The best climbers in the world?

[Libertine Seguros]

Best allrounder struggled to defeat Gesink in the mountains lol.

Since every other rider gets derisively laughed at when they are praised, who IS the best all-rounder in YOUR eyes?

Basically, what I'm saying is, Contador (who can't sprint and hasn't really tried the Ardennes enough to make a call on) or Gilbert (who can't climb on anything more than a couple of km long), since I infer from your posts that every other rider in the world is crap?

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Valverde was/is the best all rounder.
Was good in the mountains, albeit inconsistent.
Was great in the hills.
Had a pretty great sprint for a 'climber'.
had done some great (and bad) time trials. Needed the right course.
Could handle his own on the descents.

And was such a consistent rider. Always getting results.

 

[Galic Ho]

---
@garlic ho, your posts just indicate to me you didn't watch the vuelta.
For example Gesink rode away from valverde on multiple occasions from 08 and 09 vuelta. Anyway I can't be bothered arguing about Gesink anymore, IMO he has shown massive potential and strength in many races.
you then say gesink was allowed to get away, while being less then a minute behind. and don't mention that rujano on both attempts was minutes behind. Again, your posts reak of contradiction.

I could say the same about your and Dekker Tifosi. I stated early on in this thread, I only started watching the Giro in 2009 and seeing it isn't on TV in Australia, that means I have to stay up late at night into the early morning. I'm guessing people don't read every comment. AS I said, this debate, has been done twice before. You guys must have forgotten. I'm also guessing you both contributed 1/3 of the votes for Gesink on the poll in another thread on who will win the Tour this year. We'll see how well he goes. Right now, I rate Nibali the better climber of the two. Actually, I rate Gesink somewhere near Kreuziger. Don't worry, with all the baracking for him I'll be watching and no, I won't come back to gloat if he doesn't set the world alight by attacking and beating everyone, let alone not making top 5 at the Tour. But he could...

 

[Galic Ho]

He was 4th in last year's Vuelta, but that was with a relatively weak field (especially with Andy in his usual non-Ardennes/Tour mode, Sastre in his 3rd GT of the year, Antón crashing out and ruining the race of Bruseghin, Plaza and Urán in the process, and Intxausti underperforming).

And he already has a mountain jersey (2005 Vuelta), and was 3rd to Angliru in 2008 (sticking with Contador longer than his team leader, and being the only Caisse rider not sacrificed when Valverde was an idiot on the way to Suances), so I can see why he may not be satisfied to do a Virenque and just collect GPMs (not to mention that he's now far too dangerous to let up the road to take the points so unless he's doing a Piepoli, he's going to find it hard to collect enough points).

So Rodriguez was the guy with Valverde. There you go. I've seen footage of the stage before, didn't know who the second Caisse guy was. Guess I do now. Valverde was a minute back right? Rodrgiuez about 40 seconds if I remember correctly.

Good point about being let up the road. His chrono is a major let down. He is worse than Franck Schleck and that is saying something. He's failed at times to crack the top 100. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't envy that at all. He needs to improve something, or deliberately lose time early on so he can go for stage wins and a jersey. Failing to make the top 5, again and again just doesn't bode well IMO. He should get something other than a random stage win with his talent, hence go for the climbing jersey, he's got the talent to go out and get it and then defend it.

 

[El Pistolero]

Since every other rider gets derisively laughed at when they are praised, who IS the best all-rounder in YOUR eyes?

Basically, what I'm saying is, Contador (who can't sprint and hasn't really tried the Ardennes enough to make a call on) or Gilbert (who can't climb on anything more than a couple of km long), since I infer from your posts that every other rider in the world is crap?

Contador of course.

Who cares if he can't sprint? When do you see Valverde in a flat stage sprinting for the victory these days?

Best allrounder is a cyclist who's good in all aspects of cycling. Like recuperation. Valverde ain't better on the hills than Contador in top shape, just isn't. He'll only gap him in the final sprint. The best allrounder who can't beat a young Gesink. Yeah, right.

As if you can't find hilly stages in stage races. Please... If you can't make a call on whether Contador is capable of doing good in LBL then that's your problem.

The last time Valverde impressed me in the hills was 2008 anyway.
Valverde's time trial isn't all that anyway.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So Rodriguez was the guy with Valverde. There you go. I've seen footage of the stage before, didn't know who the second Caisse guy was. Guess I do now. He was a minute back right? Valverde about 40 seconds if I remember correctly.

That's right. Rodríguez stayed with Contador longer, but Valverde let go with a bit more in his tank, and caught back up to Rodríguez, who then dragged Valverde super-domestique style for a bit before blowing up.

Good point about being let up the road. His chrono is a major let down. He is worse than Franck Schleck and that is saying something. He's failed at times to crack the top 100. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't envy that at all. He needs to improve something, or deliberately lose time early on so he can go for stage wins and a jersey. Failing to make the top 5, again and again just doesn't bode well IMO. He should get something other than a random stage win with his talent, hence go for the climbing jersey, he's got the talent to go out and get it and then defend it.

Fränk Schleck's ITT has improved immeasurably in the last 2 years. I say immeasurably because you can't divide by zero.

