"The Damiano who won the Giro no longer exists"

[blackcat]

Once again you confirm that your beliefs are unfalsifiable.

to win the white jersey in... 2006? He beat the former u23 tt winner, in the final tt

1 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) T-Mobile 1.07.45 (50.48 km/h)
2 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile 0.41
3 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak 1.11
4 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 2.40
5 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 3.18
6 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 3.35
7 Viatscheslav Ekimov (Rus) Discovery Channel 3.41
8 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto
9 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak 3.43
10 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 3.44
11 David Millar (GBr) Saunier Duval 4.01
12 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 4.03
13 Marcus Fothen (Ger) Gerolsteiner 4.15
14 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 4.16
15 Gustav Larsson (Swe) Francaise Des Jeux 4.21
16 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Cofidis 4.32
17 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 4.33
18 Nicolas Portal (Fra) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 4.35
19 Michael Rogers (Aus) T-Mobile
20 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 4.42
21 Stuart O'Grady (Aus) Team CSC 4.46
22 Christian Vandevelde (USA) Team CSC 4.52


sorry, but Cunego does not ride over the top of Fothen unless he is getting some help. Even if one makes the case for "better recovery in the third week of a GT" everyone knows that recovery in GTs is the function of one thing now.

Perhaps not 20 years back.

try again.

 

[Anonymous]

to win the white jersey in... 2006? He beat the former u23 tt winner, in the final tt
.............................................

19 Michael Rogers (Aus) T-Mobile
..............................................

sorry, but Cunego does not ride over the top of Fothen unless he is getting some help. Even if one makes the case for "better recovery in the third week of a GT" everyone knows that recovery in GTs is the function of one thing now.

Perhaps not 20 years back.

try again.

With that logic, everyone above 18th place must be assisted given a 3-time World TT champ came 19th...

I really don't think comparing a TT after 3 weeks hard racing, to a once-off TT in a worlds where the rider spends a month preparing is that simple..



On another note, I forgot to mention earlier that since Cunego/Lampre will not target GC anymore, I see no reason why Cunego can't target the mountains classifications in GTs. His Vuelta hill finish stage wins kept him up there in that competition...

 

[blackcat]

With that logic, everyone above 18th place must be assisted given a 3-time World TT champ came 19th...

I really don't think comparing a TT after 3 weeks hard racing, to a once-off TT in a worlds where the rider spends a month preparing is that simple..



On another note, I forgot to mention earlier that since Cunego/Lampre will not target GC anymore, I see no reason why Cunego can't target the mountains classifications in GTs. His Vuelta hill finish stage wins kept him up there in that competition...

dont be a muppet mountain goat.

I was talking white jersey, I was talking u23 tt champion.

Work out who I meant.

Marcus Fothen. They were going head to head for the white jersey. Rogers was 10th on GC. Those two both had incentive to go hammer for the white jersey in Paris.

I know why riders sit up and dont go au bloc in a chrono. On any given day there may only be half a dozen riders going for a time, in the final chrono in the GTs. The incentive is not there. It is the third week. They can taste the beet in their mouths for the wrap party in Milan, Paris or Madrid.

 

[ChrisE]

I've been saying this since he won that Giro. Until about 2007 the fanboys used to call me names. Then they stopped. I wonder why

He won a Grand Tour thanks to tactical and route circumstances that were a major coincidence and will likely never be repeated. Good for him, but it's pointless to insist. He's realized that just because he won the lottery once, he won't win it again no matter how hard he tries to.

Good for him that he's stopping the "I wanna be a GC guy" nonsense. By focusing solely on the classics, there's a chance he can become the world's number one at them. It's the same transition that worked well for both Rebellin and Bettini. They too did well as GC riders before they finally realised their strengths lay elsewhere.

Should be interesting to follow

Sheesh.

Somebody wins a GT in 2004 clean because of "tactical and route circumstances".

 

[issoisso]

Sheesh.

Somebody wins a GT in 2004 clean because of "tactical and route circumstances".

I never said he was clean.

And if you did watch or remeber that race, you know full well what I'm was referring to. Or should I elaborate?

 

[ChrisE]

I never said he was clean.

And if you did watch or remeber that race, you know full well what I'm was referring to. Or should I elaborate?

