The Banesto Train in the mountains

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May 24, 2011
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VeloCity said:
I don't recall Jose Luis Arrieta ever winning the Queen Stage of the Tour. ;)
Like MI signing Jeff Bernard and Rue, USPS did the same stuff. Didn't USPS also have a very big budget to simply buy the best grand tour riders and make them rich riding for L. Heras, Azevedo (5th in Giro 01, 6th in TDF 02) , Beltran, Rubiera (10th and 8th in Giro 97, 98( some others as well)...is it such a huge shock they could ride in a dominating way as new team? Not really. They were very good climbers before L signed them. The idea he drugged them all is ridiculous
 
Jul 4, 2009
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GJB123 said:
I guess it shouldn't be a problem then showing a video link of the "Banesto train" demolishing all GC contenders in mountain stage by relentlessly pounding away for 2 or mountains with let's say 4 or 5 domestiques.

In other words, those numbers prove diddly sh*t in comparsion to the MO of the USPS train.

Regards
GJ
...I have to admit that holding your position in the face of over-whelming evidence to the contary is quite charming....just remember that in Bugs Bunny's Magnus Opus Hare We Go ( Bugs Discovers America ) that King Ferdinand was not the hero...

Cheers

blutto
 
Jul 4, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Melchor Mauri only was on one of Indurain's successful Banesto teams in 94 so not sure where you are getting that one.

On the 91 Banesto team, Delgado was a former Tour winner regarded as one of the best climbers of his generation and Bernard a Tour podium finisher who regularly won mountain TTs. Rondon was widely regarded as one of the best mountain domestiques of his generation. That was before the EPO generation arrived so I dont think seeing those guys finishing high up in the Tour or riding strongly in the mountains as surprising.

Yes they had a very strong team but the comparison with early US Postal and guys like Hamilton, Livingston, Landis, Hincapie, Vandedvelde who had little climbing pedigree in comparison to the Banesto guys mentioned is stretching it.

Later on guys like Heras, Rubiera, Beltran, Azevedo had climbing pedigree before they arrived at Postal so it wasnt exactly surprising to see then drilling it on mountain stages. I think the issue is more with guys like Hincapie, Andreu, Joachim being on the front in the mountains.

In summary, was there a Banesto train, yes a handful of guys with high pedigree but it was limited in comparison to the Postal train where even the lower level domestiques were frequently to be seen on the front in the mountains.
....ooops...made boooboo...he rode for Reynolds prior to a stint with Once with whom he won the Vuelta then went back to the Banesto group in 94...I mistakenly assumed he continued with Echevarri(sp) and then joined Once later...

Cheers

blutto
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
Like MI signing Jeff Bernard and Rue, USPS did the same stuff. Didn't USPS also have a very big budget to simply buy the best grand tour riders and make them rich riding for L. Heras, Azevedo (5th in Giro 01, 6th in TDF 02) , Beltran, Rubiera (10th and 8th in Giro 97, 98( some others as well)...is it such a huge shock they could ride in a dominating way as new team? Not really. They were very good climbers before L signed them. The idea he drugged them all is ridiculous
Of course - top teams always buy up the best talent they can afford. But USPS' budget wasn't any bigger than any of the other teams, and in fact iirc it was actually quite a bit smaller than the other "big" teams like T-Mob and Mapei etc. And certainly doesn't explain how one team can become dominant over equally rich and even richer teams over 7 years.

Over that same period, T-Mob had Ullrich, Bolts, Kloden, Julich, Vino, Sevilla, Guerini, Botero, Nardello, Jaksche, Totschnig, Elli. Every bit as impressive a cast as Heras, Popovych, Beltran, Rubiera, Azevedo, Landis, Hamilton, if not more so, don't you think?
 
blutto said:
...I have to admit that holding your position in the face of over-whelming evidence to the contary is quite charming....just remember that in Bugs Bunny's Magnus Opus Hare We Go ( Bugs Discovers America ) that King Ferdinand was not the hero...

Cheers

blutto
Show me the video, Elmer!

Regards
GJ
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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VeloCity said:
Over that same period, T-Mob had Ullrich, Bolts, Kloden, Julich, Vino, Sevilla, Guerini, Botero, Nardello, Jaksche, Totschnig, Elli. Every bit as impressive a cast as Heras, Popovych, Beltran, Rubiera, Azevedo, Landis, Hamilton, if not more so, don't you think?
Impressive list of individuals, yes.
But as a TEAM they sucked.
Disjointed. Backstabbing. Multiple goals. Unfocused. UnCommunicative.
Leadership hello, where are you. Hello?
Did not have Musketeer Spirit.
Nice Team Bus though.

edit....their best Team effort was when they pulled Lance to the base of Alpe d'Huez lol.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Polish said:
Impressive list of individuals, yes.
But as a TEAM they sucked.
Disjointed. Backstabbing. Multiple goals. Unfocused. UnCommunicative.
Leadership hello, where are you. Hello?
Did not have Musketeer Spirit.
Nice Team Bus though.

edit....there best Team effort was when they pulled Lance to the base of Alpe d'Huez lol.
Yes, but why weren't there consistently 3-4-5 T-Mob riders in the final group on the climbs, like USPS? You'd think that would be even more likely if they were riding as individuals and not destroying themselves for one guy. ;)
 
May 24, 2011
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VeloCity said:
Of course - top teams always buy up the best talent they can afford. But USPS' budget wasn't any bigger than any of the other teams, and in fact iirc it was actually quite a bit smaller than the other "big" teams like T-Mob and Mapei etc. And certainly doesn't explain how one team can become dominant over equally rich and even richer teams over 7 years.

