The Bobby Julich files

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I'm ambivalent about limited and late confessions. Is something better than nothing? I guess it helps paint a picture of the extent of doing at the time, which might inform anyone who has yet to put one and one together about cycling. But it also adds to the pretence that everything has changed and cycling is now fine.

Can't help wondering how big Julich's severance package will be. Works nicely for Sky if they can buy limited confessions from the support staff. It distracts attention from their current riders like ROGERS. Can't have a current Sky rider admit now can we....people might think the past is not in the past yet.

 

[Oldman]

I am having second thoughts because of this post. Well explained and redacted.

On the other hand we have known for some time that one day races and short races can be won cleaneashly as opposed to GT's. That's if you are extremely talented. So how talented was Julich??

not that talented. He was beat and battered as a young amateur along with many of the Eddie B/Carmichael generation. Because they would do the sh*t they could hit a Continental level that kept them going because of a myopic American support system. Nowadays there would be legions of clean guys better than them.

 

[will10]

Where was that extreme talent in 99-2003?

Getting his head kicked in by the "forty-nine point f*cking sevens"?

 

["Jeff"]

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. He didn't race in Europe, so you don't know anything about his results--therefore, he didn't have any...

He was national mtb champ as a junior, was second at Cascade in his first year as a pro (Check out Talansky's results there to give you some idea of how "easy" of a race it is), and he won a stage race in Europe while riding for a domestic US team, his second year on the road. I actually can't think of another US domestic pro to pull of that feat? Flandis was a doper, but he was always a massive talent from the beginning...way more than Armstrong.

You're telling me I have no clue and than you come up with this ? The icing on the cake is your last sentence. Nobody has to agree with me but its comical that some people who didnt even know cycling existed in the '80s, let alone got any coverage, are going to tell me now that I dont know what I'm talking about.

Its obvious we have some Landis lovers around here. After all he was the national mtb champ as junior.

 

["Jeff"]

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. He didn't race in Europe, so you don't know anything about his results--therefore, he didn't have any...

He was national mtb champ as a junior, was second at Cascade in his first year as a pro (Check out Talansky's results there to give you some idea of how "easy" of a race it is), and he won a stage race in Europe while riding for a domestic US team, his second year on the road. I actually can't think of another US domestic pro to pull of that feat? Flandis was a doper, but he was always a massive talent from the beginning...way more than Armstrong.

You're telling me I have no clue and than you come up with this ? The icing on the cake is your last sentence. Nobody has to agree with me but its comical that some people who didnt even know cycling existed in the '80s, let alone got any coverage, are going to tell me now that I dont know what I'm talking about.

Its obvious we have some Landis lovers around here. After all he was the national mtb champ as junior.

 

[blackcat]

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. He didn't race in Europe, so you don't know anything about his results--therefore, he didn't have any...

He was national mtb champ as a junior, was second at Cascade in his first year as a pro (Check out Talansky's results there to give you some idea of how "easy" of a race it is), and he won a stage race in Europe while riding for a domestic US team, his second year on the road. I actually can't think of another US domestic pro to pull of that feat? Flandis was a doper, but he was always a massive talent from the beginning...way more than Armstrong.

thanks 131313 for the input

and we know Ferrari tested him before the Tour and said his results were superior to Wonderboy

 

[hrotha]

I always thought back in their amateur days Julich was considered the biggest American hope for GTs and Armstrong for the classics?

Anyway, not enough emphasis being put on Jaksche's affidavit, which directly contradicts Julich's statement.

 

["Jeff"]

thanks 131313 for the input

and we know Ferrari tested him before the Tour and said his results were superior to Wonderboy

I was waiting for this actually, surprised it took this long.

Ferrari seriously ? He's an expert but that man can absolutely not be trusted on ANYTHING considering his past, denials, hidden agenda, what he has done....whatever. You name it.

Everyone around here flames that man for everything (rightfully so) but when he has something positive to say, no than we just close our eyes.

Some people.

 

[pmcg76]

I was waiting for this actually, surprised it took this long.

Ferrari seriously ? He's an expert but that man can absolutely not be trusted on ANYTHING considering his past, denials, hidden agenda, what he has done....whatever. You name it.

Everyone around here flames that man for everything (rightfully so) but when he has something positive to say, no than we just close our eyes.