I'm sorry. I thought this thread was ripe with insinuation that Cunego is clean now as opposed to 2004. You posted the 2004 Giro was won due to the route and coincidence that will never be repeated. I took it from that you were insinuating he was clean and won due to circumstance. I must be wrong.

To clarify, do you think he won the 2004 giro clean? Or, do you think he was doped and even at that his talent does not enable him to win GT's consistently?

Regardless of his issues with Simoni and team tactics, I don't buy that was the only reason he won or looked as strong as he did in 2004. He won 3 or 4 stages.

 

[issoisso]

I'm sorry. I thought this thread was ripe with insinuation that Cunego is clean now as opposed to 2004. You posted the 2004 Giro was won due to the route and coincidence that will never be repeated. I took it from that you were insinuating he was clean and won due to circumstance. I must be wrong.

No worries

Or, do you think he was doped and even at that his talent does not enable him to win GT's consistently?

That's pretty much it, yes. Like Rebellin and Bettini, I think he can become much better in the classics, if only he can stop trying to go for GCs.

Regardless of his issues with Simoni and team tactics, I don't buy that was the only reason he won or looked as strong as he did in 2004. He won 3 or 4 stages.

The final climbs of that Giro tended to be easy. The contenders tended to come to the finish together. The one with the best sprint was always going to win....and Cunego is a much better sprinter than any of the others.

 

[blackcat]

but I think he could have ridden Simoni off his wheel that year. He was on a very good program. That was partly why Simoni was so unhappy with him. Little hypocritical I think.

 

[issoisso]

but I think he could have ridden Simoni off his wheel that year.

The only two mountain stages where they went head to head he got dropped pretty fast when they hit decent slopes. So, the reality was quite the opposite

 

[blackcat]

The only two mountain stages where they went head to head he got dropped pretty fast when they hit decent slopes. So, the reality was quite the opposite

what, when they were on the same team, and his orders were to let Simoni go.

Did not he win the final mtn top finish? In the kick? My memory is fuzzy.

When he had to defend in the final week, he was there. He may have lost time before, if Simoni was putative team leader, or he was conservative in pink.

I better go and check the reporting. Forgive the errors.

 

[blackcat]

team tactics
stage 3
1 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco 5.46.09
2 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Saeco 0.15
3 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi 0.16
4 Giuliano Figueras (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres
5 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Landbouwkrediet-Colnago
6 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Saeco 0.32
7 Gerhard Trampusch (Aut) Acqua & Sapone-Caffe Mokambo
8 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie 0.34
9 Dario David Cioni (Ita) Fassa Bortolo
10 Andrea Noe' (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi
11 Serguei Gontchar (Ukr) De Nardi
12 Wladimir Belli (Ita) Lampre 0.43
13 Pavel Tonkov (Rus) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie 0.55
14 Sven Montgomery (Swi) Gerolsteiner 0.57
15 Juan Manuel Garate Cepa (Spa) Lampre
16 Emanuele Sella (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres 0.59
17 Davide Rebellin (Ita) Gerolsteiner
18 Mauricio Al Ardila Cano (Col) Chocolade Jacques Wincor-Nixdorf 1.09

same time
1 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Saeco 5.26.25 (39.336 km/h)
2 Bradley McGee (Aus) FDJeux.com
3 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi
4 Giuliano Figueras (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres
5 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie 0.03
6 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco
7 Serguei Gontchar (Ukr) De Nardi
8 Andrea Noe' (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi
9 Wladimir Belli (Ita) Lampre
10 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Landbouwkrediet-Colnago
11 Sven Montgomery (Swi) Gerolsteiner 0.07
12 Dario David Cioni (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 0.11
13 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) Phonak Hearing Systems
14 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Saeco 0.16
15 Emanuele Sella (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres 0.33
16 Christophe Brandt (Bel) Lotto-Domo 0.36
17 Cristian Moreni (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi 0.38
18 Luis Filipe Laverde Jimenez (Col) Formaggi Pinzolo Fiave' 0.43
19 David Canada Gracia (Spa) Saunier Duval-Prodir
20 Ruben Lobato Elvira (Spa) Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.47
21 Steve Zampieri (Swi) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie 1.36

