The Article: WSJ - reopened!

[Cobblestones]

Ha. Tell that to Enron.

People went to jail for it (eventually). Also, Andersen Consulting broke up over that. So, definitely a no-no. You have to keep proper books.

And thanks for your reply on testosterone. I personally believe Floyd on this point, but as you said, he probably took it unwittingly somehow (either with something else or through a blood bag). I don't think the lab screwed up. The isotope ratio test is pretty clear cut.

 

[Publicus]

Maybe not. If they were paranoid not to talk for fear of bugs while transfusing then they were paranoid enough to cover their financial tracks. Records have a way of disappearing over time, especially after a business has been shut down for several years. If lots of business was done in cash then that would complicate matters a lot.

Not sure how they do that (cover their financial tracks) without getting themselves into deeper trouble (money laundering). Tax records have to be kept for a fixed period of time for various reasons. And presumably the entities records were audited. Now I know accountants could knowingly be a part of the fraud, but as your broaden the level of involvement you increase the risk of exposure/detection.

 

[Anonymous]

Ha. Tell that to Enron.

Enron's accounting was proper.

It was in fact very detailed, and provided a very clear picture of what was done, when and how.

The confusion with Enron did not come from the accounting, it came from extraordinarily complex instruments and partnerships that were cloudy - however, they were properly accounted for.

I was there through the pull-apart.

 

[Anonymous]

People went to jail for it (eventually). Also, Andersen Consulting broke up over that. So, definitely a no-no. You have to keep proper books.

And thanks for your reply on testosterone. I personally believe Floyd on this point, but as you said, he probably took it unwittingly somehow (either with something else or through a blood bag). I don't think the lab screwed up. The isotope ratio test is pretty clear cut.

Untrue.

Andersen Consulting is now a publicly traded company called Accenture.

The public accounting firm - Arthur Andersen LLP - ceased to exist as a partnership as a result of the Enron failure.

Most of the offices and staff were absorbed by other members of what is now, the big 4 ( KPMG, Ernst & Young, Deloitte and Price Waterhouse Coopers).

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not familiar with the financial side at all, but wouldn't the sale of gifted bikes have to show up in their books somewhere? What about straightforward sales tax for starters? Also, shouldn't it be counted as income? Tailwind is a for-profit company I presume, so all accounting has to be proper.

On a small scale it would be easy. Bike disappears, perhaps reported as destroyed in a crash. An associate sells the bike and passes cash back to someone in the organization. All sorts of stuff could be sold this way. Consumables like tires, chains, food, etc. would be very good choices. There are a thousand ways to do small time embezzlement.

Half of the 120 bikes disappering would be a problem. You could easily leave no records, but there is the huge issue of being unable to explain what happened to half the bikes if someone should ever investigate.

 

[joe_papp]

Enron's accounting was proper.

It was in fact very detailed, and provided a very clear picture of what was done, when and how.

The confusion with Enron did not come from the accounting, it came from extraordinarily complex instruments and partnerships that were cloudy - however, they were properly accounted for.

I was there through the pull-apart.

Okkkkk...

Would you substitute the name of some company that was revealed to have had improper accounting then?

Also, to the previous poster, in the US at least, the federal government's involvement (in Landisgate) is not so much b/c Lance doped and needs to be punished, but rather, because other much more serious crimes (not that doping is a crime in USA, per se) may have been committed in order to facilitating the doping that was required for Lance to fraudulently win seven Tours de France.

 

[Cobblestones]

On a small scale it would be easy. Bike disappears, perhaps reported as destroyed in a crash. An associate sells the bike and passes cash back to someone in the organization. All sorts of stuff could be sold this way. Consumables like tires, chains, food, etc. would be very good choices. There are a thousand ways to do small time embezzlement.

Half of the 120 bikes disappering would be a problem. You could easily leave no records, but there is the huge issue of being unable to explain what happened to half the bikes if someone should ever investigate.

And that might just have changed according to the WSJ article.

And -myra- I'm sorry but it is a bike forum. Technical errors when discussing accounting might happen, such as getting the name of the auditor slightly wrong and and calling books 'cooked' instead of ... innovative accounting practices? How do you call Enron's books anyway?

 

[Escarabajo]

Thanks for the link!

Not much new for those of us that regularly read "The Clinic", but I think this will be quite an eye opener for the general public. A lot of people are aware of doping in cycling, but not aware of a first hand account of exactly what goes on and how.

As far as excluding riders implicated in this, I agree with Cobblestones that riders have been excluded for less. I seem to remember that the ASO at one time stated that any rider implicated or accused of riding would be disinvited. Surely this qualifies! However, I kind of want Armstrong to ride so I can (a) see him fail miserably and (b) see him get arrested by the French police. Hopefully Lemond knows of something that is not public in this regard.

Ahhhh... it's July, and once again the smell of drama is in the air!

+1.

Remember Manzano's allegations? The director said that even I a portion of what he said was correct it would be too much. Landis is almost the same with more solid information than Manzano's. This would lead me to think that if they let all the implicated names ride they are kind of accepting that there is doping in its Tour and they are willing to accept it.

