The blurred lines of Livestrong - the spin bike sham

[AnythingButKestrel]

Whilst the original discussion was well meant this thread has now been Hijacked by Ne'rdowells to the extent that it is causing alarm to people who are motivated to raise funds for Livestrong.
When you arrive on fatcyclist.com you wil find refs to this thread and see the damage that is being done to people who quite rightly support Livestrong for the work that they are doing.
Comparing Livestrong Apples to SGK oranges is counterproductive in that both organisations have different goals as i point out in my blog and others who have far greater credibility discuss in their efforts.

AS i have stated elsewhere knocking "Tall Poppies" is a sport some enjoy and if they stand to collect 10% of the proceeds by standing on their soapbox raving on about what they know best "Sporting Fraud" then we should IGNORE them rather than fuelling a non existant grievance that they wish to settle.
Livestrong is about 10+ years in the public arena and as grown to be a force for helping those suffering Big C. and like other org.s has it's supporters and detractors.
Toyota is a big organisation also who have had product problems and people have issues with them but do they go on about the "childish side issues"?

I think not!

Please no more Mud Throwing!

1. If the money that I and others have given to Livestrong in the mistaken belief that the proceeds were going to cancer hadn't ended up as kerosene smoke at 36,000 feet, none of us would be here having this discussion. When someone realizes that all they're actually buying is "awareness," that's a bitter pill to swallow, hence the righteous anger.

1a. I'm not sorry that your readership is here on the CN forums getting a different perspective. I'm not sorry that it "alarms" them. The fact that they are concerned and commenting is evidence enough that in the back of their minds they know that something is amiss in Austin.

2. The grievance is real, not imagined. "Awareness" should not cost more than actually fighting cancer.

3. Toyota does not have a corresponding .org site that claims to be a charity, but then redirects its revenues into a slush fund for "Mr. Toyota."

4. Livestrong claims to be a cancer charity. Benchmarking it against other cancer charities is completely fair and appropriate.

5. The term is "ne'er do well." How you have associated people's desires for donations to a cancer charity to actually go to fight cancer and not merely make people *aware* of cancer with "Ne'rdowells" (sic) baffles me.

6. While on the subject of "ne'er do well," how do the McDonalds food ads plastered across your cycling-oriented web site mesh into a lifestyle of Livin' Strong? Mosey on over to Netflix sometime and rent yourself a copy of "Super Size Me" then reflect upon that marketing arrangement a bit.

 

[red_flanders]

Right here on the CN forum: "The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures."

Seems clear to me - according to CN's guidelines, The Clinic is not the place to discuss corporate charity fraud (or what effectively amounts to it), given that it's the place to discuss doping or testing procedures.

Must have missed the logic class that day?

 

[euanli]

There is no doubt that Fat Cyclist has been brought in to be a buffer for a long while. Its a shame as it is a visible, recorded abuse of peoples trust.

 

[BroDeal]

There is no doubt that Fat Cyclist has been brought in to be a buffer for a long while. Its a shame as it is a visible, recorded abuse of peoples trust.

When you are getting sweetheart deals on mountain bikes from Trek, you can overlook a lot, even people exploiting the disease that killed your wife.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm reminded of a genuinely Grand Champion... http://road.cc/node/28770

Great link there BianchiGirl. Thanks for the reminder, and keeping things in perspective.

Please no more Mud Throwing!

What you perceive as being mud throwing, others here view as being as hosing off the mud itself.

I spend a lot of time here and seem pretty involved in the workings of the place. Let me know how to collect my 10% if someone could.

 

[red_flanders]

I had the honor of meeting Gino in the mid 80's. I was working in a local bike shop and in walks this older man who was gazing at a big blow-up print we had of two old-skool TDF racers duking it out in the mountains. There was something about him that made us pay attention. We asked him if he liked the poster and he asked us if we knew who they were. My friend pointed at one guy and said "I dunno, is that Fausto Coppi?". He took two steps back, shook his head and said "Thatsa notta Coppi! Thatsa ME! Gino Bartali! I won that race! The guy nexta to me isa Coppi!".

Gino stayed and chatted with us for over an hour, signed our poster, posed for photos, etc. We shared our lunch with the man, and it was one of the highlights of my life. Sitting around and sharing our love of cycling. He thought very highly of Greg Lemond as I remember.

It was cool, as he'd been in town on vacation visiting a relative. He'd heard that we were the "bike racing shop" in town and he decided to come hang with us, just because he loved bikes. RIP Gino!

BTW, this was the photo in question:

Love it, thanks for sharing!

