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"The Damiano who won the Giro no longer exists"

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ludwig said:
The answer is because he's worried about getting busted. Think of every other major Italian stage racer and/or classics winner besides Cunego. Chances are, they have been busted or caught up in a scandal in the last 5 years. Ricco, Piepoli, Savo, Mazzoleni, Di Luca, Garzelli, Rebellin, Scarponi, Basso, Sella and on and on and on. It's not about being stupid, it's about being smart. It's about playing it safe and preserving what he has.

That said, I don't agree with Blackcat that the likely explanation is downgrading programs...that explanation doesn't jive with Cunego's (consistently strong) performances. I think he is targeting races other than the Giro and the Tour, where the scrutiny (from the media, the vampires, and the police) is the highest. Instead he targets the classics, short stage races like Tour de Suisse, and this year he went for some Vuelta stages in preparation for his World's campaign.

Like other cyclists/teams, he is concerned about his image and doesn't want to get greedy and blow the lid off his fine career.

Still dont cut it with me, why is Cunego the only one that is scared, why not Contador, Schlecks, Lance, Wiggins, Nibali who is Italian. Do you believe they are still on the big doping scale?? You quoted a lot of Italians which is true, some who were caught, others who were just linked to affairs(Puerto, Oil for drugs) holy crap, Garzelli was 7-8 years ago.

According to your logic a load of non-Italians, especially Spainards should be equally scared after Puerto, Kazakhs, Vino, Kash, Fofonov all caught, what about US riders, Hamilton, Landis, the stories around Lance, surely there is no way Lance would have taken a chance to dope this year with all the accusations surrounding him and he finished on the Tour podium. To me, there is simply no consistent logic in your argument that only Cunego is scared.

I know if I was that scared of getting caught, I would be going clean, not just downgrading my doping programme. That would be more logical and consistent with his performances this year. Your also still ignoring the circumstances of his victories at the Vuelta, we have been over this before. The day before he won on La Pandera, he was in the gruppeto that finished 40 minutes down and then got in the break to La Pandera.

I am also still waiting on Blackcat to explain the differences between the various doping levels and why he keeps referring to the Garmin A-team when it seems to consist of 2 max 3 riders. When you say team, it sounds like a lot of guys when it just seems to be Wiggins, Vandevelde and maybe Farrar, hardly a team.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Still dont cut it with me, why is Cunego the only one that is scared, why not Contador, Schlecks, Lance, Wiggins, Nibali who is Italian. Do you believe they are still on the big doping scale?? You quoted a lot of Italians which is true, some who were caught, others who were just linked to affairs(Puerto, Oil for drugs) holy crap, Garzelli was 7-8 years ago.

According to your logic a load of non-Italians, especially Spainards should be equally scared after Puerto, Kazakhs, Vino, Kash, Fofonov all caught, what about US riders, Hamilton, Landis, the stories around Lance, surely there is no way Lance would have taken a chance to dope this year with all the accusations surrounding him and he finished on the Tour podium. To me, there is simply no consistent logic in your argument that only Cunego is scared.

I know if I was that scared of getting caught, I would be going clean, not just downgrading my doping programme. That would be more logical and consistent with his performances this year. Your also still ignoring the circumstances of his victories at the Vuelta, we have been over this before. The day before he won on La Pandera, he was in the gruppeto that finished 40 minutes down and then got in the break to La Pandera.

I am also still waiting on Blackcat to explain the differences between the various doping levels and why he keeps referring to the Garmin A-team when it seems to consist of 2 max 3 riders. When you say team, it sounds like a lot of guys when it just seems to be Wiggins, Vandevelde and maybe Farrar, hardly a team.

some of what I consider the "A" team did not ride the Tour. Look at riders that win or podium GC in 2.HC classification races. Top 10's in monuments. Riding 3 GTs.

They were one of the 4 most successful teams this year imo.

Astana, Saxo, Columbia, then Garmin in my opinion. They were the four best teams. They had the second best sprinter, and two of the top 10 GC riders. Plus a wealth of depth, three riders who were not at the Tour have manifest class.

Garmin are a gun team, lot to admire, but not the duplicity wrt their branding and communications strategy. That is BS my friends.
 
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blackcat said:
but dont name and allude to any anglophone, they dont dope.