Some people.

So I see the one bit of my previous post you missed was asking you to name rider's from the same era who you consider naturally talented.

The idea that you think because you followed pro cycling in the 80s somehow makes you more of an expert is laughable. Do you really believe that you are the only person who followed pro cycling then?

The way you tried to explain away things are still **** poor.

 

[Von Mises]

Your facts are Floyd Landis' blue eyes and no, I dont have my facts wrong and no, you cant answer my questions because that makes you look dumb. Saying Landis started to dope in June 2002, two weeks before the Tour...lovely...

Nope, I pointed to this factual error you made:

In the USADA rapport it was said that Landis had a blood extraction just before the Tour and that Landis was told (in 2001 already) that Armstrong had taken EPO in the Tour of Switzerland 2001.

Then you continued

You think Landis was riding clean for a full year after hearing about Lance' positive test in 2001 ?

You are stubbornly saying that Landis was told in 2001 that Armstrong had taken EPO. You even claim that this is said in USADA files.

But thats not true, every source, including USADA files say that Landis was told in 2002 (not in 2001).

This is not a proof about Landis talent or lack of it, but it just shows that you are sloppy with your facts and sloppy with your arguments. Thats it.

 

[Benotti69]

I was waiting for this actually, surprised it took this long.

Ferrari seriously ? He's an expert but that man can absolutely not be trusted on ANYTHING considering his past, denials, hidden agenda, what he has done....whatever. You name it.

Everyone around here flames that man for everything (rightfully so) but when he has something positive to say, no than we just close our eyes.

Some people.

Not trusting people because they deny and have hidden agendas is very narrow minded.

If we did that, USADA would have not trusted, Landis, Hamilton, Hincapie, Vaughters, Leipheimer, Andreus, Zabriskie, Emma O'Reilly, and a host of others.

Most people here see Landis for what he is and was. There is very little hero worshipping of Landis but respect for doing the right thing.

Jullich is not telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

 

["Jeff"]

So I see the one bit of my previous post you missed was asking you to name rider's from the same era who you consider naturally talented.

The idea that you think because you followed pro cycling in the 80s somehow makes you more of an expert is laughable. Do you really believe that you are the only person who followed pro cycling then?

The way you tried to explain away things are still **** poor.

No I dont think that. But when some people from North-America, for God's sake, are going to tell me that I'm talking out of my ***, than yes I have to make a point. Its like I'm going to slam you about baseball and American football. Now you do NOT have to agree with me, like I already said, but dont act like I'm some kind of nitwit. I visited the Tour de France, the classiques and several World championships when mommy was still changing the diapers of some of you. I even raced against and with some people who turned professional.

 

[ToreBear]

I always thought back in their amateur days Julich was considered the biggest American hope for GTs and Armstrong for the classics?

Anyway, not enough emphasis being put on Jaksche's affidavit, which directly contradicts Julich's statement.

Jaksche mentions Julich receiving cortisone from team doctors. This might not be doping, due to UCIs lapse TUE regulations.

He also mentions he saw a list written by the team doctors that Julich had a hematocrit over 50%. We don't know Julich natural Hematocrit, and under what circumstances it was measured. If Julich had a natural Hematocrit of say 47, an altitude training camp over a few weeks could have pushed him over 50%. Though I have little knowledge of the range of variation possible through legal means, as well as the amount of measurement error possible before one would redo the test.

So in a sense Jaksches affidavit gives no slam dunk proof. There could easily be legit reasons for what Jasche was seeing.

When Jaksche went to Fuentes, Fuentes was surprised Riis didn't send him when he was at CSC. I remember Basso being mentioned by Fuentes in some writing relating to Fuentes. Can't remember where I read it right now.

I'm thinking that up until 2006 Riis only made sure his riders were within legal limits.

But he had special arrangements with his team leaders which I think he kept hidden from everyone else on the team.

Julich mention of 2006 in his confession would seem to support this theory. The Puerto case and Basso's involvement surprised him.

Also Zabrieski and Vandevelde indicated no pressure to dope on CSC, and hence they quit. Again supporting the notion of one or two "special riders" on Riis team who he referred to Fuentes.

So CSCs organized doping program consisted IMHO of only the very few.

The question is if Julich was one of the few. I'm inclined to believe he wasn't. But I'm still skeptical.

