The Chris Squared Thread

[thehog]

Horner did his damage to Froome's times on more then one climb, that is why it is so compelling

Snap!

2 climbs to be exact. One of Horner's had straight line tailwind. Compelling.

As Froome has also done to Horner.

But huge margins as well.

Froome's power duration @ 5.9 is longer the Horner's v T/V.

Both clearly doping (I believe).

I place Froome in the same bucket as Horner.

Both are very bad for the sport wouldn't you agree?

 

[thehog]

There was a tailwind?

My point is, we can't comment with such certainty based on data which uncertain by its very nature. If you want to add some certainty you need a large sample and a good descriptive analysis of all the factors in every case. In this comparison we simply don't know, I'd go with my gut but not like we can wager it in the future.

Sorry just got around to cleaning up my links.

Yes on Pena Cabarga there was a strong tailwind as reported by Gazetta analysis of Horner's climbing and reported by Cyclingnews. A 5km straightline climb with a tailwind. No wonder he went fast.

According to Gazzetta Horner's estimated VAM of 2034 apparently beats those set by Contador (1926) and Rodriguez (1903) on the Cuitu Negru climb on stage 14 of last year's Vuelta. Roberto Heras set a figure of 1900 in 2002. A reported tailwind helped the riders on the climb of Peña Cabarga and could be a factor in the high numbers.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gazzetta-dello-sport-scrutinizes-horners-power-data-at-the-vuelta

Incidentally the weather gods were shining on Horner. Stage 3 there was also a strong tailwind on the final climb that Horner won.

“The winds today were strong, but always from the same direction. When we came to the final climb it was a tailwind for the riders, and that kept the pace very high. Horner made a strong move in the last 2k and Vincenzo did well to keep close at the finish. There are 13 mountain stages in this Vuelta, and it will take strong legs and a smart head to climb them. We are not disappointed to let go of the red jersey today, and we look forward to the rest of the Vuelta to try and take it back,” Shefer said.

http://pelotoncafe.com.au/2013-vuel...s-red-jersey-on-stage-3/#sthash.1B6g9R8Y.dpuf

Horner also believed at Tirreno-Adriatico he was one of the best riders in the world. He talks about how he split the group on Froome and Nibali. Clearly Horner was on form. Although Froome stronger on the regulation long mountain climbs like Prati Di Tivo beating Horner convincingly.

“The toughest part is when you’re sitting at home the whole time, watching races go by that you can get results at. You have to remember, ‘The last race I was at … [excluding Catalunya, where he was injured] I was at I was with the best riders in the world. And not behind them, literally with them. Clearly the last stage at Tirreno-Adriatico — it wasn’t [Vincenzo] Nibali that split the group on that climb, it was me that split the group on that climb. Ok? So clearly my level of fitness is with the best riders in the world,” Horner said.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...e-vuelta-horner-searches-for-lost-time_297594

I'd say Horner is much better at the really step stuff compared to Froome. Whereas Froome just kills him on the long climbs and of course time trials.


I need to stop cycling so much and post more links! (300km over the weekend!).

 

[Race Radio]

even more staggeringly, Valverde and Nibali over a.minute faster than froome on Angliru and murito about 40 seconds.

And yet when they have come across froome,none of these guys have gotten anywhere near froome for the last 2 years.

.

It appears Valverde was faster at the Vuelta then he was at the Tour

Peña Cabarga 410.5 W for 17:04
Ax-3-Domains 373.5W for 24:20

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It appears Valverde was faster at the Vuelta then he was at the Tour

Peña Cabarga 410.5 W for 17:04
Ax-3-Domains 373.5W for 24:20

I am sure you can link us up for this one?

 

[Ferminal]

Are they on the SRM site? Can't find them.

Seems that he didn't deteriorate at all from the Tour to the Vuelta, once you account for the length and Pailheres I guess they are fairly close.

 

[thehog]

I am sure you can link us up for this one?

Tailwind at Pena. And 5km long.

Of course he produced more watts than a longer climb.

17 minutes vs 24 minutes gives you an indication of this.

Not rocket science.

Need more data than that to work with to draw any conclusions.

Links are important.

 

[sublimit]

Horner did his damage to Froome's times on more then one climb, that is why it is so compelling

Horner put in a big gear and just went full bore to the top on those, Froome was usually attacking, slowing then going again etc during his various duels.