Sorry, cat -- I was only referring to the riders I saw in those specific stage photos, and to riders that have been officially sanctioned. Not sure who you're referring to, but I didn't intentionally leave anyone out.
 
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filipo said:
Sorry, cat -- I was only referring to the riders I saw in those specific stage photos, and to riders that have been officially sanctioned. Not sure who you're referring to, but I didn't intentionally leave anyone out.

was generic, not a specific response to you filipo, I dig your posts
 
May 18, 2009
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News Flash!

I have changed my avatar from my wife to Megan Fox. I want to prove issososiiso cannot get VD from looking at her.

Plus, I wish to be taken off of TFF ignore list due to his aversion to looking at my wife. I assume that is because he is jealous.

Oh yeah, Cunego was doped in 2004.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Still dont cut it with me, why is Cunego the only one that is scared, why not Contador, Schlecks, Lance, Wiggins, Nibali who is Italian. Do you believe they are still on the big doping scale?? You quoted a lot of Italians which is true, some who were caught, others who were just linked to affairs(Puerto, Oil for drugs) holy crap, Garzelli was 7-8 years ago.

Smart, not necessarily scared. He's building up his fan base with this clean tatoo thing, but he knows that if he finishes high up on a GC he'll be associated with doping. The evidence of pervasive doping is too damning, when you consider how many busts there have been in the last few years.

Also consider that CONI seems to be about as serious as any organization about cracking down on doping. When they interviewed Scarponi and Basso, they were apparently genuinely appalled that these guys feared bodily harm over spilling the beans over omerta. Italian riders don't seem to have the protections afforded to a CSC or Shack or Garmin rider...there is no Italian team with those kinds of connections, and certainly not Lampre. It's no coincidence that every other major Italian contender has been screwed over by the vampires and the agencies... Cunego doesn't want to end up like them.

It's about being smart, about being modest, about recognizing this period of cycling for what it is. 2006-08 have been tumultuous years, no doubt about it. Can you think of any other period when there were so many doping busts and doping stories? In this period, the practically every rider who finished on a GT Top 10 since 1992 was implicated to be either doping or closely connected to doping. So if Cunego wants to be considered clean, then he knows he has no business finishing high up on a Grand Tour.

Who knows what's motivates him. What we can say is he is avoiding competing for the GC at the Giro and the Tour. Yet he is winning races that are populated by dopers. This is real life, not a fairy tale--there are reasons for why things happen. For the most part, riders peak when they want to peak...consider the possibility that Cunego knows perfectly well how to prepare for races and that he had no intention of contesting the Giro--he was after the Classics and the Worlds.

I know if I was that scared of getting caught, I would be going clean, not just downgrading my doping programme. That would be more logical and consistent with his performances this year. Your also still ignoring the circumstances of his victories at the Vuelta, we have been over this before. The day before he won on La Pandera, he was in the gruppeto that finished 40 minutes down and then got in the break to La Pandera.

Going clean would be the end of his career. He couldn't rack up the kind of results he bagged this year (Amstel, high up at Suisse, multiple Vuelta stages and high finishes) clean. Nobody is going to pay him big bucks to ride clean. How can you say with any confidence that his performances are that of a clean rider when the evidence of omerta and endemic doping is so strong? Are the dopers letting him win because he's handsome? The only concrete evidence that offered that this or that cyclist may be riding clean is they are getting slightly less results than before. But with Cunego, that isn't even true--the only thing he is lacking is high Giro finishes, otherwise this year was just as strong as any in his career besides 2004.

If Cunego was clean, his performances would be more like Oscar Pereiro or Tom Danielson in 2008. You see where I'm going with this....in the grupetto. There is no precedent for a clean rider winning major Classics in the recent past. So if Cunego is doing it clean, then he possesses something strikingly unique.

As for the Vuelta, it's par for the course for mountain stage hunters to sandbag a stage to increase one's chances of winning the one they are targeting. See Piepoli's career--before his dramatic career-ending flourish at the Giro and the Tour, he was a Vuelta stage hunter. Rasmussen specialized in the same kind of thing. I know it sounds cynical, but for my money any rider who was capable of hanging with Valverde and Sanchez in the Vuelta mountains is 'preparing' himself professionally.
 
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ChrisE said:
News Flash!

I have changed my avatar from my wife to Megan Fox. I want to prove issososiiso cannot get VD from looking at her.