As for his results in 2004 I'm also skeptical. It could be he kept his doping secret from everyone. Wife, Riis etc. Or that the Cortisone TUE gave him a big enough edge.

 

[pmcg76]

No I dont think that. But when some people from North-America, for God's sake, are going to tell me that I'm talking out of my ***, than yes I have to make a point. Its like I'm going to slam you about baseball and American football. Now you do NOT have to agree with me, like I already said, but dont act like I'm some kind of nitwit. I visited the Tour de France, the classiques and several World championships when mommy was still changing the diapers of some of you. I even raced against and with some people who turned professional.

With every post you are making yourself look more and more ridiculous. Euro snobbery it is now. One of the guys who addressed you is an actual pro rider if I am not mistaken. I guess US Pros know jack about cycling in your eyes.

I am European, have followed the sport going back to the 80s and have been to most of the major races also, met and talked to pro riders but I don't think that automatically means I know more than someone from the US or outside of Europe, especially if they have competed at a high level.

Finally you still never answered my question on who you consider a natural talent in the Landis era. A truckload of guys is not an answer either.

 

["Jeff"]

With every post you are making yourself look more and more ridiculous. Euro snobbery it is now. One of the guys who addressed you is an actual pro rider if I am not mistaken. I guess US Pros know jack about cycling in your eyes.

I am European, have followed the sport going back to the 80s and have been to most of the major races also, met and talked to pro riders but I don't think that automatically means I know more than someone from the US or outside of Europe, especially if they have competed at a high level.

Finally you still never answered my question on who you consider a natural talent in the Landis era. A truckload of guys is not an answer either.

You somehow feel the need to speak on behalf of everyone and are putting words in my mouth. With some I disagree, no problem at all but some are just acting silly = problem.

It all started when I said Landis is only a product of doping, nothing else. Some are offended by that, that's the issue. His whole career with results is doping related and there's not much else to show for. The odds that I'm right is a little bigger than those who think otherwise, dont you think ? I read a few ridiculous counter arguments and opinions. MTB champ of the US as junior was my favorite.

I didnt answer your question who I consider natural talents in the Landis era because that will only turn into another debate while this was off-topic already. That's all.

 

[pmcg76]

You somehow feel the need to speak on behalf of everyone and are putting words in my mouth. With some I disagree, no problem at all but some are just acting silly = problem.

It all started when I said Landis is only a product of doping, nothing else. Some are offended by that, that's the issue. His whole career with results is doping related and there's not much else to show for. The odds that I'm right is a little bigger than those who think otherwise, dont you think ? I read a few ridiculous counter arguments and opinions. MTB champ of the US as junior was my favorite.

I didnt answer your question who I consider natural talents in the Landis era because that will only turn into another debate while this was off-topic already. That's all.

Lame *** response, I would suggest the real reason you dont want to name anyone is because you know they all doped as well, but the main difference being most of the Euro's were doping from a very young age, many before they even turned pro so we have no idea whether they were more naturally talented than someone like Landis who wasn't doping at such a young age..

The real tragedy of the EPO/Blood transfusion era is that it made it impossible to identify made talent from real talent. You claim that somehow you know different but your views seem more based on nationality than anything rational.

 

[Escarabajo]

You somehow feel the need to speak on behalf of everyone and are putting words in my mouth. With some I disagree, no problem at all but some are just acting silly = problem.

It all started when I said Landis is only a product of doping, nothing else. Some are offended by that, that's the issue. His whole career with results is doping related and there's not much else to show for. The odds that I'm right is a little bigger than those who think otherwise, dont you think ? I read a few ridiculous counter arguments and opinions. MTB champ of the US as junior was my favorite.

I didnt answer your question who I consider natural talents in the Landis era because that will only turn into another debate while this was off-topic already. That's all.

Please answer the question, who in the EPO and blood doping era was a natural talent at a young age in your opinion? or at least tell us how to properly recognize that talent?

 

["Jeff"]

Please answer the question, who in the EPO and blood doping era was a natural talent at a young age in your opinion? or at least tell us how to properly recognize that talent?

C'mon Escarabajo. Everyone can answer this question. Check all results of the World Championships for prospects/juniors together with the well-known races for this level. Check their results when they turned pro and if they had any doping issues or any negative stories, proven or not proven (rumours).