So Horners times are always going to be better due the way he was riding, or more like time trialling uphill.

 

[the sceptic]

Tailwind at Pena. And 5km long.

Of course he produced more watts than a longer climb.

17 minutes vs 24 minutes gives you an indication of this.

Not rocket science.

Need more data than that to work with to draw any conclusions.

Links are important.

Here is what the good doctor has to say about it

It is especially the performance of Pena Cabarga (545m of elevation at 9%) that triggered the Reviewers: VAM = 1958 m/h - 6.75 w/kg - 425w (assuming Horner's weight to be 63kg).
I remind you that this performance was achieved in 16'42" of effort, partly behind the wheels of other riders, at sea level and Horner himself had already expressed similar performances in the past (see "Horner Vs Contador", my comment of 2011).
The same Nibali, whose form did not seem to match the one shown in the recent Giro d' Italia, managed to perform at similar levels, if somewhat lower: 1912 m/h - 6.59 w/kg - 415w (with 63kg of body weight).

 

[thehog]

Here is what the good doctor has to say about it

I like Ferrari's assessments. He's a very astute and intelligent observer.

Pity he couldn't help injecting his cyclists with blood!

What I like about him is he readily points out when the data is lacking or insufficient to be 100% certain.

His VAM calculations disregard weight. Whilst he freely admits this he does like to use it.

 

[Ferminal]

Horner put in a big gear and just went full bore to the top on those, Froome was usually attacking, slowing then going again etc during his various duels.

So Horners times are always going to be better due the way he was riding, or more like time trialling uphill.

I dunno, it seems to work for Froome. All of his best performances have been a bit like that (probably with the exception of Bonascre).

 

[sublimit]

I dunno, it seems to work for Froome. All of his best performances have been a bit like that (probably with the exception of Bonascre).

Froome on Ventoux for sure. dunno about the others more like tactical stuff then going hard.

 

[thehog]

Froome on Ventoux for sure. dunno about the others more like tactical stuff then going hard.

Now contrast this with a Contador attack. Alberto was always good at accelerating but he would attack then slow back down to speed he was at previously or slower. Many times he’d attack for a chasing group to come back to him.

Froome is a different beast. At this year’s Tour he was attacking and just kept going.

One can draw their own conclusions from that...

 

[Ferminal]

Actually I'd say Froome and Contador are closer to each other than they are, say a Quintana.

 

[sublimit]

Now contrast this with a Contador attack. Alberto was always good at accelerating but he would attack then slow back down to speed he was at previously or slower. Many times he’d attack for a chasing group to come back to him.

Froome is a different beast. At this year’s Tour he was attacking and just kept going.

One can draw their own conclusions from that...

Until he got dragged back by Quintana then struggle then get shot out.
Horner on the other hand...

 

[thehog]

Actually I'd say Froome and Contador are closer to each other than they are, say a Quintana.

Quintana was a "chaser" at the Tour.

Valverde was leader.

Quintana didn't need the long range attack at Ax3.

He looked good at Ventoux but was held back before Valvere's demise.

At 53kg he should just wait. Attack at the base. The Sky train if in better organization next year will probably nullify him.

I need to study Contador more. See what he is doing. I’ve not paid enough attention.

 

[thehog]

Until he got dragged back by Quintana then struggle then get shot out.
Horner on the other hand...

Oh yeah. Horner is a joke.

Froome makes himself a joke but more by his history & stupid attacks and crazy power levels. Then you add in his ITT power and Froome on a pure a “LOL” level is the most ridiculous thing in cycling since Festnia were breaking around corners going up mountains.

So you have VAM, W/kg and theHog’s LOL.

LOL is the worst!

 

[the sceptic]

Oh yeah. Horner is a joke.

Froome makes himself a joke but more by his history & stupid attacks and crazy power levels. Then you add in his ITT power and Froome on a pure a “LOL” level is the most ridiculous thing in cycling since Festnia were breaking around corners going up mountains.

So you have VAM, W/kg and theHog’s LOL.

LOL is the worst!

He did have that 5th in the commonwealth games ITT, but Froomes time trial at this years tour was the biggest LOL moment I have seen since the likes of Heras and Pantani suddenly could get on the podium in the ITT.