Plus, I wish to be taken off of TFF ignore list due to his aversion to looking at my wife. I assume that is because he is jealous.

Oh yeah, Cunego was doped in 2004.

I prefer the pic or scene of her in transformers when she is cleaning the bike:);) Phuck she is hot.
 
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auscyclefan94 said:
So ludwig, your saying he's trying to not finish high on gc in a grand tour so he's not linked to doping? That's absurd.

Not exactly. I'm speculating that he's targeting races where there is less liklihood of a bust that ruins his career. That's not to deny that perhaps Cunego is developing into a racer who only targets one days or who can't perform well in 3 week races.

What I would contest is the idea that Cunego performing less well at the Giro and the Tour is an indication that he is clean. I think if you examine this reasoning closely one finds it is based on wishful thinking and nothing more. Cunego continues to dominate in other races where there is no less if not more doping going on--that indicates that he is either doping like the rest of the competition, or is blessed by a higher power with God-like bike prowess. Either way, fear of getting busted is just one of many possible explanations for why a rider Cunego would choose not to target the Giro or the Tour. He would not be the first.
 
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ludwig is also alluding to a compromise on objectives and a strategy. When a rider falls outside the top 5, a better result is a stage win, or holding a jersey for a day.

Cunego can much better achieve a stage result, with lesser risk, and greater reward, than trying to ride for overall. He just needs a selective stage where a break goes. A flat stage where a break goes at the Tour, between stage 15 and 20, will split and fracture, so tactics and luck plays a result. If a stage ends in a small field sprint with all of the Ardennes punchy riders, Cunego will pump them in a sprint, unless Valverde is in that finish.
 
A

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ChrisE said:
News Flash!

I have changed my avatar from my wife to Megan Fox. I want to prove issososiiso cannot get VD from looking at her.

Plus, I wish to be taken off of TFF ignore list due to his aversion to looking at my wife. I assume that is because he is jealous.

Oh yeah, Cunego was doped in 2004.

Cunego was doped? Nah can't be him because he was so young and Italiano!

You thinking about that carnie midget Diluca, he was mos def on the hotsauce.

Nice avaTARD, She likes her some "RED LOBSTER"
 
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Riley Martin said:
Cunego was doped? Nah can't be him because he was so young and Italiano!

You thinking about that carnie midget Diluca, he was mos def on the hotsauce.

Nice avaTARD, She likes her some "RED LOBSTER"

I just regurgitated at red lobster.
 
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auscyclefan94 said:
Chirs E make your avatar the pic of her in transformers washing the bike. :p

No way. The ones I found by GIS is her straddling the seat, leaning forward, wiping the gas tank.

That just pushes my moral envelope a little too much. There is some transformation taking place in the lower regions when I look at that pic.
 
ludwig said:
Smart, not necessarily scared. He's building up his fan base with this clean tatoo thing, but he knows that if he finishes high up on a GC he'll be associated with doping. The evidence of pervasive doping is too damning, when you consider how many busts there have been in the last few years.

Also consider that CONI seems to be about as serious as any organization about cracking down on doping. When they interviewed Scarponi and Basso, they were apparently genuinely appalled that these guys feared bodily harm over spilling the beans over omerta. Italian riders don't seem to have the protections afforded to a CSC or Shack or Garmin rider...there is no Italian team with those kinds of connections, and certainly not Lampre. It's no coincidence that every other major Italian contender has been screwed over by the vampires and the agencies... Cunego doesn't want to end up like them.

It's about being smart, about being modest, about recognizing this period of cycling for what it is. 2006-08 have been tumultuous years, no doubt about it. Can you think of any other period when there were so many doping busts and doping stories? In this period, the practically every rider who finished on a GT Top 10 since 1992 was implicated to be either doping or closely connected to doping. So if Cunego wants to be considered clean, then he knows he has no business finishing high up on a Grand Tour.

Who knows what's motivates him. What we can say is he is avoiding competing for the GC at the Giro and the Tour. Yet he is winning races that are populated by dopers. This is real life, not a fairy tale--there are reasons for why things happen. For the most part, riders peak when they want to peak...consider the possibility that Cunego knows perfectly well how to prepare for races and that he had no intention of contesting the Giro--he was after the Classics and the Worlds.



