The best 10 riders in the world

[barmaher]

Which hilly classic did Cance win?

Ronde van Vlaanderen
Strade Bianche
E3 Harelbeke

If we exclude the crash in the '12 RVV, here are the last 9 Monument results of Cancellara.

1st RVV, 1st PR, 2nd MSR, 3rd RVV, 2nd PR, 2nd MSR, 3rd MSR, 1st RVV, 1st PR

112322311....incredible.

 

[icefire]

Which race did Boonen neutralise to wait for a couple of teammates?

 

[Roderick]

Ronde van Vlaanderen
Strade Bianche
E3 Harelbeke

If we exclude the crash in the '12 RVV, here are the last 9 Monument results of Cancellara.

1st RVV, 1st PR, 2nd MSR, 3rd RVV, 2nd PR, 2nd MSR, 3rd MSR, 1st RVV, 1st PR

112322311....incredible.

If you call those races hilly races, than it is a pretty stupid example of Cance's versatility compared to Boonen since Tommeke has won more of them.

Actually I do think that Cance is better and more versatile, but only by a tad. It's not that Tommeke is a one-trick pony and Cance is the new Merckx

 

[barmaher]

I don't give them as examples of his versatility. I just listed them as hilly classics that he has won.

 

[The Hitch]

If you call those races hilly races,

Strade bianchi is.

 

[Echoes]

Which hilly classic did Cance win?

I remember he won Milan-Sanremo in 2008 but I guess nobody knows about this on CN.

 

[Roderick]

I remember he won Milan-Sanremo in 2008 but I guess nobody knows about this on CN.

Since when is Milan-San Remo a hilly classic?

Strade bianchi is.

Yeah I know, but it is a bit of an exception because of the roads.

 

[Echoes]

Since 1907

 

[IlPirata92]

Well...It will be this year!

 

[Roderick]

Since 1907

yeah right, especially since they first used the Poggio in the sixties and the cipressa and capi in the eighties

 

[IlPirata92]

so hilly that even Cav won it!

 

[Roderick]

Calling m-sr a hilly classic is like calling the Scheldeprijs a cobbled classic

 

[BigMac]

Hitch, nice video you shared. If we rely on and take results into account, I think that is a very well done all time list.

Regarding the Cance and Boonen discussion...

...If we argue Cancellara is better than Boonen due to his bigger versatility, shouldn't we as well say Sagan is a better classics rider than Cance (since classics =/= pavé) and Sagan is able to perform well on a much greater variety of races than Fabian? The forum polls tell the opposite, so I don't think they are very reliable, since Cancellara has a much bigger fanbase than Boonen here on this forum. If we follow that logic, ofc.

This is actually a question

 

[Echoes]

yeah right, especially since they first used the Poggio in the sixties and the cipressa and capi in the eighties

Documentate, please. Enough fooling yourself.

 

[Roderick]

Documentate, please. Enough fooling yourself.

I always thought the capi were put in the race years after the Poggio. Still it doesn't change the fact that M-SR was pretty flat the early years. And M-SR still isn't really hilly since cav, cipo, petacchi and goss were able to win it recently

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Hitch, nice video you shared. If we rely on and take results into account, I think that is a very well done all time list.

Regarding the Cance and Boonen discussion...

...If we argue Cancellara is better than Boonen due to his bigger versatility, shouldn't we as well say Sagan is a better classics rider than Cance (since classics =/= pavé) and Sagan is able to perform well on a much greater variety of races than Fabian? The forum polls tell the opposite, so I don't think they are very reliable, since Cancellara has a much bigger fanbase than Boonen here on this forum. If we follow that logic, ofc.

This is actually a question

Gotta win a couple of big races to even get a nomination imo.

Monuments
GTs
Worlds

Others will compliment a palmeres.

 

[The Hitch]

Winning a TdS perfectly suited to him because he is the home rider doesn't make him a stage racer and he never won bunch sprints nor the worlds nor any of the hilly classics. So what exactly is his wider variety of races?

Also one road race worlds is bigger than any amount of time trial worlds.