Rodríguez is in a similar quandary to Cunego - very good in the hilly Classics, but not quite good enough to compete for the win in the Grand Tours - yet too dangerous to be allowed to have any time until they've dropped a bunch. He may be better served cutting some deals and riding up to the top with various GC guys and picking up stage wins and GPMs that way, deliberately riding within himself in flatter stages. Not dropping major time so that he's allowed to escape in the breakaways, but enough that he's fresh enough to be a threat in these mountain stages.

Apart from the CERA, Leonardo Piepoli should perhaps be the target he has in mind. Rodríguez can sure climb. Like, really well when in form. On the steepest stuff he's an absolute monster.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Contador of course.

Who cares if he can't sprint? When do you see Valverde in a flat stage sprinting for the victory these days?

País Vasco 2010. Twice.

Best allrounder is a cyclist who's good in all aspects of cycling. Like recuperation. Valverde ain't better on the hills than Contador in top shape, just isn't. He'll only gap him in the final sprint. The best allrounder who can't beat a young Gesink. Yeah, right.

You don't have to be better on the hills than Contador to be a better all-rounder. The very point of an all-rounder is that they can do everything. In that respect, the best all-rounder won't necessarily be the best cyclist - they'll be somebody who can do everything pretty well, but there may be somebody who is better at the constituent elements of it. Sprinting is part of cycling, much as I wish it wasn't. So "who cares if Contador can't sprint?" really depends on how you set the parameters for "best all-rounder".

For my money, we don't have a proper all-rounder in the péloton right now. Not a 'true' all-rounder. The last one was Paolo Bettini.

As if you can't find hilly stages in stage races. Please... If you can't make a call on whether Contador is capable of doing good in LBL then that's your problem.

The last time Valverde impressed me in the hills was 2008 anyway.
Valverde's time trial isn't all that anyway.

You weren't impressed by his comeback on La Pandera? By his expert job on Lagunas de Neila? Mont Ventoux? Man, tough crowd.

 

[El Pistolero]

Mont Ventoux and Pandera are hills? Lol.

Please note however that there is a difference between Mont Ventoux in DL and Mont Ventoux in the TDF.

 

[El Pistolero]

Paolo Bettini the last true allrounder?

Haha, thanks for the laugh. Even Gilbert is more varied than him.

Besides Contador IS better in all aspects of cycling except in sprint than Valverde. So yeah, I do rate him above Valverde quite easily.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Paolo Bettini the last true allrounder?

Haha, thanks for the laugh. Even Gilbert is more varied than him.

When was the last time Gilbert finished in the top 10 of a GT? Won a bunch sprint? Won a difficult short stage race?

I'm not saying Valverde's a better rider than Contador - he's not. But he's a jack of (almost) all trades, which Contador is not. Contador doesn't need to be. But just because he's amazing at climbing and time trialling doesn't make him an "all-rounder" in the definition we're using.

 

[rghysens]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlcQ3mxlNfs&feature=player_detailpage#t=146s

 

[El Pistolero]

When was the last time Gilbert finished in the top 10 of a GT? Won a bunch sprint? Won a difficult short stage race?

I'm not saying Valverde's a better rider than Contador - he's not. But he's a jack of (almost) all trades, which Contador is not. Contador doesn't need to be. But just because he's amazing at climbing and time trialling doesn't make him an "all-rounder" in the definition we're using.

But he's also great on hills. Just because he doesn't enter LBL doesn't mean he can do good in a race like that. Well 2010 proved otherwise anyway. If Vino wasn't up front he'd have caught Valverde.

Paolo Bettini never did much in a GC for a GT and only got in top 10 through breakaways. Gilbert could do that, but why would he really?

Gilbert is competive in all classics. Bettini was not. I rest my case.

Besides, I don't think Valverde's a bad cyclist. He's one of the best. But he doesn't beat Contador. His time trialing and climbing is too mediocre for that(compared to Contador and Contador alone mind you)

Ps: Perhaps you should watch Tour of Belgium. Sure, not the hardest ones, but he is good in these stage races. Was also competitive in Tirreno-Adriativo(the only big stage race Bettini won?) I know you probably don't care about this aspect of the sport. But cobbles are also a part of it

Valverde is a much better allrounder then Bettini lol. Gilbert doesn't come close to what I see as an allrounder. Just cause I like him doesn't mean you have to bring him up all the time though. I never said Gilbert was an allrounder. An allrounder in the classics yeah.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But he's also great on hills. Just because he doesn't enter LBL doesn't mean he can do good in a race like that. Well 2010 proved otherwise anyway. If Vino wasn't up front he'd have caught Valverde.

This is quite likely. However we're judging what we think would probably happen vs. what we know has already happened. It certainly looks like Contador could have the measure of Valverde on the short hills. But I also rate Valverde as the superior descender of the two - and can Contador open up gaps on the short hills that Valverde can't close on the way down? On a long climb, I'd have absolutely no doubt. But until we see it, it's all just urinating in the wind.

Paolo Bettini never did much in a GC for a GT and only got in top 10 through breakaways. Gilbert could do that, but why would he really?