 

[Granville57]

Whilst the original discussion was well meant this thread has now been Hijacked by Ne'rdowells to the extent that it is causing alarm to people who are motivated to raise funds for Livestrong.

It may be presumptuous of me, but I'd say that is kind of the point.
The neat thing about this forum is that all the previous posts are readily available for anyone to read through. If one were to show up on a forum about, say, The American Civil War, it would probably behoove them to have read, at the very least, one or two books on the topic. If what is being presented here is upsetting or unfamiliar then perhaps spending a few weeks or months reviewing all the previously presented evidence, links, insight, etc. that go back well over a year, would be time well spent.

As for this request:

Please no more Mud Throwing!

Bad time of year for that...

 

[thehog]

Whilst the original discussion was well meant this thread has now been Hijacked by Ne'rdowells to the extent that it is causing alarm to people who are motivated to raise funds for Livestrong.
When you arrive on fatcyclist.com you wil find refs to this thread and see the damage that is being done to people who quite rightly support Livestrong for the work that they are doing.
Comparing Livestrong Apples to SGK oranges is counterproductive in that both organisations have different goals as i point out in my blog and others who have far greater credibility discuss in their efforts.

AS i have stated elsewhere knocking "Tall Poppies" is a sport some enjoy and if they stand to collect 10% of the proceeds by standing on their soapbox raving on about what they know best "Sporting Fraud" then we should IGNORE them rather than fuelling a non existant grievance that they wish to settle.
Livestrong is about 10+ years in the public arena and as grown to be a force for helping those suffering Big C. and like other org.s has it's supporters and detractors.
Toyota is a big organisation also who have had product problems and people have issues with them but do they go on about the "childish side issues"?

I think not!

Please no more Mud Throwing!

First thing is thank you for posting.

I think alternate argument to the themes that are being presented in this thread is very important. You are right though about the Big C. I do find it admirable the work that is conducted in the name of cancer research and support. Right you are that there are many volunteers who devote untold amounts of time to the cause. This is not what we are questioning. The issue is one of ethics and law. We are using our democratic right to question the chairman and founder of the Livestrong organisation who we believe is using “questionable” methods in running the organisation and blurring the lines of the “for profit” and charity entities. There are also questions and the reason why this thread remains in the clinic that the use of dope to achieve the victories that are so much celebrated and a main thrust of the organisation as shield against accusations of using drugs.

This thread has brought together some interesting points of view. We had a poster who has worked in the Livestrong organisation and has seen the change form charity with good intentions turning itself into a commercial outlet for Demand and the board. We’ve had posts from people who themselves suffered from cancer or had families members experience the same. These are not views of the uneducated. They are a fascinating insight into the organisation at their time of need.

You speak of damage. Its not damage we’re causing here. Its questioning the organisation. Is it viable? Is it beyond reproach? Does it use its funds appropriately? Perhaps the real damage is being caused by the Livestrong founders who not only use it as a means for personal profit but to protect against accusations of cheating in sport.

Perhaps we’re all wrong. Perhaps we’ve missed the point in all of this. What would be good rather than labelling us as “damaging” the cause but provide counter analysis of the good work occurring at Livestrong. Tell us about the programs that are having a positive effect. Tells us that the money is well spent and used to its maximum. Tell us that the exorbitance we've seen is well intended and necessary. I’d like to know. As based on the evidence I’ve seen I see very little in the way of measurable successes at the organisation when weighed against money donated vs money spent.

Somehow I get the feeling you won’t be able to provide these details. Because there is none. Its all so woolly..... but I’m willing to listen.

 

[R.0.t.O]

Whilst the original discussion was well meant this thread has now been Hijacked by Ne'rdowells to the extent that it is causing alarm to people who are motivated to raise funds for Livestrong.
When you arrive on fatcyclist.com you wil find refs to this thread and see the damage that is being done to people who quite rightly support Livestrong for the work that they are doing.
Comparing Livestrong Apples to SGK oranges is counterproductive in that both organisations have different goals as i point out in my blog and others who have far greater credibility discuss in their efforts.

Kind of like what happened to a lot of cycling fans, all of us at different points over the last 20 years have woken up to the dark realities of what we were involved in. And plenty of people who were yet to realise the full extent posted plenty of stuff on various forums like "stop talking about this stuff, you're just undermining the sport." If people are involved with a corrupt charity and giving their time and money to it, then they should know. It's uncomfortable and bursts personal bubbles for people, and cancer is way more important than us lot coming to terms with most of the races we watched for years and years being corrupt, but it's basically the same journey to go on.

