain

And of course you know that they're not...

 

[Cloxxki]

And of course you know that they're not...

They seem nice until they quit acting nice.

In stead of showing surprise and disappointment, that Landis would fabricate such stories, after all they've done for him, they chose to be agressive.

Fighting until the last minute to keep up their armor.
And at the same time trying to create via parallel channels a sense of peace among the public, that all this fuzz about doping doesn't matter, it's about the riders out there giving it their all. Right? Lance always was very forgiving to cheaters.

I wish Landis had put less emphasis on Armstrong in his allegations, to make them come across even more sincere. But, the message stays the same, and he needs to cash in, as he'll never be allowed to even win a carnival race, unless things really change in cycling.

 

[roadfreak44]

the tomb of the eternal freezer

You're silly. do you and your colleagues get paid to front for Lance or is it a volunteer position?

Apologies to luckyboy, but you watch the freezer to make sure that it continues functioning properly and maintains the necessary temperature range for storing blood that is intended for Lance Armstrong to reinfuse during the Tour de France when he blood dopes. Were a crappy euro-fuse to blow, or wiring short, or the BOSCH appliance just stop working, FLandis would have been there to rescue the blood and ensure that it wasn't rendered unusable.

Not sure why you thought that would be an effective point of contention...

Not Sure? I guess its because I have this annoying habit of being logical about contradictory and or illogical information which Landis seems to be a virtual fountain of. So there was a 24 hour guard on lances freezer? LA didnt ever sleep but stayed awake at night "watching the freezer?"
How exactly does one "watch a freezer?' wil this elevate into an olympic sport? So the crappy bosch appliance poops to bed and Floyd "rescues the blood." Does he run down to the neighborhood convenience store with it and say excuse me , Gotta use your cooler for a few hours while the repairman comes to repair the crappy bosch freezer?" Seems to me if you ahd some3one on freezer watch they wopuld rundimentary repair skills in case it actually broke down? sorry dude this is all too laughable...thats at best...

Now that would be silly nearly as silly as believing that soemeone "watches the freezer". If you were to be absolutely certain that the blood was so and so degrees you would have to open the door of the freezer to continually monitor the thermometer. of course opening the door would change the "Exact temperature" needed...Landis' words not mine. Call me silly but that scenario makes ZERO sense...On the day that landis alleges the team was on their backs getting drip bags of blood the temperature in france was 95 degrees fahrenheit...that my friends is HOT...yet the blood was stored in a
false bottom cooler stored at EXACTLY how many degrees?
and the business about" Mr Armstrong says he doesnt use EPO anymore" when Landis FIRST MET HIM ,then "He gave me six syringes of EPO at his apartment" or he tested for epo at the tour de suisse...which was the WRONG YEAR!how much of this SILLY nonsense has to be explained?
Floyd is a person who changes the story to suit his maniacal needs and or mood..
end of story...I want my fifty bucks back as well
yeah he sucker punched me too...anything for a buck eh Floyd?
silly me...i believed the ***...
apparently some still do...
sorry I upset you ...GREG

 

[hrotha]

Errr... It's just to make sure if electricity is cut off for some reason someone will be there to take care of the blood. I'd also expect him to consume all food that would go bad if not properly refrigerated. It's not about having to keep it at an exact temperature (the fridge, if functioning, will keep it within the desired range without supervision). Blood won't go wrong if it's exposed to room temperature for a minute, you know.

Actually I think the refrigerated food analogy might help you understand.

 

[scribe]

You truly believe that? What juicy stuff was not included?

That'll come out in some book that is only printed in an obscure language like kazakh. Then we'll have to listen to race radio's references to it here

 

[Anonymous]

Not Sure? I guess its because I have this annoying habit of being logical about contradictory and or illogical information which Landis seems to be a virtual fountain of. So there was a 24 hour guard on lances freezer? LA didnt ever sleep but stayed awake at night "watching the freezer?"
How exactly does one "watch a freezer?' wil this elevate into an olympic sport? So the crappy bosch appliance poops to bed and Floyd "rescues the blood." Does he run down to the neighborhood convenience store with it and say excuse me , Gotta use your cooler for a few hours while the repairman comes to repair the crappy bosch freezer?" Seems to me if you ahd some3one on freezer watch they wopuld rundimentary repair skills in case it actually broke down? sorry dude this is all too laughable...thats at best...

Now that would be silly nearly as silly as believing that soemeone "watches the freezer". If you were to be absolutely certain that the blood was so and so degrees you would have to open the door of the freezer to continually monitor the thermometer. of course opening the door would change the "Exact temperature" needed...Landis' words not mine. Call me silly but that scenario makes ZERO sense...On the day that landis alleges the team was on their backs getting drip bags of blood the temperature in france was 95 degrees fahrenheit...that my friends is HOT...yet the blood was stored in a
false bottom cooler stored at EXACTLY how many degrees?
and the business about" Mr Armstrong says he doesnt use EPO anymore" when Landis FIRST MET HIM ,then "He gave me six syringes of EPO at his apartment" or he tested for epo at the tour de suisse...which was the WRONG YEAR!how much of this SILLY nonsense has to be explained?
Floyd is a person who changes the story to suit his maniacal needs and or mood..
end of story...I want my fifty bucks back as well
yeah he sucker punched me too...anything for a buck eh Floyd?
silly me...i believed the ***...
apparently some still do...
sorry I upset you ...GREG

Funny, you guys believed him when he said he didn't dope, but now don't believe him when he admits to something that makes him a liar during that time...only now he is a liar too. He was a liar about not doping and he is a liar about doping. He lives in this parallel universe where there is no truth I guess? Anyway, anyone stupid enough to have sent in money to the FFF is not someone who's judgment should be considered sound under any circumstances. Dang.