Your trying to change the goalposts and argue from prestige not ability. Oh boonen won the worlds (nevermind that as the Belgian he will get better teams than canc so the comparison is unequal to start with, or that courses change from year creating luck of the draw as a massive variable - one which exists in few other races)

Even then I don't think everyone would agree boonens palmares is better (canc has an Olympic medal, and more fame as a result of wearing the yellow jersey so often throughout the last decade)

But when it comes to ability most people agree as the poll shows one is clearly above the other. This -ignore everything apart from wins attitude that boonen fans take in these discussions (cos it's they only chance they have at promoting boonen as the better) seems to me quite sad. So we pretend everyone who didn't win a race sucked equally. Tony Martin's vuelta breakaway never happened? Domestique performances don't count.

Canc has podiums across all sorts of disciplines. Hes won, well we all know what he's won and it includes msr, the cobbles, Strade bianchi, loads of tts at all levels, the occasional bunch stage and some wt stage races.
He's also podiumed loads of monuments, on some occasions being screwed over by people conspiring against him. He came 5th in a worlds that was for gc guys 4th in one for champs elysee guys, 2nd in an Olympics course comparable to liege, and for the best part of a decade has spent 2 weeks of every year sacrificing his own chances to chaperone the schlecks around France.

Thats a far wider range of abilities. 2 pictures of a sprint don't change that

 

[The Hitch]

Calling m-sr a hilly classic is like calling the Scheldeprijs a cobbled classic

Dont get echoes started. Merckx won msr. Ergo it's a hilly classic

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I once said that Zabel winning Milan-San Remo didn't make him a man for hilly classics, because it isn't one. Echoes opened up a whole separate thread to complain about the disrespect shown to this classic race.

I felt the need to jump in and defend my argument, which was expressly NOT that Milan-San Remo isn't a classic, but that Milan-San Remo isn't a HILLY classic. If Milan-San Remo is a hilly classic because of Poggio and Cipressa, Liège-Bastogne-Liège is a cobbled classic for the short stretch on Roche-aux-Faucons, or Paris-Tours is a hilly classic for the few short climbs in the run-in.

The Ronde van Vlaanderen is far more hilly than San Remo, but most decent-thinking cycling fans will be prepared fight anybody who argues that de Ronde is not a cobbled classic more than it is a hilly classic in order to defend its honour.

Sure, Zabel won Amstel Gold a few times, so sprinters can win genuine hilly classics, and sure, Milan-San Remo wasn't a sprinters' race until Zabel. But San Remo is the classic that pure sprinters can win. Pure sprinters, almost by definition, are not puncheurs or climbers, so a race that they can win is almost by definition not a hilly race. Sure, there are the occasional sprinters who can get over the hills of a tougher race, like Óscar Freire or Erik Zabel, and there is occasionally a much more all-round Classics threat who is a good enough sprinter to compete with the best sprinters at San Remo, like Paolo Bettini or, now, Peter Sagan, but by and large the fact is that San Remo is not a hilly Classic; that is a term reserved for the ones with not just a few climbs but several. San Remo's challenge lays in its length and the lack of respite; the climbs are selective because of fatigue, not because of the severity of the climb; put the Poggio at the end of a 200km race and the only person dropped is Guardini, but at the end of a 300km race it's selective.

Milan-San Remo is a prestigious and important classic with over a century of history. It is sometimes unfairly derided, but that's because in recent years it has become known as a sprinters' race, and until the last few editions has been seen as among the least interesting of the monuments. But while you may consider people to be talking nonsense with their criticisms of the race does not mean that it's any less nonsense to pretend it's something it isn't to counter that.

The Olympic Road Race in Beijing and the World Championships in Mendrisio were far more proof of Cancellara's capability in a hilly classic than winning San Remo would ever be.

 

[Netserk]

When did he ever come 2nd in the Olympics???

As for the great 'conspiracy' against Canc... Such things have ofc never happened to Boonen, nor has he lost races because his team mate was up the road...

As for 2nd places, well cycling is about winning. A rider like Hoste might appreciate his 2nd places, but champions shouldn't be measured by losses. Oh and Boonen and Canc have just as many podiums in monuments, with Boonen having more wins.

 

[Echoes]

I always thought the capi were put in the race years after the Poggio. Still it doesn't change the fact that M-SR was pretty flat the early years. And M-SR still isn't really hilly since cav, cipo, petacchi and goss were able to win it recently

This much belongs to the clinic section now. Besides Goss climbs hills very well.

Gaetano Belloni on the Capo Mele in 1917:

I once said that Zabel winning Milan-San Remo didn't make him a man for hilly classics, because it isn't one.