break, and Cunego pulled when all Saeco were gone bar Simoni
stage 11
Emanuele Sella (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres 5.19.08
2 Cristian Moreni (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi 0.30
3 Steve Zampieri (Swi) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie
4 Bo Hamburger (Den) Acqua & Sapone-Caffe Mokambo
5 Ruben Lobato Elvira (Spa) Saunier Duval-Prodir
6 Juan Manuel Garate Cepa (Spa) Lampre
7 Francisco Vila Errandonea (Spa) Lampre
8 Alexandre Moos (Swi) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.49
9 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Saeco
10 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Landbouwkrediet-Colnago
11 Bradley McGee (Aus) FDJeux.com
12 Giuliano Figueras (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres
13 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi
14 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco

solo win
stage 16
1 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Saeco 6.11.23 (34.573 km/h)
2 Rinaldo Nocentini (Ita) Acqua & Sapone-Caffe Mokambo 1.16
3 Alexandre Moos (Swi) Phonak Hearing Systems 1.38
4 Raffaele Illiano (Ita) Colombia-Selle Italia
5 Giuseppe Di Grande (Ita) Formaggi Pinzolo Fiave'
6 Julio A. Perez Cuapio (Mex) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres
7 Christophe Brandt (Bel) Lotto-Domo
8 Luis Filipe Laverde Jimenez (Col) Formaggi Pinzolo Fiave' 1.58
9 Ruggero Marzoli (Ita) Acqua & Sapone-Caffe Mokambo 2.29
10 Giuliano Figueras (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres
11 Rubens Bertogliati (Swi) Saunier Duval-Prodir
12 Serguei Gontchar (Ukr) De Nardi 2.39
13 Wladimir Belli (Ita) Lampre
14 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco

stage 17
Pavel Tonkov (Rus) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie 3.40.05 (41.711 km/h)
2 Alessandro Bertolini (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi 2.15
3 Bradley McGee (Aus) FDJeux.com 2.49
4 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Saeco
5 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi
6 Ruggero Marzoli (Ita) Acqua & Sapone-Caffe Mokambo
7 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie
8 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Landbouwkrediet-Colnago
9 Emanuele Sella (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres

stage 18
1 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Saeco 3.56.31 (29.934 km/h)
2 Dario David Cioni (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 0.05
3 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) De Nardi
4 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco 0.09
5 Julio A. Perez Cuapio (Mex) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres 0.17
6 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Saeco 0.35
7 Juan Manuel Garate Cepa (Spa) Lampre
8 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Landbouwkrediet-Colnago 0.41
9 Wladimir Belli (Ita) Lampre
10 Andrea Noe' (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi 0.43
11 Bradley McGee (Aus) FDJeux.com 1.00
12 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) Phonak Hearing Systems 1.11
13 Emanuele Sella (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres 1.16

tried to work over Honchar, I dont think he was dropped
team tactics
1 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie 3.52.16 (31.515 km/h)
2 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco 0.02
3 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.23
4 Dario David Cioni (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 0.52
5 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Saeco
6 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Saeco 1.23
7 Pavel Tonkov (Rus) Vini Caldirola-Nobili Rubinetterie
8 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) De Nardi
9 Bradley McGee (Aus) FDJeux.com 1.43
10 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi
11 Wladimir Belli (Ita) Lampre
12 Juan Manuel Garate Cepa (Spa) Lampre
13 Julio A. Perez Cuapio (Mex) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres 1.51
14 Emanuele Sella (Ita) Ceramiche Panaria-Margres
stage 19

 

[blackcat]

issoisso, think my memory was pretty accurate.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

As I recall, that was a fun Giro to watch. But it seemed a lack of tactical freedom hurt Simoni as much as anything else. Hence, had they been on different teams, most believe Gibo would have come away with the victory.

Back to the original topic, I agree that was a once in a lifetime thing, and he won't win, or likely podium, in another GT. He could win something like Romandie or Tirreno if the stars lined up, but more likely he'll be a one-day or classics racer, who could end up #1 in the world.

 

[Angliru]

What I remember is early in that year's Giro when leadership of Saeco was still in doubt, Cunego attacked in the mountains, Simoni responded and eventually dropped him. I can't recall which stage (I'll gladly review the video!). When Cunego did attack later, the opposition were all marking Simoni.
Simoni sat back and let Cunego get his moment(s) of glory until it became clear that Cunego and Saeco management had decided to support the young gun and not the defending Giro champion. Simoni's hands were tied at this point and Cunego had an insurmountable advantage time wise with a less than challenging parcours making Simoni's chances of overtaking him close to impossible. Of course my perspective is likely skewed because I was likely cursing Cunego's name at the time of my initial viewing, my being an admirer of Simoni and all.