Going clean would be the end of his career. He couldn't rack up the kind of results he bagged this year (Amstel, high up at Suisse, multiple Vuelta stages and high finishes) clean. Nobody is going to pay him big bucks to ride clean. How can you say with any confidence that his performances are that of a clean rider when the evidence of omerta and endemic doping is so strong? Are the dopers letting him win because he's handsome? The only concrete evidence that offered that this or that cyclist may be riding clean is they are getting slightly less results than before. But with Cunego, that isn't even true--the only thing he is lacking is high Giro finishes, otherwise this year was just as strong as any in his career besides 2004.

If Cunego was clean, his performances would be more like Oscar Pereiro or Tom Danielson in 2008. You see where I'm going with this....in the grupetto. There is no precedent for a clean rider winning major Classics in the recent past. So if Cunego is doing it clean, then he possesses something strikingly unique.

As for the Vuelta, it's par for the course for mountain stage hunters to sandbag a stage to increase one's chances of winning the one they are targeting. See Piepoli's career--before his dramatic career-ending flourish at the Giro and the Tour, he was a Vuelta stage hunter. Rasmussen specialized in the same kind of thing. I know it sounds cynical, but for my money any rider who was capable of hanging with Valverde and Sanchez in the Vuelta mountains is 'preparing' himself professionally.

Still way too many inconsistencies in your argument, you make it sound like people are only caught at the GTs. Firstly many of the Italians you named in your initial list were not caught at GTs. Basso, Scarponi were Puerto, Mazzoleni, Di Luca were initially implicated in Oil for Drugs and Rebellin was busted at the Olympics, he hardly ever rode the GTs but was still busted.

Last year, Cunego specifically based his season on the Tour and finished well down beaten by French guys. Do you think the French guys are on the big programme that Cunego is supposedly on or was he just sandbagging as you suggest after talking himself up all season. If he didnt want to run the risk at the GTs, surely we would just say I am not doing the GTs anymore and focus on the classics a la Rebellin, like many have suggested the last few years.

I personally dont think the French guys are on big programmes but are capable of winning Tour stages, if they can do it, why not Cunego or many other riders. I think Cunego has had a less successful season than last year, he didnt win a classic, nowhere at the Giro, the 2 stage wins at the Vuelta were the highlighs. Maybe you disagree on the French doping less, I dont know.

We have been over this debate before on how we view doping so not going through it all again. I think we politely agree to disagree on our approach.

In all seriousness, I want to know what Blackcat and yourself consider the different levels of doping. I have asked on a few occasions for an explanation and not yet received an explanation. I am going to assume the big programme is Blood Transfusions, EPO/Cera, Gene Doping, HGH. Now I want to know what the lesser programme consists of, different drugs or just less of the big ones. Anybody out there can offer their own views as this is just out of personal interest.

Do you guys think the biological passport has had any impact on giving cleaner riders a better chance of competing with the bigger dopers.

One last note, 'Mr Clean' Christophe Bassons won a stage at the Dauphine Libere in 1999. How on earth did he manage that as according to the prevailing logic here, that is totally impossible so would love an explanation on that one.
 

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pmcg76 said:
One last note, 'Mr Clean' Christophe Bassons won a stage at the Dauphine Libere in 1999. How on earth did he manage that as according to the prevailing logic here, that is totally impossible so would love an explanation on that one.

No one chased him. Vino had the overall locked up. Lance wanted to chase him down, but Vaughters was too wasted and barely had the energy to hold his place much less engage in the type of vindictive behavior which fuels wonder boy.

I don't know what your stance is on drugs, but unless they're completely eradicated, cycling is more of a circus than an athletic competition. It doesn't mean much to win, the drugs just make you a completely different person.

I've taken a number of PED's recreationally, and mentally and physically they give you a tremendous boost. My last one was a provigil aka modafinil. I took a half of one last week and had the same experience as Andre Agassi taking crystal meth. If you need to spend hours cleaning your house, take one of these things and your focus is just unbelievable. No jitters either. Maybe I'm just a super responder:), but how fair is that. On top of that, it was just recently banned in 2004.

How anyone can give cycling performances any credibility in this day and age is beyond me.
 
buckwheat said:
I don't know what your stance is on drugs, but unless they're completely eradicated, cycling is more of a circus than an athletic competition. It doesn't mean much to win, the drugs just make you a completely different person...