 

[BroDeal]

And that might just have changed according to the WSJ article.

It is a problem of stupidity and greed. It is one thing to embezzle five, ten, or fifteen percent. Fifty percent is whole new ballgame.

 

[amp300]

Are you wondering if teams sell their equipment to generate off-the-books cash, or if teams claim false robbery to generate cash by both selling the supposedly stolen bikes and collecting insurance?

Well I didn't think about the insurance fraud, but that is a great point. My thought was more in line with your first suggestion. Sell the bikes, and claim "stolen". These dark alley deals are cash only, and could in turn be used so other things can be bought and not traced.

Teams absolutely sell their riders' bikes out from under them, though usually not for as nefarious purposes as funding a doping program. Often times the money goes straight into the pocket(s) of the team's manager (or owner) and his cronies.

I have actually heard about this before.

In the case of my former Italian team, however, the team's owner and principle director, Simone Biasci, forced several riders to return bicycles that had been promised to them (and in one instance specified as belonging to the rider at the end of the season, and written-in to a rider's contract (!!!)) - so that he could sell them himself and pocket the cash. This money was also used to cover the cost of some doping products.

Biasci and several others are under investigation in Italy now for this and other financial crimes resulting from their being dicks in the running of the team. One scam they had going was to generate fake invoices and receipts for sponsors to allow them to sometimes double or triple the amount recorded on the books as having gone to the team. This allowed them to launder money that they wished to avoid paying taxes on, and brought in additional money for the team.

That is crazy man, jut crazy and dirty. Always appreciate your posts man.

 

[bridgeman]

Such a lovely sport.

 

[Benotti69]

as an aside to Uniballer's infidelity

when men take steroids it affects their sex drive, giving them an enormous desire. A canadian journalist did the illegal stuff to get toned with creatine and roids to build a body no too dissimilar to Uniballer, but a bit more muscular upper body. He was having to masturbate 3 times a day due to the roids...

Uniballer and Tiger's use of muscle enhancement explains their dog like thinking that anything in a skirt is a bïtcħ in heat.....

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I guess. Though Frankie has already publicly admitted doping, so there is no reason for granting anonymity..

True. One other thing that seems to slip through the cracks here, though I think most of you know this already - Frankie actually left USPS nearly two years before Floyd even got there. While of course investigators can and will investigate all of USPS team as they see fit, the places they are most likely to concentrate are ones indicated by Floyd that can be corroborated by others, and Frankie doesn't as easily fit into that puzzle as many others.

 

[Nearly]

I doubt it, they would have named him if so, Frankie doesnt really have anything to hide regarding his doping history. Im sure betsy will confirm if he spoke to the wsj.

Im guessing three former postal riders (obviously), 2 in this years tour, 1 more possibly retired is the one thats admitted doping so far as he is assumedly beyond reproach now.

We know its not Hincapie or Levi, which leaves a pretty damn short list. Might even be two garmin riders, JV and JB/LA have clearly fallen out. For lance to block JV on twitter smacks of childish desperation.

I suspect there is a reasonable chance that the two implicated former teammates who are said, in the 28 June NYT article, to fear retribution at the TdF are two of Garmin's Dave Zabriskie, Christian Vande Velde and/or even Matt White (the latter is a DS but the article does not talk about current riders and any repercussions could easily be wreaked against the Argyllers). None of Zabriskie, Vande Velde or White is mentioned in today's WSJ article and Vaughters is referred to in a positive way (tried to persuade Floyd to come clean after the 2006 TdF) - a protected species perhaps? If any of these were known to have admitted team Postal doping in some way where would that leave Garmin, its boss and its announced principles if the others did not say 'me too' so a team decision here ...? Remember roommates Zabel and Alldag.

As you point out there aren't too many other candidates.

 

[bianchigirl]

We know where one of the Trek bikes is - Darach McQuaid is selling it on ebay.

So it's not about the bike - but the bikes given to cronies and more bribery and corruption in the McQuaid clan

 

[thehog]

Armstrong responds with the cancer card:

Lastly, I have too much work to do during this, my final Tour, and then after my retirement in my continued fight against cancer, to add any attention to this predictable pre-Tour sensationalism."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/03/2943989.htm?site=sport&section=more

 

[thehog]

Armstrong responds with the cancer card:

Lastly, I have too much work to do during this, my final Tour, and then after my retirement in my continued fight against cancer, to add any attention to this predictable pre-Tour sensationalism."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/03/2943989.htm?site=sport&section=more

 

[hektoren]

Wild idea: Could Landis be right, claiming that he had taken testosterone before TdF in ´06, but not during the race? Could the blood that he transfused on the day of rest have been the source for the testosterone?

 

[badboygolf16v]

Armstrong responds with the cancer card

The last refuge of a scoundrel.

He can't play the patriotism card against Landis and the WSJ..

 

[Cloxxki]

The WSJ article was obviously written in collaboration with the person who must have helped Landis with his emails.
Landis does not try to portray himself as a victim, he was looking for the doping assistence he knew he'd be required to accept for the place in the TdF team, and to be of any use at al, considering his poor climbing compared to Armstrong.