 

[pmcg76]

he also won the white jersey in the Tour, and when Frank won Alpe d'Huez he beat Cunego in the last km.

He has shown alot since the Giro, just not as consistent as a guy on a big program. I reckon he is on a small maintenance program.

Basso is on a medium program, Cunego just maintenance.

Blackcat, I would really love for you to explain what the big, medium and small doping programme entails.

Also the psychology of switching from a big programme to a small programme and why not a medium programme. Seriously, if you are successful on the big programme, why would you downgrade, you would be an idiot especially if you were never caught and there are still guys winning on the big programme. I dont get it, "Hey, my name is Damiano Cunego, I used to dope big-time before and was super successful but now I only dope small-time and I am less successful because..............."

You have to provide the answer with psychological analysis.

 

[ChrisE]

As I recall, that was a fun Giro to watch. But it seemed a lack of tactical freedom hurt Simoni as much as anything else. Hence, had they been on different teams, most believe Gibo would have come away with the victory.

Back to the original topic, I agree that was a once in a lifetime thing, and he won't win, or likely podium, in another GT. He could win something like Romandie or Tirreno if the stars lined up, but more likely he'll be a one-day or classics racer, who could end up #1 in the world.

Simoni tried to get away on the last two mountain stages, and couldn't take the necessary time. Especially to Bormio 2000 when it was obvious Gibo didn't have it. No way he would've come away with easy victory if he wasn't on Lampre. Cunego may have ridden differently as well on another team, and he appeared stronger.

You know, if I had to I would bet Cunego was doped in 2004 with this GT and the wins leading up to it, but I must admit of all the current riders Cunego intrigues me the most when it comes to doping. His inconsistency since 2004 makes me think he may have been clean since then.

In 2004 I am not so sure Simoni was dirty. I doubt Simoni would run his mouth about Basso in 2006 if he was on the sauce. When did he get off? The difference in 2003 to 2004 Gibo maybe leads to it being at that time.

The 2004 Giro may have been a perfect storm. No top level competition, especially TTer's that could climb, a cleaner than normal Gibo, and an on form Cunego with a natural crit of 51. It wasn't team tactics, else Gibo would've taken the jersey in one of the last two mountain stages. We will never know.

 

[blackcat]

Simoni also meeted allegations at Schleck in 2007, off the record. Andy.

 

[issoisso]

issoisso, think my memory was pretty accurate.

Allow me to disagree

Before stage 16 Cunego was a domestique....then on that stage he took off on a break, which was team tactics, to make the others chase. But nobody chased much, as he wasn't considered a contender. So he won a bunch of time that won him the Giro.

After that, he managed to hang on to the jersey as the Giro's course wasn't really that hard.


Stage 17 the stage wasn't selective enough, every contender came to the finish together with a bunch of non-contenders.

Stage 18, Simoni was hamstrung by not being allowed to attack the maglia rosa, and everyone else was too scared of the Saeco train, so nobody went for it and the gaps only appeared in the final sprint to the line, where Cunego was always going to win.

Stage 19 had some real climbs, and as soon as they hit the Mortirolo, Cunego was dropped even by guys like Wegelius and Gonchar. Simoni was up the road (he hadn't started the attack, he had followed it), and at this point he decided to continue the attack and screw team orders.

By the top of the Vivione Simoni was well ahead. (EDIT: I went searching for the race report from 2004. They were a full two minutes ahead at that point)

But after the Vivione was a long descent and flat....and the Saeco train was all working for Cunego, so they brought Simoni back to a decent manageable gap.

Simoni won more time on the "easy" final climb, but that climb just wasn't hard enough, so he didn't get much of an advantage.

And that was it. Simoni had one stage in which to gain time on Cunego, but with Tonti, Mazzoleni, Spezialetti and the rest of the Saeco train in full form working against him, he was never going to gain the three minutes he needed.


Now, I won't debate that Cunego was a worthy winner. He took advantage of the circumstances (team tactics and the easiest Giro route I've ever seen) to take the lead and hold it. Well done for him. He won it, so he's the worthy winner.

What I do debate is your claim that Cunego could've ridden Simoni off his wheel. That simply didn't happen

(Unless you count sprints, in which case you're absolutely correct )

 

[ludwig]

Allow me to disagree
Now, I won't debate that Cunego was a worthy winner. He took advantage of the circumstances (team tactics and the easiest Giro route I've ever seen) to take the lead and hold it. Well done for him. He won it, so he's the worthy winner.