How anyone can give cycling performances any credibility in this day and age is beyond me.

bingo.

+1.

agreed 100%.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Still way too many inconsistencies in your argument, you make it sound like people are only caught at the GTs. Firstly many of the Italians you named in your initial list were not caught at GTs. Basso, Scarponi were Puerto, Mazzoleni, Di Luca were initially implicated in Oil for Drugs and Rebellin was busted at the Olympics, he hardly ever rode the GTs but was still busted.

I think these examples bolster my point more than rebut it. Obviously the Olympics carry a higher level of scrutiny on doping then you would see in a classic, so it's not surprising to see Rebellin (and Hamilton, and Schumacher?) get busted there. If dopers aren't caught by the police, then the next likeliest place to be caught is at either GTs (specifically the Giro and Tour) or some big-time event like the Olympics.

Last year, Cunego specifically based his season on the Tour and finished well down beaten by French guys. Do you think the French guys are on the big programme that Cunego is supposedly on or was he just sandbagging as you suggest after talking himself up all season. If he didnt want to run the risk at the GTs, surely we would just say I am not doing the GTs anymore and focus on the classics a la Rebellin, like many have suggested the last few years.

No, I don't believe Cunego targeting the Tour was anything more than hype. He got great results in April (Amstel, Primavera, Vasco), at Suisse (4th overall) and in the Fall (Worlds, Lombardia)...basically the same program as this year.

The essence of the issue is that doping and doping programmes are part of the overall strategy and tactics of cycling. It's not always smart to overdo it...and winning isn't everything. There is always an element of risk involved in any doping strategy. So these strats are constantly evolving. I have no idea whether Cunego is on the 'heavy' program....my opinion is that if the major Vuelta contenders and mountain Classics specialists are still on advanced blood doping programs, then Cunego probably is as well.

I think where your reasoning goes awry is your assumption that a certain percentage of the peloton must be clean and thus its perfectly possible to score 3rd at Fleche without being on a doping program. I don't believe the evidence (omerta, endemic doping) supports this assumption.
 
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perhaps it is how one define's clean?

The riders define it as maintaining natural parameters, and another definition "if it does not show up, it is not doping".

On Dave Millar, he said when he went to Slipstream "I am not even doing recovery therapy!" with some tenor of exasperation.

Does not anyone think this was enlightening of Millar. Twofold: using a euphemism to disarm the term doping. And secondly, a denial which implies it is the most natural of actions.
 
Firstly, you guys are ignoring very direct questions which I find strange. Could it because you dont have answers and are just generalising.

Basically, Ludwig and Blackcat are saying the minute anybody achieves any sort of decent result, they are definitely doping bigtime.

Here is my take, I know doping is still a serious problem and just maybe nobody is clean as suggested. However I look at teams like Boguyes Telecon, Fdjeux and they have never had any connections with doping yet both have been around for a decade. To me, they are 1/clean, 2/on a lesser doping programme or 3/on drugs so advanced they are miles in front of the testers for the last 10 years but not getting the results.

I think many on here would go with no 2 and my question is what does a lesser doping program consist of, if Blood transfusions, Gene Doping, EPO/Cera, HGH are the heavy stuff, what lesser drugs can be used which give significant performance improvements without running into difficulties over a 10 year period. What constitutes recovery therapy? and if a rider is staying within their natural paremers, how far ahead would they be of a clean rider? I can see it making a huge difference over a 3 week GT but how much difference would it make in a one day race.

Both French teams have won stages at the Tour and put riders in the Top 10 on GC but rarely perform at the Giro or Vuelta. Even if these guys are on a lesser programme, to my mind there is no way they should be competitive with the guys on the heavy stuff yet they are winning races and getting decent results at the Tour de France, the biggest race of them all.

On Damiano Cunego, his results in the GTs have been poor the last few years and I think it is generally accepted that it is at the GTs where doping has the biggest impact. To me Cunego is not an attacking rider, he has a kick which means he can just follow other guys and use his kick to win races, he doesnt have to do much the races so can conserve energy. In fact Cunego and Valverde are very similar riders but look at their results this year, there is no comparison. At first Ludwig suggested he was still doping big time but now is not sure if he is on a heavy programme or not. The argument is that Cunego won 2 stages at the Vuelta so is definitely on the heavy stuff.