Anyone concerned about the efforts that Livestrong are making should rest easy !

It really does start looking like a cult. In my experience I've spoken to a lot of Armstrong fans who accept that he doped and can reconcile themselves to that in the light of what happened in cycling, but when you point out the .com/.org arrangement they are very surprised and disappointed. The new allegations seem to go a long way beyond that as well.

 

[Berzin]

The biggest revelation about all this is not how and what Armstrong has done over the years, it's the level of support he receives from people who have absolutely nothing to gain by associating themselves with him or believing in his myth so vehemently.

I see things from another perspective now. Now I understand the mentality that propagates religious cults, street gangs, and military dictatorships. Even well-heeled yuppies feel they must choose colors and mark their allegiances.

But the average corporate goon doesn't have too many athletes they can look to and say "He's just like me. I'm successful, driven, hyper-motivated, I'll do anything to get an edge on my rivals-just like Lance. I succeed because I outwork everyone, just like Lance". This is why his myth will die hard-but die it will.

What will these obsessed fanboys do once the smoke clears?

 

[Velocentric]

Personally I'd welcome Eldens contribution to this thread. He's probably the 'biggest' (pardon the pun, Fatty) non-celeb public figure that most of us can relate to who's involved with Livestrong. It was his Families story that encouraged me to donate to Livestrong many times, both for his competitions (who wouldn't want to win an awesome bike?!) and for the fact I wanted to support the work they were doing.

This isn't about belittling the efforts of those actually involved in the work against Cancer. This is about questioning the practices of a charitable organisation that has (perhaps deliberately, perhaps by poor planning) blurred the lines between it's NFP & Business to the point where questions QUITE RIGHTLY have to be asked.

There is no doubt and can be no question the Livestrong brand continues to make huge sums of money for business entities. There should be a clear, final line between the two with full disclosure of what goes where. When you buy a Nike 'Livestrong' cycling jersey you should know exactly how much of your purchase goes to the .org and how much goes to Nike (and by extension Lance). Is that too much to ask? And that's just one example of the business partnerships that should be scrutinised.

As for the accounting standards and discrepancies - how is it wrong to go over publicly filed papers, check the figures and point out potential problems? To say this is wrong or mud slinging indicates a head in the sand mindset which helps nobody.

Like it or not by making himself the figurehead of an organisation like he has, Lance has opened himself up to question & expectations. This is nothing new, this isn't about throwing mud. Eventually, even the best built house of cards comes down. Once that happens we can only hope that something good remains and that we all learn how to do things better next time around.

 

[fatandfast]

The biggest revelation about all this is not how and what Armstrong has done over the years, it's the level of support he receives from people who have absolutely nothing to gain by associating themselves with him or believing in his myth so vehemently.

I see things from another perspective now. Now I understand the mentality that propagates religious cults, street gangs, and military dictatorships. Even well-heeled yuppies feel they must choose colors and mark their allegiances.

But the average corporate goon doesn't have too many athletes they can look to and say "He's just like me. I'm successful, driven, hyper-motivated, I'll do anything to get an edge on my rivals-just like Lance. I succeed because I outwork everyone, just like Lance". This is why his myth will die hard-but die it will.

What will these obsessed fanboys do once the smoke clears?

Berzin you also left out the group of people that give to a cause without a name or return address on the envelope..sometimes in cash. People in all walks of life give just to have a sense that they are helping. I don't see the outrage in the lack of follow up on Haitian donantions or Katrina(??) People promised to give millions,most of it was just words and no cash. Successful people in all walks of life share the traits of,being driven,hyper motivated,trying to outwork everybody. I hope doctors,teachers,fire dept employees,baristas,strippers,home health care workers all feel this way. I hope they give until they can't give no more. There are many that are highly motivated and I would hardly think them all to be goons. Bill Gates said that 1 of his main motivations in working so hard was the the good that the money does after he makes it. Giving a donation to a cancer cause and being in a cult are a difficult association to make but at least you tried. You are correct that most people judge Armstrong on a much larger set of criteria..they don't look dwell on if and when he lied to Betsy in 1999 or if he sold a rusty Eddy on ebay. To the general money giving,needing and recieving public they think Landis is the fraud not Armstrong. most cycling outsiders get all caught up in the facts..like all the tests the both were given and the critical ones that Flyod flunked and the 100's that LA passed..it's called court not cult. Is Lance an arrogant punk..sure..is he a military dictator,gang leader come on..Lance lost out for the lead in Malibu's Most Wanted

 

[jimbob_in_co]

Giving a donation to a cancer cause and being in a cult are a difficult association to make but at least you tried.