What I do debate is your claim that Cunego could've ridden Simoni off his wheel. That simply didn't happen

(Unless you count sprints, in which case you're absolutely correct )

I would disagree I think. I watched that Giro and it seemed like Cunego was the strongest on several occasions. Unfortunately drama dictated that Cunego and Simoni never actually went mano y mano. The one stage where the team set up Simoni to win, Gonchar/Cioni chased Gilberto down and Cunego took the sprint. On Stage 19, Simoni escaped with Garzelli but couldn't make any real headway; Cunego probably could have attacked to bag that stage too but instead followed Cioni's wheel out of deference to Simoni's ambitions. I guess there was probably a point when Saeco was chasing Simoni down in that.... but my memory is Cioni's team was leading that chase and Cunego was staying with Mazzoleni.

Competition was relatively light at this Giro. No major outsiders. Anyway, Cunego was the strongest. The team gave Simoni several opportunities to attack and he was consistently outshone by Cunego, Cioni, Garzelli, Gonchar etc. I think if there had been steeper climbs Cunego would have won by a larger margin.

 

[issoisso]

The one stage where the team set up Simoni to win, Gonchar/Cioni chased Gilberto down and Cunego took the sprint.

I'm afraid you're confusing that stage with some other one
Simoni didn't attack. He politely followed the wheels of the Saeco train until the end of the stage.

Simoni was allowed to escape with Garzelli but couldn't make any real headway; Cunego probably could have attacked to bag that stage too but instead followed Cioni's wheel out of deference to Simoni's ambitions.

Ehm?

Cunego even said at the end of the stage that he asked Mazzoleni to slow down or he'd have been dropped. He certainly couldn't have attacked. He was dropped by everyone but his teammates and Cioni.

Cioni wasn't there, he was dropped. He got back on the descent before the final climb (being a former mountain biker who was renowned for his descending skills)

 

[Escarabajo]

I would disagree I think. I watched that Giro and it seemed like Cunego was the strongest on several occasions. Unfortunately drama dictated that Cunego and Simoni never actually went mano y mano. The one stage where the team set up Simoni to win, Gonchar/Cioni chased Gilberto down and Cunego took the sprint. On Stage 19, Simoni escaped with Garzelli but couldn't make any real headway; Cunego probably could have attacked to bag that stage too but instead followed Cioni's wheel out of deference to Simoni's ambitions. I guess there was probably a point when Saeco was chasing Simoni down in that.... but my memory is Cioni's team was leading that chase and Cunego was staying with Mazzoleni.

Competition was relatively light at this Giro. No major outsiders. Anyway, Cunego was the strongest. The team gave Simoni several opportunities to attack and he was consistently outshone by Cunego, Cioni, Garzelli, Gonchar etc. I think if there had been steeper climbs Cunego would have won by a larger margin.

+1.

I watched that Giro on tape, which sometimes I keep watching, and I have to agree with you on this. Cunego was the strongest. Simoni did not seem to have it either. That stage in which Cunego took off and made like 4 minutes was spectacular for him. He looked like a doped rider. I think after that stage everybody in Italy was crowning him with the new future of Italian cycling.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ludwig]

I'm afraid you're confusing that stage with some other one
Simoni didn't attack. He politely followed the wheels of the Saeco train until the end of the stage.

The stage I was talking about was Stage 18, where Saeco chased down Garzelli and then launched Simoni, but the other contenders chased him down.

Cunego even said at the end of the stage that he asked Mazzoleni to slow down or he'd have been dropped. He certainly couldn't have attacked. He was dropped by everyone but his teammates and Cioni.

Cioni wasn't there, he was dropped. He got back on the descent before the final climb (being a former mountain biker who was renowned for his descending skills)

You're talking about Stage 19 right? See
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/giro04/?id=results/livecomp19

For most of the escape, Mazz and Cunego sat on wheels while Cioni and Gonchar wore their teams and themselves out, and on the final hill Cunego followed Cioni's wheel and they dropped Popo and Gonchar.

Anyway, both my memory and the live report have Gonchar leading the way all the way up the Vivone and Cunego sitting on his wheel. It was Popo's attack on the descent that closed the gap. It was spectacular--daredevil descending in the most beautiful scenery imaginable. Both Cunego and Popo nearly crashed.