Heras has the 2nd fastest ITT in a grand tour of all time I think , although I suspect a strong tailwind that day

 

[thehog]

He did have that 5th in the commonwealth games ITT, but Froomes time trial at this years tour was the biggest LOL moment I have seen since the likes of Heras and Pantani suddenly could get on the podium in the ITT.

Heras has the 2nd fastest ITT in a grand tour of all time I think , although I suspect a strong tailwind that day

For some a tailwind follows them on every climb.

In time someone is going to leak his pre-Vuelta 2011 numbers.

BikePure has them. Froome cut his ties with them when he became good.

Bike Pure — an advocacy group promoting clean racing — has removed Tour de France favorite Chris Froome (Sky) from its list of endorsed riders just days before the start of the race.

The spat comes as the group requested detailed performance numbers from Froome, such as power numbers, heart rate, and VO2 max, data that riders and teams typically are loath to release into the public domain.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/06/news/bike-pure-removes-froome-ahead-of-tour_292019

 

[Avoriaz]

BikePure has them. Froome cut his ties with them when he became good.

Actually BikePure cut their ties with Froome just prior to this year's Tour. They asked for numbers, and Froome passed on the mail/request to Sky management. They weren't forthcoming so Bike Pure took Froome off their page.

 

[del1962]

Hoggies hero Jan should join bike pure

 

[thehog]

Actually BikePure cut their ties with Froome just prior to this year's Tour. They asked for numbers, and Froome passed on the mail/request to Sky management. They weren't forthcoming so Bike Pure took Froome off their page.

Which is what I just said.

But they have his Barloworld numbers.

 

[thehog]

I like Ferrari's assessments. He's a very astute and intelligent observer.

Pity he couldn't help injecting his cyclists with blood!

What I like about him is he readily points out when the data is lacking or insufficient to be 100% certain.

His VAM calculations disregard weight. Whilst he freely admits this he does like to use it.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is the UKADA testing numbers on Froome and BSky riders.

Is there a link for UK riders and testing numbers?

This is not UCI testing but Fed testng.

Horner has been tested. A lot since reasoned decision.

USADA TESTING

2013 - 8 tests so far
2012 - 16 tests
2011 - 6
2010 - 7
2009 - 7
2008 - 3
2007 - 2
2006 - 1
2005 - 2

 

[Catwhoorg]

UK anti-doping does release summary stats, not by rider obviously.

Cycling related (year runs April - March)
Q1 2013-14
BCF 38 IC 41 OOC
CTT 17 IC
(Cycling Time trials - the governing body for time trial races in the UK)

2012-2013 Full year
BCF 101 IC 177 OOC

2011-2012
BCF 112 IC 197 OOC
UCI 9 IC 5 OOC

2010-2011
BCF 182 IC 304 OOC
UCI 12 IC 14 OOC

2009-2010
BCF 157 IC 290 OOC
UCI 0 IC 5 OOC


There are some USADA, UKAD requested tests, which don't specify sports (presumably intelligence led), plus some Olympic and paralympic testing which again isn't broken down.

 

[thehog]

UK anti-doping does release summary stats, not by rider obviously.

Cycling related (year runs April - March)
Q1 2013-14
BCF 38 IC 41 OOC
CTT 17 IC
(Cycling Time trials - the governing body for time trial races in the UK)

2012-2013 Full year
BCF 101 IC 177 OOC

2011-2012
BCF 112 IC 197 OOC
UCI 9 IC 5 OOC

2010-2011
BCF 182 IC 304 OOC
UCI 12 IC 14 OOC

2009-2010
BCF 157 IC 290 OOC
UCI 0 IC 5 OOC


There are some USADA, UKAD requested tests, which don't specify sports (presumably intelligence led), plus some Olympic and paralympic testing which again isn't broken down.

Many thanks.

Lack of transparency.

Can’t read much into the data unless I divide it up per number of cyclists.

Are these guys testing at all?

 

[D-Queued]

What I wouldn't mind seeing is the UKADA testing numbers on Froome and BSky riders.

Is there a link for UK riders and testing numbers?

This is not UCI testing but Fed testng.

Horner has been tested. A lot since reasoned decision.

USADA TESTING

2013 - 8 tests so far
2012 - 16 tests
2011 - 6
2010 - 7
2009 - 7
2008 - 3
2007 - 2
2006 - 1
2005 - 2

This has been discussed before.

The increase in 2012 is due to the fact that it was an Olympic year.

Dave.