I would just like people to acknowledge that doping is not the only factor in winning races. I am tired of pointing this out and I was there to witness it. Cunego went fell the first week of the Vuelta, won his stage but then dropped away. The day before his second stage win, he probably deliberately finished in the autobus on the stage to Sierra Nevada. The following day he got away in a break that was allowed to gain a huge gap and he had a huge lead at the bottom of La Pandera, he wasnt in the battle with Vlaverde, Sanchez etc so he wasnt racing those guys. He wasnt the only rider to stay away that day either. Is this not the same as Bassons being allowed to stay away at the Dauphine 10 years.

Another factor is the level of competition in each event, I heard it straight from a riders mouth that there is no comparison between the Giro and Vuelta with the Giro being at a much higher level. If the Vuelta is at a lower level, then wouldnt it be logical that a clean/er rider could do better at the Vuelta than at the Giro.

To sum it up, I would argue that perfromances and victories can depend on tactics, targeting specific races, level of competition. self motivation and yes doping but how big that is in relation to the other factors is THE question. Just dont put every decent performance down to doping solely.
 
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One of the ways your reasoning goes wrong is assuming that doping is only for GTs. But history tells us dopers dominate the one-week races and classics as well.

I'm not going to try to guess what kind of doping program Cunego or others are on because I believe these programs are constantly evolving. But I would argue that there is a high degree of liklihood that the top racers are doing something similar to other top racers. It isn't always organized at a team level...indeed at this point the majority of doping is probably carried out outside the confines of team structures. If there were bigger gaps in terms of preparation, then there would be bigger demand within the peloton to develop the testing and preventive measures to do something about the problem.

I suppose the Vuelta has been lagging a little in recent years but I wouldn't exaggerate the difference...it remains extremely competitive. And looking at the history of the Vuelta in the past 15 years we see a race exclusively dominated by dopers and doping teams.

The reason I find it so hard to believe that a clean rider could win a mountain stage in a GT or a hard classic (or even a flat classic for that matter) is there doesn't seem to by any precedent for this in the past 15 years.

I acknowledge doping is not the only factor in winning races. Contador and Valverde are clearly hugely talented individuals--there is no way they could do what they do without ample natural talent. Armstrong is a unique individual with a unique physiology--he has the mental edge over the competition. But take away the dope and I don't believe any of them could score Top 20 in a GT.

I don't see myself believing a clean cyclist could win a major event until either foolproof testing arrives, or the sport gets a major facelift and change of leadership. And even then it will take some years for the sport to build up credibility. Until then, I'll enjoy the spectacle.
 
ludwig said:
One of the ways your reasoning goes wrong is assuming that doping is only for GTs. But history tells us dopers dominate the one-week races and classics as well.

I'm not going to try to guess what kind of doping program Cunego or others are on because I believe these programs are constantly evolving. But I would argue that there is a high degree of liklihood that the top racers are doing something similar to other top racers. It isn't always organized at a team level...indeed at this point the majority of doping is probably carried out outside the confines of team structures. If there were bigger gaps in terms of preparation, then there would be bigger demand within the peloton to develop the testing and preventive measures to do something about the problem.

I suppose the Vuelta has been lagging a little in recent years but I wouldn't exaggerate the difference...it remains extremely competitive. And looking at the history of the Vuelta in the past 15 years we see a race exclusively dominated by dopers and doping teams.

The reason I find it so hard to believe that a clean rider could win a mountain stage in a GT or a hard classic (or even a flat classic for that matter) is there doesn't seem to by any precedent for this in the past 15 years.

I acknowledge doping is not the only factor in winning races. Contador and Valverde are clearly hugely talented individuals--there is no way they could do what they do without ample natural talent. Armstrong is a unique individual with a unique physiology--he has the mental edge over the competition. But take away the dope and I don't believe any of them could score Top 20 in a GT.

I don't see myself believing a clean cyclist could win a major event until either foolproof testing arrives, or the sport gets a major facelift and change of leadership. And even then it will take some years for the sport to build up credibility. Until then, I'll enjoy the spectacle.

I dont think doping is only for the GTs, I just think it has a much more significant impact on the GTs.

The Vuelta has definitely had a sordid past this century but I think it has improved the last few years. As I said, I heard the comparison made by a pro rider not me so I am not exaggerating.