I think you can make a nice list.

 

[spetsa]

It all started when I said Landis is only a product of doping, nothing else. Some are offended by that, that's the issue.

No, we are not offended at all, just pointing out the fact that you are full of sh*t. Some of us know and raced with or against him 3/4 of a decade before you most lkely had ever heard of him.

 

["Jeff"]

No, we are not offended at all, just pointing out the fact that you are full of sh*t. Some of us know and raced with or against him 3/4 of a decade before you most lkely had ever heard of him.

So now you are going to tell us, we should be proud of this freak as well ? I wished we had never heard of him. That would have been the best thing for all of us.

 

[131313]

No I dont think that. But when some people from North-America, for God's sake, are going to tell me that I'm talking out of my ***, than yes I have to make a point.

That's because you are talking out of your a$$, but this thread is about Julich and not Landis, so I'm not going to beat this horse any longer than this post. I'm not really sure how you expect Euro results from someone who wasn't actually racing in Europe... but the first Euro stage race Flandis did (Charentes), he won. Yeah, it's not the TDF, but it was still a quality field, many of whom I'm sure were doped. This was in his second year of racing full-time on the road. If that doesn't qualify as "highly talented", then I'm not really sure I can help you.

As far as Julich, I don't have any first-hand knowledge, but looking through his results the '04-'05 results are such outliers that it's just hard for me to believe they were achieved clean. I'm saying I'm 100% certain or anything, but it seems incredibly unlikely to me that he's being truthful. And while I'm willing to believe Riis took an "individual approach" to doping, helping facilitate a select few while not engaging in a widespread doping program, his comments that he "wasn't aware of anything" don't lend much credibility to his statement, IMO.

 

[131313]

So now you are going to tell us, we should be proud of this freak as well ? I wished we had never heard of him. That would have been the best thing for all of us.

I'm not sure what you're going on about here, but there's a big difference between recognizing someone's ability and "being proud of them"? Personally, I'm pretty ambivalent r.e. Flandis. He cheated a ton of guys, and he really only did the right thing when he was out of other options. That said, he finally did the right thing, in the face of a massive s@#$storm, and his actions in coming clean and throwing everyone under the bus will ultimately prove to be a pretty pivotal moment in cycling. What's done with that moment, I have no idea.

"Wishing we never heard of him"? Well, I don't agree with you there. Without Flandis, JV would still be talking in obscure terms, Levi would still be selling the lie that he never doped, and Bruyneel would still be running a team. The fact that you're accusing others of not being able to look at things objectively is, well, quite ironic.

 

["Jeff"]

I'm not sure what you're going on about here, but there's a big difference between recognizing someone's ability and "being proud of them"? Personally, I'm pretty ambivalent r.e. Flandis. He cheated a ton of guys, and he really only did the right thing when he was out of other options. That said, he finally did the right thing, in the face of a massive s@#$storm, and his actions in coming clean and throwing everyone under the bus will ultimately prove to be a pretty pivotal moment in cycling. What's done with that moment, I have no idea.

"Wishing we never heard of him"? Well, I don't agree with you there. Without Flandis, JV would still be talking in obscure terms, Levi would still be selling the lie that he never doped, and Bruyneel would still be running a team. The fact that you're accusing others of not being able to look at things objectively is, well, quite ironic.

For somebody who didnt want to beat this horse any longer, you sure spend a lot of time on this matter, so I guess I hit a nerve.

 

[131313]

For somebody who didnt want to beat this horse any longer, you sure spend a lot of time on this matter, so I guess I hit a nerve.

I type quickly, so it's not much work... Funny though that you'd rather criticize me than address the content of my post. Very telling...

 

["Jeff"]

I type quickly, so it's not much work... Funny though that you'd rather criticize me than address the content of my post. Very telling...

I've said what I wanted to say and certainly dont want to make Landis a 'martyr' like you are doing now. I've wasted hours and hours watching that US Postal crap. I thought the years with Miguel Indurain were bad, but boy, I was pretty wrong. All these supposed talents from North-America who came to Europe at age 26-30. I always thought they added absolutely NOTHING (in contrast to the young guns like Phinney etc) and meanwhile that has been proven as well. Most top Italian, Spanish riders havent been anything better but we were stuck with them, after all cycling is an old-fashioned/European sport.