I've seen Milan-Sanremo before and after he won it and NOBODY could ever believe this could ever happen. When Zabel won in Plumelec in that year's Tour of France on top of the C&#244] If Milan-San Remo is a hilly classic because of Poggio and Cipressa,[/QUOTE]

+ Turchino, Capi and recently Manie replaced by Pompeiana, thanks for them.

The Ronde van Vlaanderen is far more hilly than San Remo,

Yes but the race is shorter, making the climbs less hard. Flemish climbs are short too. I'd always take the Capo Berta over the Leberg, any day, for example.

San Remo's challenge lays in its length and the lack of respite]
Fully agree.
That is why it is hilly !

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This much belongs to the clinic section now. Besides Goss climbs hills very well.

Gaetano Belloni on the Capo Mele in 1917:

I've seen Milan-Sanremo before and after he won it and NOBODY could ever believe this could ever happen. When Zabel won in Plumelec in that year's Tour of France on top of the Côte de Cadoudal, he had to say it's a confirmation of his Sanremo win, such a surprise was his Milan-Sanremo win that he had to show he was more than a sprinter...

In 1998, he needed to bribe Gabriele Colombo in order to get the win, while Alberto Elli was on his way to winning it. He had no teammates left. It was disgusting.

In 1999 Tchmil crushed him. In 2000 they dropped the Turchino.

Besides, Zabel belongs to the clinic now.



+ Turchino, Capi and recently Manie replaced by Pompeiana, thanks for them.



Yes but the race is shorter, making the climbs less hard. Flemish climbs are short too. I'd always take the Capo Berta over the Leberg, any day, for example.


Fully agree.
That is why it is hilly !

I kind of understand your point but kind of don't.

So you are saying that the fact that a hill - which isn't very steep - could be selective because it's in such a long race, means that it is a hilly race? What if it was totally flat until then? Would it still be a hilly race? That would seem absurd to me, akin to calling Paris-Tours a hilly classic. I mean, it's possible for a bunch of riders to come to the end of the Clásica San Sebastián together, does that make that a flat race? How about the Frankfurt Maitagrennen?

Also, you seem to be suggesting that because a race is shorter means it is easier, regardless of obstacles. The climbs of the Ronde are easier after 240k than they would be after 300k, however Koppenberg after 100km is harder than Poggio after 200km. The climbs of the Ronde are more numerous, and several of them are harder (and because of the cobbles are different in character and suit different riders) than any of those of San Remo. You are too intelligent to really think that a shorter race makes a tougher climb easier than an easier climb in a longer race (as reductio ad absurdum would then make something like a flat race finishing on Mont-des-Alouettes harder than a Monte Zoncolan MTT, which I think we would both agree is a bit ridiculous unless the cross-winds were gale force), so I'll assume you're meaning that de Ronde's climbs are easier in de Ronde than they would be if de Ronde was the same length as San Remo. Otherwise your argument would be worthy of Paulo Martins, who believes that time gaps are not accurate when the breakaway is descending because they're travelling faster than the bunch that is still climbing.

[Also, while it was undoubtedly shocking that Zabel won San Remo at the time, but since his win 6 other sprinters - Cipo, Óscarcito, Ale-Jet, Cav, Goss and Ciolek - have won it. While Freire and Goss are both more than adept at getting over obstacles and Goss won it from a group of only 8 so it can't be considered a sprint victory per se, 50 riders came in the lead group in 2002, 70 in 2004, 50 in 2005, 75 in 2006 even if Pippo's win wasn't truly a sprint, 60 in 2007 and 50 in 2009. It's turning back into the race it once was and should be, but for a decade after Zabel the groups coming in to contest the sprint together were far too large for it to be considered a hilly race. Obviously a sprint like that would not be possible in a genuine hilly race like Liège, or a race with a hill finish like Flèche, but Amstel Gold moved the finish to the Cauberg because they didn't want sprinters like Zabel winning, and even back when Olaf Ludwig won the group contesting the victory was far smaller than that]

 

[jens_attacks]

a classic that probably even myself can go on its climbs in the big ring all the way is not hilly.

 

[The Hitch]

Besides, Zabel belongs to the clinic now.

So does the male Marianne Vos

 

[Parrulo]

So does the male Marianne Vos

So does classicomano Luigi