The Banesto Train in the mountains

[Susan Westemeyer]

BAck on topic. Now. And stay there.

Susan

 

[Cobblestoned]

It doesn't make any sense - that is the problem. I just have no idea what you are asking or why? The words you are writing don't i) make any sense or ii) have any relevance to my post or the original topic.

I guess you research still needs some time to be finished, and you play the stupid language card to win some minutes or just try to avoid facts that destroy your stupid talk.
Man, you never make any sense, so you are not in the position to tell someone that he doesn't make any sense.
SSDD

 

[Lanark]

For anyone who is old enough to have seen both the Indurain-era and the Armstrong-era it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that there was such a thing as a Banesto-train, espcecially in comparison to the USPS-train we could all witness. I distinctly remember that almost all the followers, for example on Dutch tetelvision and Belgian television, said they had never witnessed a display of collective team power such as in the Armstrong-era. And neither had I and I am most definitely old enough to remember both era's vividly.

Regards
GJ

Agreed. Domestiques from one team could kill the domestiques from another team, but after that it was up to the main men. It wasn't untill the Armstrong days that you really saw domestiques like Hincapie eliminating the leaders from other teams. That was a new development. But we've seen a similar development in the sprint-trains (probably invented by Cipollini), in the days of people like Van Poppel a good team consisted of 2 or so helpers in the last 10 kilometers, now you have five or six guys appearing in the last 3 kilometers.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Stop it now with the insults. Please consider this an official warning.

Susan

 

[VeloCity]

for every thread that continues the double standards you measure the grand tour winners against, that shows how some of you are not anti-doping per se, but simply fickle anti-dopers, picky about which doper you want caught, I will remind you USPS were not the first to build super strong teams for the mountains.

Jeff Bernard, Gerard Rue...amazing how well Jeff started to ride again once he joined Banesto. Did the Banesto team maybe bringt them modern methods ???

There never really was a Banesto "train" in the mountains - most of the time it was Indurain on his own.

A better comparison might be CSC during Sastre's 2008 Tour win. But not Banesto.

 

[Hawkwood]

That wasn't just Indurain. That was common practise, and still is.
Give and take mostly works/worked fine.

I don't have a problem with it either. From memory there was one famous stage where Indurain had to call in all favours as he was in real trouble.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't remember a Banesto train...but I do remember their bus. They had a really nice bus. In the late 80's some of the teams stared using the big buses but Banesto was the first to really kit theirs out. Showers, special seating. When that thing showed up at it's first race in 1993 or 94 everyone was talking about it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't remember a Banesto train...but I do remember their bus. They had a really nice bus. In the late 80's some of the teams stared using the big buses but Banesto was the first to really kit theirs out. Showers, special seating. When that thing showed up at it's first race in 1993 or 94 everyone was talking about it.

I have managed to blag my way in to a lot of things in cycling but probably the best was talking my way on to the first team bus in cycling - PDM's.

I am pretty sure it had a shower - and it definitely had a coffee machine - but in comparison to what came later it was plain - but at the time it seemed like a crazy extravagance.

 

[VeloCity]

I have managed to blag my way in to a lot of things in cycling but probably the best was talking my way on to the first team bus in cycling - PDM's.

I am pretty sure it had a shower - and it definitely had a coffee machine - but in comparison to what came later it was plain - but at the time it seemed like a crazy extravagance.

heh, video cassettes.

 

[Exroadman24902]

I don't remember a Banesto train...but I do remember their bus. They had a really nice bus. In the late 80's some of the teams stared using the big buses but Banesto was the first to really kit theirs out. Showers, special seating. When that thing showed up at it's first race in 1993 or 94 everyone was talking about it.

If you followed it closely, you'd have seen Indurain's team hold races together for him to knock everyone out on the last climb like Armstrong did-it was Indurain LA modeled himself on. Take a look at the 1991 TDF team with Jeff Bernard towing Indurain up Alpe D'huez until the last 5 or 6km when Bugno goes..it was USPS tactics..Indurain paced at Lance/Pantani levels of speed and then Indurain takes over like Lance. There are other examples of Indurain calling on his team to pace at high speed through mountains but I'll wait and see how you reply as have my doubts about how much you know or remember of that era

 

[Exroadman24902]

Yes.

The only "double-standard" you'll find is that there won't be a host of people denying it.

there must be balancing threads to stop you and your friends giving the impression one single person is culpable for the sports doping problems. Many are responsible and hence I remind you with this thread, 1991-1995 was as much an outrage as 1999-2005.