Over that same period, T-Mob had Ullrich, Bolts, Kloden, Julich, Vino, Sevilla, Guerini, Botero, Nardello, Jaksche, Totschnig, Elli. Every bit as impressive a cast as Heras, Popovych, Beltran, Rubiera, Azevedo, Landis, Hamilton, if not more so, don't you think?
You're on a misson bro. USPS budget wasn't any bigger than T mobile? Can you prove that , or maybe Bruyneel was just good at his job?

and stop being vague about the terms of debate and maybe then I will debate with you more
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
You're on a misson bro. USPS budget wasn't any bigger than T mobile? Can you prove that , or maybe Bruyneel was just good at his job?

and stop being vague about the terms of debate and maybe then I will debate with you more
Here is a list of theteam budgets for the 2007 season.

AG2R $9.52 million.
AGRITUBEL $5 million
ASTANA $16.32
BARLOWORLD $4.7 million
BOUYGUES TELECOM $9.52 million
CAISSE D`EPARGNE $9.52 million
COFIDIS $13.6 million
CREDIT AGRICOLE $9.52 million
CSC $9.52 million
DISCOVERY CHANNEL $12.25 million
EUSKALTEL – EUSKADI $8.16 million
RANCAISE DES JEUX $9.52 million
GEROLSTEINER $9.52 million
LAMPRE – FONDITAL $7.9 million
LIQUIGAS $7.9 million
MILRAM $9.52 million
PREDICTOR – LOTTO $7.92 million
QUICK STEP – INNERGETIC $11.8 million
RABOBANK $13.2 million
SAUNIER DUVAL – PRODIR $6.8 million
T-MOBILE $20.4 million

Even Astana, Cofidis and Rabo had larger budgets than Disco.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
You're on a misson bro. USPS budget wasn't any bigger than T mobile? Can you prove that , or maybe Bruyneel was just good at his job?

and stop being vague about the terms of debate and maybe then I will debate with you more
There's not really anything to debate - you started this thread by claiming the Banesto train was equivalent to the USPS. It wasn't. You claimed that USPS had a larger budget than other teams and could therefore afford to buy better riders. They didn't have a bigger budget and they didn't have better riders. What's left?

And it's pretty evident that I'm not the one on a mission.
 
May 21, 2010
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I didn't read that into his original post. He was merely pointing out that US Postal was not the originator of the mountain train concept. And let's be fair. Using US Postal as the benchmark for what a mountain train is - is a little like saying Everest is the only true mountain because all other mountains are not as tall.
 
I just came upon this thread. The Banesto train? Uh? Did I miss something? What is that supposed to be, Armand De Las Cuevas going bonkers on a descent? Aging Delgado getting dropped before the stage even started?
 
May 24, 2011
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VeloCity said:
There's not really anything to debate - you started this thread by claiming the Banesto train was equivalent to the USPS. It wasn't. You claimed that USPS had a larger budget than other teams and could therefore afford to buy better riders. They didn't have a bigger budget and they didn't have better riders. What's left?

And it's pretty evident that I'm not the one on a mission.

They picked well, Bruyneel did. Anyway, continue on with the get Lance for doping but ignore Indurain..
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
They picked well, Bruyneel did. Anyway, continue on with the get Lance for doping but ignore Indurain..
Is it OK if they "Get lance" for Tax evasion, Witness tampering, trafficking, and money laundering?

Hurry, Doug Miller is waiting for your input
 
Jun 12, 2011
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Exroadman24902 said:
They picked well, Bruyneel did. Anyway, continue on with the get Lance for doping but ignore Indurain..
We're all still awaiting the apparently many,many incidences of Banesto towing Big Mig up the hills,blowing all others to their doom along the way.Feel free to enlighten us,as we're all obviously looking in the wrong places.
 
May 24, 2011
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Race Radio said:
Is it OK if they "Get lance" for Tax evasion, Witness tampering, trafficking, and money laundering?

Hurry, Doug Miller is waiting for your input
let's see it proven in court. For the moment I think 7 grand tour wins by Indurain are as legit as 7 grand tour wins by LA. You don't.
 
May 24, 2011
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dbrmuz said:
We're all still awaiting the apparently many,many incidences of Banesto towing Big Mig up the hills,blowing all others to their doom along the way.Feel free to enlighten us,as we're all obviously looking in the wrong places.
why should I waste my time when you can go and do that research yourself? I know what I saw. The fact is that LA took Indurain's template and improved on it
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
let's see it proven in court. For the moment I think 7 grand tour wins by Indurain are as legit as 7 grand tour wins by LA. You don't.
I don't? When have I ever said that? I have written about Indurain and Banesto using an organized, team wide doping program many times.

Is court the only place this can be proven? After all your obsession Indurain never tested positive.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
why should I waste my time when you can go and do that research yourself? I know what I saw. The fact is that LA took Indurain's template and improved on it
Because you are making the claim....that's how it works. It appears you are unable to back up your claim. Did you just make it up?
 
Jun 12, 2011
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Exroadman24902 said:
why should I waste my time when you can go and do that research yourself? I know what I saw. The fact is that LA took Indurain's template and improved on it
As stated,since you missed it the first time-we don't know where to find all these incidences.You're the one telling us they exist,saying we're too biased/stupid to find them.Please,help us open our eyes and see,since you seem to know all.
 

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