They are two different groups, but that does not make them mutually exclusive. Some of those who RAISE a great deal of money for the LAF act almost as if they WERE in a cult. Believe me, I saw it first hand.

You are correct that most people judge Armstrong on a much larger set of criteria..they don't look dwell on if and when he lied to Betsy in 1999 or if he sold a rusty Eddy on ebay.

I believe the admission of drug use you refer to happened in 1996, unless I am thinking of a different event.

Could you hook me up with one of those 'rusty Eddy' bikes (a.k.a. top of the line, "Bleeding edge", not available to the public, $7000-$10000 in price, rigs to be used by pro riders on one of the more successful team in the racing circuit)?

Oh that's right, who needs the FACTS when there is a defense of questionable (to possibly illegal) actions to spin.

To the general money giving,needing and recieving public they think Landis is the fraud not Armstrong. most cycling outsiders get all caught up in the facts..like all the tests the both were given and the critical ones that Flyod flunked and the 100's that LA passed..it's called court not cult.

Armstrong has failed or dodged tests numerous times in his career, even with his 'early warning system' in place. Plenty of admitted doping pros also shared how they beat testing, including Floyd.

Is Lance an arrogant punk..sure..is he a military dictator,gang leader come on..Lance lost out for the lead in Malibu's Most Wanted

For now anyway, I think 2011 is going to be a long year for him. Almost anything can happen, except maybe for standing on the top step of the TdF podium for an eighth time.

 

[thehog]

Armstrong was not in a position to elaborate on the FDA investigation yesterday, but nonetheless broke his silence on the matter to say the probe had not impacted his day-to-day life.

"I don't let it affect me," Armstrong told the Herald. "I have five kids to raise. I have a foundation to help run and lead. I still have, theoretically, a job - I ride my bike and train every day. It has no effect in what I do on a daily basis."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...rmstrongs-new-perspective-20110105-19gbq.html

Stellar article by Rupert Guinness!!!

Let the TDU freak show continue.

 

[MD FACG FACP]

The bottom line here is livestong.com should not exist.

If people are helped by livestrong.org that is a good thing.

The perception has been created that livestrong means cancer charity. Livestrong.com is not a cancer charity, it's disingenuous at best.


--------------------
It's called "mud slinging" btw

 

[jimbob_in_co]

The bottom line here is livestong.com should not exist.

If people are helped by livestrong.org that is a good thing.

The perception has been created that livestrong means cancer charity. Livestrong.com is not a cancer charity, it's disingenuous at best.


--------------------
It's called "mud slinging" btw

+1 Perfectly stated. Thank you.

(The kicker for me re: the dot com site was when I started getting 'spam' for weight loss programs after registering for livestrong.com back in its early days. Here was a product of questionable use being presented right under the Livestrong banner with their copyrighted "Livestrong" shade of the color yellow and everything. I canceled my account that very day.)

 

[Ferminal]

Armstrong was not in a position to elaborate on the FDA investigation yesterday, but nonetheless broke his silence on the matter to say the probe had not impacted his day-to-day life.

"I don't let it affect me," Armstrong told the Herald. "I have five kids to raise. I have a foundation to help run and lead. I still have, theoretically, a job - I ride my bike and train every day. It has no effect in what I do on a daily basis."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...rmstrongs-new-perspective-20110105-19gbq.html

Stellar article by Rupert Guinness!!!

Let the TDU freak show continue.

I was thinking of making a thread "Will Australia (/the media) still treat Lance like KING". Of course I am leaning towards the affirmative, after all we are backwater down here. We love the man more than his home country and it will take a few years yet for that affection to wane. I have a problem with that because what has LiveSTRONG done for us here... I'd hate to find out that people in Australia have donated to LiveSTRONG ahead of the local cancer charities (unless of course they have valid reasons to do so - like a passion for improving cancer support for American patients). Maybe he can get the LAF to chip in a few mil to the QLD flood victims like any good cancer charity should do.

What I also find interesting in your quote is Lance talking about his "Foundation", funny how this stands out a lot more (than in previous articles) because of the discussion we are having here. I think "Foundation" must be code for how he can extract funds from the LiveSTRONG name and how his network of companies/"Foundations" can minimise his personal expenses.

Hog, when you said stellar article I thought you were being genuine (of course it's stellar from a comedic perspective but not much else). I guess this basically confirms what I said in the first paragraph that I think Lance will get the nice treatment still in 10 days time.

especially when founding cancer-research initiatives, as has been the case in South Australia.