 

[VeloCity]

If you followed it closely, you'd have seen Indurain's team hold races together for him to knock everyone out on the last climb like Armstrong did-it was Indurain LA modeled himself on. Take a look at the 1991 TDF team with Jeff Bernard towing Indurain up Alpe D'huez until the last 5 or 6km when Bugno goes..it was USPS tactics..Indurain paced at Lance/Pantani levels of speed and then Indurain takes over like Lance. There are other examples of Indurain calling on his team to pace at high speed through mountains but I'll wait and see how you reply as have my doubts about how much you know or remember of that era

One guy does not a train make. The difference with USPS was that often there were 3-4-5 USPS riders in the final group selection on the final climb. Don't recall ever seeing that with Banesto. One of the knocks against Indurain was that he rode so conservatively in the mountains (ie "boring"), but part of that was because he was so often isolated and had to ride defensively.

And then, of course, there was 2004, when 5 USPS riders finished in the top 11 (and 6 of the top 16) in the final ITT, after riding in support for Armstrong for 3 weeks. Don't recall that ever happening at Banesto, either, or any other team, ever, for that matter.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

there must be balancing threads to stop you and your friends giving the impression one single person is culpable for the sports doping problems. Many are responsible and hence I remind you with this thread, 1991-1995 was as much an outrage as 1999-2005.

And I'll remind you I said yes to your opening post.

I don't remember you being involved in threads like I have been about Contador, Basso, Valverde and many others which is probably why you are unbalanced.

 

[VeloCity]

there must be balancing threads to stop you and your friends giving the impression one single person is culpable for the sports doping problems. Many are responsible and hence I remind you with this thread, 1991-1995 was as much an outrage as 1999-2005.

Well you picked a really bad example, then, cause the Banesto "train" was nothing like the USPS trains.

And apparently you haven't taken a very good look at the various threads on the Clinic forum. If you had, you'd notice the threads over the years on Contador, Valverde, Landis, Hamilton, Millar, Vino, Basso, etc. The only poster fixated on the idea that "one single person is culpable" for cycling's doping problems seems to be you.

 

[blutto]

If you followed it closely, you'd have seen Indurain's team hold races together for him to knock everyone out on the last climb like Armstrong did-it was Indurain LA modeled himself on. Take a look at the 1991 TDF team with Jeff Bernard towing Indurain up Alpe D'huez until the last 5 or 6km when Bugno goes..it was USPS tactics..Indurain paced at Lance/Pantani levels of speed and then Indurain takes over like Lance. There are other examples of Indurain calling on his team to pace at high speed through mountains but I'll wait and see how you reply as have my doubts about how much you know or remember of that era

....wouldn't be holding my breath waiting as what you are suggesting is putting into question the selective memory syndrome that afflicts much of the discussion of certain topics on this forum...

...that being said I watched the same tours as you and have the same recollections....

...and as for trains from that era there was also The Pink Train that worked for Jalabert ( and which may have preceded Chipo's train ...maybe a topic for a new thread?..)...and Merckx purportedly had a pretty good team well before the period you are talking about...

Cheers

blutto

 

[VeloCity]

....wouldn't be holding my breath waiting as what you are suggesting is putting into question the selective memory syndrome that afflicts much of the discussion of certain topics on this forum...

...that being said I watched the same tours as you and have the same recollections....

...and as for trains from that era there was also The Pink Train that worked for Jalabert ( and which may have preceded Chipo's train ...maybe a topic for a new thread?..)...and Merckx purportedly had a pretty good team well before the period you are talking about...

Cheers

blutto

Trains on flats - like for Jalabert and Cipo back in the day - are commonplace. Trains in the mountains - like that for USPS, and which is the topic of this discussion - are not.

 

[Elagabalus]

Truth, is sometimes in the middle ...

La Plagne 1995

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMuzPBvIwEw

Although this video is mostly about Zuelle you do catch a glimpse of the Banesto "Train" who basically toasted themselves getting Big Mig to the foot of La Plagne.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Truth, is sometimes in the middle ...

La Plagne 1995

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMuzPBvIwEw

Although this video is mostly about Zuelle you do catch a glimpse of the Banesto "Train" who basically toasted themselves getting Big Mig to the foot of La Plagne.

Yup, and Tonkov attacks during that glimpse.

 

[Zweistein]

He had no train. Once, Festina, Mapei, and Gewiss were much stronger than Benesto. Big Mig was isolated or sitting on wheels in every mountain stage minus the one he won. One stage doesn't make a train.


Now someone is going to say now that Ullrich had a train because T-Mobile pushed on one stage in 2001.