I personally dont want this to be a back and forth between us, I would like others to give their opinion on different doping programmes and what are the gains from different drugs and what people believe is possible in modern cycling or maybe somebody can direct me to a thread on this subject I might have missed.
 
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It's a very interesting discussion with many valuable contributions: a great read. But regarding Cunego's possible doping program since 2004, we're in a land of pure speculation. Regardless of what one may think, it's impossible to achieve some certainty here, or even come to some plausible conclusions. As for me, I merely see various options, possibilities.
I would simply like to make some observations about the 2004 Giro, since I remember this great race very well, I have watched the crucial mountain stages many times.
I have to say, that those who believe that Cunego's success was mostly a result of a lucky set of coincidences are perhaps not getting the full picture.
Although I supported Simoni during that race, I have to say that Cunego was much stronger, especially in the final part.
In the stages to Bormio and Presolana he was never in a difficulty. Because of the tactics he couldn't directly go after Simoni, but whenever Cioni (who was very strong then) accelerated to bridge the gap, Cunego immediately sat on his wheel without any problem. Cunego was so strong, that he was riding standing on the pedals, with hands on the drops (Pantani style) all the time which is not an efficient position, and Cunego himself stopped using this technique in the later years.
On the other hand, it was Simoni who was clearly in trouble. On the stage to Bormio 2000, he attacked on the last climb, but got a very small gap, and whenever Cioni accelarated (taking Cunego with him), the gap was coming down in a matter of seconds. Simoni was almost purple from exertion, and his cadence was very low, as he clearly had trouble pushing the gear he was using. Cunego's win wasn't a tight sprint finish; it was more of a devastating finishing uphill attack to which Simoni had no response.
Next day, Simoni was with Garzelii, but on the last climb Garzelli was clearly the stronger man, setting the pace on the last section, with Simoni hanging for life. When Cioni with Cunego accelerated, the gap was coming down real fast.
Cunego was also stronger than Simoni before the Giro, during Giro del Trentino and Giro dell Appenino.
Simoni was clearly the weaker man, but he could've won the Giro, had it not been for his ITT fall. Cunego was horrible during ITT. If Simoni hadn't fell down, he could've taken the leader's jersey. In this situation Cunego would not be allowed to go in that monumental escape, and Saeco would've used a classical, conservative strategy.
Simoni may have deliberately put less effort in preparations for the Giro, in order to save his form for the Tour. To some extent it worked; while he was getting dropped on the first serious climbs in 2003, he was able to hold with the contenders at least until the final climb in 2004.
As for Cunego's mysterious drop of form, there are no obvious answers here. I doubt he had access in 2004, to anything better than the rest of the peleton was using, so he clearly was in great form (although he was doping). So why the drop of form? I'll suggest a certain hypothesis, it may be completely false, but i think it's interesting:
Cyclists usually reach full maturity in their late twenties, or even early thirties. That was the case with Simoni. It's important to realize that the male body is still developing until that point: the muscle mass is increasing and the bones are becoming more dense, and as the result the weight is increasing.
Although Cunego was a very young cyclist in 2004, he was already reknown for his relatively huge calf and thigh muscles. I have never seen a climber with such big muscles, he had the legs of a sprinter. And yet he was able to maintain a very low body weight, like the smallest climbers. How was it possible? He had to have an extremely slim and light upper body to balance the bulk of his leg muscles. As years passed, Cunego's upper body certainly developed: his bones and muscles. He had two options: to accept higher weight, or to reduce it. And you can't just reduce weight selectively on one part of the body. I believe, Cunego chose the second option. When I looked at Cunego's legs in recent years I realized that they are visibly thinner than before. However the process may have killed that extra edge that Cunego had over other cyclists. In pro cycling, even small differences such as these yield huge effects.
To put myself more clear: I believe that contrary to other riders, Cunego reached his perfect point, his perfect combination very early. The natural development of the body may have killed a climber in Cunego.
I am not so sure about Cunego's implicit suggestions about his rejection of doping as a cause of his weaker results. I would love to believe him, but it is also possible that this is an attempt to rationalize and make sense (also for himself) of his failure to meet the huge expectations put on his shoulder after the 2004 victory. It must be very painful to live, and to deal with such a thing.