Which initiatives would they be, Rupert? I also like the perception that such "vitriol" stems solely from the Landis accusations, whereas as evidenced here, there has been 2 decades worth of "vitriol", many references here go back way before Landis joined USPS.

No longer are they solely words of adulation from fans. In recent months, some reports and statements have been vitriolic.

Vitriolic (as the opposite of adulation)?

Armstrong, who has never failed a dope test and has undergone hundreds - possibly thousands - of controls, declared his innocence to Landis's claims in May. And ever since last year's Tour de France, in which he placed a disappointing 23rd, he has remained tight-lipped about them and the investigation.

Incorrect - Armstrong has never been sanctioned for a failed dope test. He officially failed one test, tested positive in 6 unofficial tests, and allegedly failed an official test on one more occasion. Thousands of controls? We've been over these numbers before, have we not?

A visit by Armstrong to the Coalition Armed Forces in Iraq and Afghanistan last month helped to put things into perspective

Who paid for the fuel?

He is clearly tiring of other issues that drag the sport down - issues that blow up into scandals that could have otherwise been settled with more unity among the various stakeholders who come under the auspices of the Union Cycliste Internationale. As examples he cites race licensing, entries and radio protocols.

All you had to do was let Floyd ride the 2009 Vuelta!

Lance:"But it's at a sensitive state right now. Other sports have a done a good job ignoring whatever issue they may or may not have; or dealing with it internally, or dealing with it through a players' union or teams' union or governing body."

I laughed...

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Armstrong was not in a position to elaborate on the FDA investigation yesterday, but nonetheless broke his silence on the matter to say the probe had not impacted his day-to-day life.

"I don't let it affect me," Armstrong told the Herald. "I have five kids to raise. I have a foundation to help run and lead. I still have, theoretically, a job - I ride my bike and train every day. It has no effect in what I do on a daily basis."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...rmstrongs-new-perspective-20110105-19gbq.html

Stellar article by Rupert Guinness!!!

Let the TDU freak show continue.

Another LA sycophant journalist .....

 

[Polish]

This caught my eye this morning along with the first comment on the Wired website. Now excuse my maths but I think the basic principle of my argument still applies....


http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/12/livestrong-stationary-bike-wins-tour-de-bedroom/

Great review of the new @livestrongfit spin bike in @wired !! http://tinyurl.com/34p6v2x - Lance Armstrong Twitter feed.
_

.

Seems like a decent bike.
Cool Graphics.....
$1000 bucks for a good cause...

Anyone ride one yet?

http://www.livestrongfitness.com/product/ls28ic/
.
.
.
.

 

[euanli]

Lance:"But it's at a sensitive state right now. Other sports have a done a good job ignoring whatever issue they may or may not have; or dealing with it internally,"

Says it all really.

 

[thehog]

Seems like a decent bike.
Cool Graphics.....
$1000 bucks for a good cause...

Anyone ride one yet?

http://www.livestrongfitness.com/product/ls28ic/
.
.
.
.

I'm sure there was only 500 available 2 months ago.

 

[oldschoolnik]

What you perceive as being mud throwing, others here view as being as hosing off the mud itself.

.

Great quote. I am going to use that one. Thanks.

 

[jimbob_in_co]

Seems like a decent bike.
Cool Graphics.....
$1000 bucks for a good cause...

Anyone ride one yet?

http://www.livestrongfitness.com/product/ls28ic/
.
.
.
.

I'm reminded of the Christmas when my (then) five year old nephew learned to say the word 'poopie' and repeated it about 50 times that day.....

 

[BotanyBay]

The biggest revelation about all this is not how and what Armstrong has done over the years, it's the level of support he receives from people who have absolutely nothing to gain by associating themselves with him or believing in his myth so vehemently.

I see things from another perspective now. Now I understand the mentality that propagates religious cults, street gangs, and military dictatorships. Even well-heeled yuppies feel they must choose colors and mark their allegiances.

One must go no further than listening to this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vexjWIvwsVg

Won't you please lend a hand?

 

[BotanyBay]

Armstrong was not in a position to elaborate on the FDA investigation yesterday, but nonetheless broke his silence on the matter to say the probe had not impacted his day-to-day life.

"I don't let it affect me," Armstrong told the Herald. "I have five kids to raise. I have a foundation to help run and lead. I still have, theoretically, a job - I ride my bike and train every day. It has no effect in what I do on a daily basis."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...rmstrongs-new-perspective-20110105-19gbq.html

Stellar article by Rupert Guinness!!!

Let the TDU freak show continue.

It has a great effect. When he gets home at night and has to TALK to these five children, its the difference between the *** dad and the nice one.