It's hard to find anything in the article that comes across as a lie. Interesting is the claim that Bruyneel/Armstrong were the ones to facilitate Landis' first-ever doping offence. Perhaps his race results back up at least the timing of his claim. I for one was not aware of Landis until he dragged Lance over the mountains.

As an athlete, I appreciate that Landis still has a bike, and goes out for a ride, even if he has no race to train for. He appears to just loves to ride, and took his opportunities to make a living doing it.

Having been part of the cycling business, and an avid bike rider/racer at that, I've come in contact with various bike sales by teams. Usually after a race season, though.
Some teams, have strict policies though, former team bikes are to never be sold to anyone, for any amount. They are allowed to be ridden by non-team members, but not as their possession. A friend has former protour bike on loan that way.
When Lotto was selling the Litespeeds, I didn't manage to obtain the bike I wanted (a tall Blade).
I always thought such sales were to balance a poor income season, or just make the DS richer. Didn't consider doping to be so expensive. Eye-opening how the WSJ article hints to the logisics of it all.

I cannot imagine any man, after such a dramatic struggle with the truth, to start lying only when going public about it. Did other caught pro's come up with false accusations to shorten their bans? No, they gave up much less than Landis, but stuff that dedicated investicators could do something with.

Also, Landis not wanting to take away from Armstrong's mental talents on the bike, supports him speaking the truth.
In (broken) friendships, the truth can't even surprise or hurt someone. The truth is always real, and never obsolete. Especially if the other partly denounces the opposite of this truth on a daily basis, at the cost of millions of devoted fans.

My roommate is a fan girl. So ****ed at Landis. She knows he can't be lying, but she won't accept any bad word on Armstrong.

A bit dubious is the emphasis on Armstrong though, a bit too purposely media-hyping. If Leipheimer joined Landis' doping logistics, and Hincapy also took transfusions, they are level with Armstrong.
In the the truth, race results or fame are irrelevant. Unless you lose to everyone, anyway. But the moment you're not last in a race, doping becomes a crime to me. If Hincapie joined in and choses to deny, that's great for him. I'll suspend my being a Hincapie fan, but expent my being a Landis fan, for newer, better reasons.

 

[hrotha]

The last refuge of a scoundrel.

He can't play the patriotism card against Landis and the WSJ..

Some have tried, either in this thread or in a similar one.
"Lemond has never done anything to help US cycling" etc etc

 

[Cloxxki]

Landis is also being portrayed as a bit of an investigator. Calling up a team sponsor himself to find out why he can't get a proper bike that will see him to the finish of a big race.
This guy clearly has a mind of his own. This makes his cheating an act of evil on one hand, but his coming out about it all, again comes across as sincere.

If the guy is so inquisitive about team policies, and observative about how other riders prepare, who dares to bet he didn't record as much as he could, for later use? Blackmail is a crime with a low threshold. His emails to try and get a ride on Shack were even labeled as such by Armstrong and Bruyneel?
What if he just sits on the little evidence he did care to gather? Like a video log for instance, from his USPS times.
I tend to believe that he doesn't hve proof of Armstrong or any other rider, I suppose) having committed doping, but he may well have taken pictures of double wall coolers with blood bags, for instance.

 

[BroDeal]

Wild idea: Could Landis be right, claiming that he had taken testosterone before TdF in ´06, but not during the race? Could the blood that he transfused on the day of rest have been the source for the testosterone?

First, if he transfused half a liter and his total blood volume is usually 5 liters then he put in 10% of the blood he had when he was using testosterone. Whatever was in his transfused blood would be diluted to 10% of its original value. He would have had to have been using a mega dose of testosterone.

Second, testing of FLandis' other TdF samples showed testosterone use throughout the Tour.

Some possibilities:

1) He could be lying about not using testosterone.
2) Something else he was taking contained a substance that tripped the testorone test.
3) Unbenownst to him, someone else was giving him testosterone.
4) The UCI set him up to damage the ASO, which the UCI was feuding with at the time.
5) The carbon isotope test is flawed and can produce false positives.

Testing positive while not knowingly taking testosterone does explain why he fought so hard and expended so much.

 

[rolfrae]

Testing positive while no knowingly taking testosterone does explain why he fought so hard and expended so much.

Like Hamilton, too. He knew he'd blood doped but just not with someone else's blood. That's why he fought so hard and denied.

Part of the fighting was probably also driven by the knowledge that Lance had been doing (and still was with his new 'luitenants') all they had been doing and never once been caught.

 

[Cloxxki]

It sure smells dirty at .ch .org and .us

Makes loads of sence. Someone knew of Landis' testosterone use, and "helped" his sample to exhibit "the truth" more clearly. Lots of spculation, but it adds up.

Surely in such a diluted peloton, Landis could win it on blood transfusion and epo alone?
And everyone who ever bonked, knwos that the next you can be super. Nothing super-human let alone super-blood doping (as opposed to super-human) about that solo performance in the mountains in 2006.