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I think Acosta was mostly after the Indurain years? Think I was thinking of Marino Alonso.roundabout said:Jose Vicente Garcia Acosta?
But he's still riding.
It was one or the other, not two separate instances. I thought it was the Tourmalet but it might well have been the Galibier and I'm not about to do any research on thisroundabout said:I think it was the Galibier in 99?
or was he first over the Tourmalet as well?
VeloCity said:I don't recall Jose Luis Arrieta ever winning the Queen Stage of the Tour.
GJB123 said:I guess it shouldn't be a problem then showing a video link of the "Banesto train" demolishing all GC contenders in mountain stage by relentlessly pounding away for 2 or mountains with let's say 4 or 5 domestiques.
In other words, those numbers prove diddly sh*t in comparsion to the MO of the USPS train.
Regards
GJ
pmcg76 said:Melchor Mauri only was on one of Indurain's successful Banesto teams in 94 so not sure where you are getting that one.
On the 91 Banesto team, Delgado was a former Tour winner regarded as one of the best climbers of his generation and Bernard a Tour podium finisher who regularly won mountain TTs. Rondon was widely regarded as one of the best mountain domestiques of his generation. That was before the EPO generation arrived so I dont think seeing those guys finishing high up in the Tour or riding strongly in the mountains as surprising.
Yes they had a very strong team but the comparison with early US Postal and guys like Hamilton, Livingston, Landis, Hincapie, Vandedvelde who had little climbing pedigree in comparison to the Banesto guys mentioned is stretching it.
Later on guys like Heras, Rubiera, Beltran, Azevedo had climbing pedigree before they arrived at Postal so it wasnt exactly surprising to see then drilling it on mountain stages. I think the issue is more with guys like Hincapie, Andreu, Joachim being on the front in the mountains.
In summary, was there a Banesto train, yes a handful of guys with high pedigree but it was limited in comparison to the Postal train where even the lower level domestiques were frequently to be seen on the front in the mountains.
Of course - top teams always buy up the best talent they can afford. But USPS' budget wasn't any bigger than any of the other teams, and in fact iirc it was actually quite a bit smaller than the other "big" teams like T-Mob and Mapei etc. And certainly doesn't explain how one team can become dominant over equally rich and even richer teams over 7 years.Exroadman24902 said:Like MI signing Jeff Bernard and Rue, USPS did the same stuff. Didn't USPS also have a very big budget to simply buy the best grand tour riders and make them rich riding for L. Heras, Azevedo (5th in Giro 01, 6th in TDF 02) , Beltran, Rubiera (10th and 8th in Giro 97, 98( some others as well)...is it such a huge shock they could ride in a dominating way as new team? Not really. They were very good climbers before L signed them. The idea he drugged them all is ridiculous
blutto said:...I have to admit that holding your position in the face of over-whelming evidence to the contary is quite charming....just remember that in Bugs Bunny's Magnus Opus Hare We Go ( Bugs Discovers America ) that King Ferdinand was not the hero...
Cheers
blutto
GJB123 said:Show me the video, Elmer!
Regards
GJ
GJB123 said:Show me the video, Elmer!
Regards
GJ
VeloCity said:Over that same period, T-Mob had Ullrich, Bolts, Kloden, Julich, Vino, Sevilla, Guerini, Botero, Nardello, Jaksche, Totschnig, Elli. Every bit as impressive a cast as Heras, Popovych, Beltran, Rubiera, Azevedo, Landis, Hamilton, if not more so, don't you think?
Yes, but why weren't there consistently 3-4-5 T-Mob riders in the final group on the climbs, like USPS? You'd think that would be even more likely if they were riding as individuals and not destroying themselves for one guy.Polish said:Impressive list of individuals, yes.
But as a TEAM they sucked.
Disjointed. Backstabbing. Multiple goals. Unfocused. UnCommunicative.
Leadership hello, where are you. Hello?
Did not have Musketeer Spirit.
Nice Team Bus though.
edit....there best Team effort was when they pulled Lance to the base of Alpe d'Huez lol.
VeloCity said:Of course - top teams always buy up the best talent they can afford. But USPS' budget wasn't any bigger than any of the other teams, and in fact iirc it was actually quite a bit smaller than the other "big" teams like T-Mob and Mapei etc. And certainly doesn't explain how one team can become dominant over equally rich and even richer teams over 7 years.
Over that same period, T-Mob had Ullrich, Bolts, Kloden, Julich, Vino, Sevilla, Guerini, Botero, Nardello, Jaksche, Totschnig, Elli. Every bit as impressive a cast as Heras, Popovych, Beltran, Rubiera, Azevedo, Landis, Hamilton, if not more so, don't you think?
Exroadman24902 said:You're on a misson bro. USPS budget wasn't any bigger than T mobile? Can you prove that , or maybe Bruyneel was just good at his job?
and stop being vague about the terms of debate and maybe then I will debate with you more
There's not really anything to debate - you started this thread by claiming the Banesto train was equivalent to the USPS. It wasn't. You claimed that USPS had a larger budget than other teams and could therefore afford to buy better riders. They didn't have a bigger budget and they didn't have better riders. What's left?Exroadman24902 said:You're on a misson bro. USPS budget wasn't any bigger than T mobile? Can you prove that , or maybe Bruyneel was just good at his job?
and stop being vague about the terms of debate and maybe then I will debate with you more
VeloCity said:There's not really anything to debate - you started this thread by claiming the Banesto train was equivalent to the USPS. It wasn't. You claimed that USPS had a larger budget than other teams and could therefore afford to buy better riders. They didn't have a bigger budget and they didn't have better riders. What's left?
And it's pretty evident that I'm not the one on a mission.
Exroadman24902 said:They picked well, Bruyneel did. Anyway, continue on with the get Lance for doping but ignore Indurain..
Exroadman24902 said:They picked well, Bruyneel did. Anyway, continue on with the get Lance for doping but ignore Indurain..
Race Radio said:Is it OK if they "Get lance" for Tax evasion, Witness tampering, trafficking, and money laundering?
Hurry, Doug Miller is waiting for your input
dbrmuz said:We're all still awaiting the apparently many,many incidences of Banesto towing Big Mig up the hills,blowing all others to their doom along the way.Feel free to enlighten us,as we're all obviously looking in the wrong places.
Exroadman24902 said:let's see it proven in court. For the moment I think 7 grand tour wins by Indurain are as legit as 7 grand tour wins by LA. You don't.
Exroadman24902 said:why should I waste my time when you can go and do that research yourself? I know what I saw. The fact is that LA took Indurain's template and improved on it
Exroadman24902 said:why should I waste my time when you can go and do that research yourself? I know what I saw. The fact is that LA took Indurain's template and improved on it