Simoni wasn't stronger than Cunego on any stage. I think Simoni probably would have found a way to beat Gonchar if Cunego hadn't been racing, but Cunego was the strongest Saeco.

 

[filipo]

This back-and-forth is really great, depending as it does on each person's viewing of the race. Thanks, guys, for the discussion.

It's so interesting that I went back to G Watson's photos from that race -- and while it's unfortunate that half the stages are missing (Watson went to rub his hardon for Lance at the Tour de Langeac de Cocteau Puisse or whatever), the photos from the remaining stages are hilarious to me.

Stage 17: Why, there's Mazzoleni (doper) leading Gonchar (doper)! And there's Garzelli (doper) and Illiano (doper) and -- oh! nice shot of World Champ Astarloa (doper) descending.

Stage 18: Patxi Vila (doper) leading Cristian Moreni (doper)! Mazzoleni (doper) again... Sella (doper)...

It goes on like this, but you get the point.

 

[ludwig]

Blackcat, I would really love for you to explain what the big, medium and small doping programme entails.

Also the psychology of switching from a big programme to a small programme and why not a medium programme. Seriously, if you are successful on the big programme, why would you downgrade, you would be an idiot especially if you were never caught and there are still guys winning on the big programme. I dont get it, "Hey, my name is Damiano Cunego, I used to dope big-time before and was super successful but now I only dope small-time and I am less successful because..............."

You have to provide the answer with psychological analysis.

The answer is because he's worried about getting busted. Think of every other major Italian stage racer and/or classics winner besides Cunego. Chances are, they have been busted or caught up in a scandal in the last 5 years. Ricco, Piepoli, Savo, Mazzoleni, Di Luca, Garzelli, Rebellin, Scarponi, Basso, Sella and on and on and on. It's not about being stupid, it's about being smart. It's about playing it safe and preserving what he has.

That said, I don't agree with Blackcat that the likely explanation is downgrading programs...that explanation doesn't jive with Cunego's (consistently strong) performances. I think he is targeting races other than the Giro and the Tour, where the scrutiny (from the media, the vampires, and the police) is the highest. Instead he targets the classics, short stage races like Tour de Suisse, and this year he went for some Vuelta stages in preparation for his World's campaign.

Like other cyclists/teams, he is concerned about his image and doesn't want to get greedy and blow the lid off his fine career.

 

[blackcat]

This back-and-forth is really great, depending as it does on each person's viewing of the race. Thanks, guys, for the discussion.

It's so interesting that I went back to G Watson's photos from that race -- and while it's unfortunate that half the stages are missing (Watson went to rub his hardon for Lance at the Tour de Langeac de Cocteau Puisse or whatever), the photos from the remaining stages are hilarious to me.

Stage 17: Why, there's Mazzoleni (doper) leading Gonchar (doper)! And there's Garzelli (doper) and Illiano (doper) and -- oh! nice shot of World Champ Astarloa (doper) descending.

Stage 18: Patxi Vila (doper) leading Cristian Moreni (doper)! Mazzoleni (doper) again... Sella (doper)...

It goes on like this, but you get the point.

but dont name and allude to any anglophone, they dont dope

The answer is because he's worried about getting busted. Think of every other major Italian stage racer and/or classics winner besides Cunego. Chances are, they have been busted or caught up in a scandal in the last 5 years. Ricco, Piepoli, Savo, Mazzoleni, Di Luca, Garzelli, Rebellin, Scarponi, Basso, Sella and on and on and on. It's not about being stupid, it's about being smart. It's about playing it safe and preserving what he has.

That said, I don't agree with Blackcat that the likely explanation is downgrading programs...that explanation doesn't jive with Cunego's (consistently strong) performances. I think he is targeting races other than the Giro and the Tour, where the scrutiny (from the media, the vampires, and the police) is the highest. Instead he targets the classics, short stage races like Tour de Suisse, and this year he went for some Vuelta stages in preparation for his World's campaign.

Like other cyclists/teams, he is concerned about his image and doesn't want to get greedy and blow the lid off his fine career.

ludwig, you reckon Cunego is on the heavy program still? I do concern myself with Gilbert, that guy goes on a tear, but he has this strictly milky white Anglophone type reputation like Wiggins. I dont know if a rider can be that good and win the monuments in the back end of the season.