 

[VeloCity]

getting Big Mig to the foot of La Plagne.

What we're talking about are trains leading the GC man up the climbs, not to the foot of climbs. Watch from 3:47 on, at the start of the actual climb: Indurain chasing Zulle alone, with not a teammate in sight.

Fun to watch those old videos though

 

[Polish]

What we're talking about are trains leading the GC man up the climbs, not to the foot of climbs. Watch from 3:47 on, at the start of the actual climb: Indurain chasing Zulle alone, with not a teammate in sight.

Fun to watch those old videos though

VeloCity, why weren't there any Mountain Trains in the 90"s?
Did they have Mountain trains in the 80's and 70's.
They did, didn't they?

Trains on flats - like for Jalabert and Cipo back in the day - are commonplace. Trains in the mountains - like that for USPS, and which is the topic of this discussion - are not.

I would disagree.

World Class Sprint Trains are as rare as World Class Climbing Trains.
World Class Trains like the Saeco Red Train or the Postal Blue Train are equally rare.

 

[VeloCity]

VeloCity, why weren't there any Mountain Trains in the 90"s?
Did they have Mountain trains in the 80's and 70's.
They did, didn't they?

Nope, not really. Back then, it was pretty much individual against individual, with the relatively rare exception of two equally strong GC riders on the same team (Lemond and Hinault in the '80s, for eg, or Riis and Ullrich in the mid to late '90s). But having 3 or 4 or 5 riders in the lead group of 20 or so riders on the final climb of a mountain stage? That was virtually unheard of before USPS (and to some extent T-Mob as well, in the days of Ullrich, Kloden, Vino, Bolts, albeit not with the same effectiveness).

I would disagree.

World Class Sprint Trains are as rare as World Class Climbing Trains.
World Class Trains like the Saeco Red Train or the Postal Blue Train are equally rare.

Sprint trains are a lot easier to put together than climbing trains, you just need a bunch of strong flatlanders, and strong flatlanders are easier to come by than are climbers. Basically speaking, any domestique can be part of a sprint train (although the truly superlative leadout men like Lombardi are not so common). But having 3-4 guys on the same team who can consistently climb with the best GC group? Not so much.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

If you followed it closely, you'd have seen Indurain's team hold races together for him to knock everyone out on the last climb like Armstrong did-it was Indurain LA modeled himself on. Take a look at the 1991 TDF team with Jeff Bernard towing Indurain up Alpe D'huez until the last 5 or 6km when Bugno goes..it was USPS tactics..Indurain paced at Lance/Pantani levels of speed and then Indurain takes over like Lance. There are other examples of Indurain calling on his team to pace at high speed through mountains but I'll wait and see how you reply as have my doubts about how much you know or remember of that era

If it was true to USPS tactics, Jeff would have pegged it (like in a lead out train for a sprinter) so Bugno couldn't attack. Instead, Jeff road steady - which meant he got dropped a couple of times, and clawed his way back.

It's a GREAT ride, but not a USPS-type launching for Mig.

 

[Polish]

Nope, not really. Back then, it was pretty much individual against individual, with the relatively rare exception of two equally strong GC riders on the same team (Lemond and Hinault in the '80s, for eg, or Riis and Ullrich in the mid to late '90s). But having 3 or 4 or 5 riders in the lead group of 20 or so riders on the final climb of a mountain stage? That was virtually unheard of before USPS (and to some extent T-Mob as well, in the days of Ullrich, Kloden, Vino, Bolts, albeit not with the same effectiveness).

So you are saying the 80's and the 90's were similiar.
Individual against Individual.
Strongest Rider wins.
Ok, sounds fair.

But what changed with Postal/Disco.
What did they do different from the 80's/90's?

The EPO era ended and hydration/transfusion came into play.
Genius Tactics and Team Building.
Emphasis on a climbing team.
(More commonplace now duh. CopyCats)
But what did Postal do different from the 90's Banesto etc?
What did Postal do different from their contemporaries Telekom Kelme etc?
They kicked **** - one major difference lol.

SPrintrains are a lot easier to put together than climbing trains, you just need a bunch of strong flatlanders, and strong flatlanders are easier to come by than are climbers. Basically speaking, any domestique can be part of a sprint train (although the truly superlative leadout men like Lombardi are not so common). But having 3-4 guys on the same team who can consistently climb with the best GC group? Not so much.

I think World Class Sprint Teams are harder to coordinate/build.
Lets just agree to disagree?

 

[rghysens]

Here's a proof of the whole banesto train in full action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jRU2XoD7MU&feature=player_detailpage#t=119s