Even if it's via breakaways, a GT top 10 is a GT top 10. If you tell Óscar Pereiro his yellow jersey at home isn't worth anything cos he won it in a breakaway, he has every right to laugh and say "I don't care".

Gilbert is competive in all classics. Bettini was not. I rest my case.

Which conveniently ignores the GT/stage race side, of course. I suspect Gilbert may be slightly better against the clock though.

Besides, I don't think Valverde's a bad cyclist. He's one of the best. But he doesn't beat Contador. His time trialing and climbing is too mediocre for that(compared to Contador and Contador alone mind you)

As I said in my last post, I don't actually think Valverde's a better cyclist than Contador. But the debate on 'all-rounder' seems to be moot; you're looking at "who is the best cyclist, all things considered?" whereas I'm looking at "who is the best on average, if you weight all skills equally?"

Ps: Perhaps you should watch Tour of Belgium. Sure, not the hardest ones, but he is good in these stage races. Was also competitive in Tirreno-Adriativo(the only big stage race Bettini won?) I know you probably don't care about this aspect of the sport. But cobbles are also a part of it

I have been keeping an eye on the Tour of Belgium, using RTBF.

Valverde is a much better allrounder then Bettini lol. Gilbert doesn't come close to what I see as an allrounder. Just cause I like him doesn't mean you have to bring him up all the time though. I never said Gilbert was an allrounder. An allrounder in the classics yeah.

I brought up Gilbert first as a bit of a joke at you defending Contador and Gilbert and being critical of all else.

I then didn't mention Gilbert until you brought him in as a point of comparison vs. Bettini.

 

[El Pistolero]

My reasoning isn't that Contador is the best cyclist but it's this

Hills: meh, both just as good for the lack of real strong evidence
Mountains: Contador in most climbs.
Time trials: Contador in all kind of time trials
Sprints: Valverde hands down
Recuperation: Contador hands down
Descending: Probably Valverde, although Contador isn't too shabby at descending.
Bike handling: both of them hardly crash, so equal in my book. Although there's an incredible vid about Contador almost crashing, but saving him self.
Cobbles: both have done nothing on them.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Jesus Christ, could people please stop arguing with El Pistolero about this? There's only so many times I can bear to read the term "all rounder" patiently explained to him.

 

[c&cfan]

Contador of course.

Who cares if he can't sprint? When do you see Valverde in a flat stage sprinting for the victory these days?

Best allrounder is a cyclist who's good in all aspects of cycling. Like recuperation. Valverde ain't better on the hills than Contador in top shape, just isn't. He'll only gap him in the final sprint. The best allrounder who can't beat a young Gesink. Yeah, right.

As if you can't find hilly stages in stage races. Please... If you can't make a call on whether Contador is capable of doing good in LBL then that's your problem.

The last time Valverde impressed me in the hills was 2008 anyway.
Valverde's time trial isn't all that anyway.

your problem with valverde is gilbert.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I could say the same about your and Dekker Tifosi. I stated early on in this thread, I only started watching the Giro in 2009 and seeing it isn't on TV in Australia, that means I have to stay up late at night into the early morning. I'm guessing people don't read every comment. AS I said, this debate, has been done twice before. You guys must have forgotten. I'm also guessing you both contributed 1/3 of the votes for Gesink on the poll in another thread on who will win the Tour this year. We'll see how well he goes. Right now, I rate Nibali the better climber of the two. Actually, I rate Gesink somewhere near Kreuziger. Don't worry, with all the baracking for him I'll be watching and no, I won't come back to gloat if he doesn't set the world alight by attacking and beating everyone, let alone not making top 5 at the Tour. But he could...

Got nothing to do with thinking gesink can win the tour, I don't even vote in polls. Very rarely anyway.

Gesink isn't the best climber, but your posts just ooze of ignorance, belittling him to an average climber.

 

[Spine Concept]

Got nothing to do with thinking gesink can win the tour, I don't even vote in polls. Very rarely anyway.

Gesink isn't the best climber, but your posts just ooze of ignorance, belittling him to an average climber.

It's not the first time he's done that either. He reeks of hater. I've had this discussion with him once already, but you can't get anything reasonable past his thick skull. I've learnt that in this case ignorance is bliss

 

[The Hitch]

Contador IS better in all aspects of cycling except in sprint than Valverde. So yeah, I do rate him above Valverde quite easily.

Umm i think Valverde is a little bit better than Contador at hilly classics, no?

Saying " Contador would obviously win every classic he entered if he wanted to", doesnt quite beat 2 LBL's and a FW.

Valverde is also a way better descender.

 

[sunnyIce]

My reasoning isn't that Contador is the best cyclist but it's this

Hills: meh, both just as good for the lack of real strong evidence
Mountains: Contador in most climbs.
Time trials: Contador in all kind of time trials
Sprints: Valverde hands down
Recuperation: Contador hands down
Descending: Probably Valverde, although Contador isn't too shabby at descending.
Bike handling: both of them hardly crash, so equal in my book. Although there's an incredible vid about Contador almost crashing, but saving him self.
Cobbles: both have done nothing on them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVzNFnOx-RA

 

[Havetts]

That was more luck than a save to be fair..