The doped bike exists (video of pro version)!

[cycling.coach]

The doped bike (DON'T) exist!

The UCI buffoons make the Keystone Cops look like rocket scientists. This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen... dismantling the bottom bracket to see if a motor exists... BAH! And, I just love the way the UCI official spins the rear wheel and examines it as it spins. The look on his face clearly demonstrates he is somewhat puzzled by what he sees, sort of disbelief. Really? How shocking it must be to see a modern day bicycle wheel spin smoothly with little resistance. What'll they think of next?

 

[mihhint]

Re:

meanwhile this is the level of technology available to the public. motor well hidden. http://www.currietech.com/haibike/haibike-xduro-race-d-5

I find it hard to believe their is a level of technology that is so far removed from consumption as is assumed with the alleged motorized bikes in peloton

So did I not very long ago. But many stories how well hidden and rather quiet motors have been around for a while now. For example take a look at this model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVn3Z2tPevc
Looks pretty slick and according to propaganda for that model, it can work at maximum 250 watts for about 30 minutes and up to 2h on 60 watts before you need to change the bottle(battery). Doesn't really seem like the technology for it would be sci-fi, might just be that there was no main-stream market for it and the real one was keeping lower profile.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

So did I not very long ago. But many stories how well hidden and rather quiet motors have been around for a while now. For example take a look at this model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVn3Z2tPevc
Looks pretty slick and according to propaganda for that model, it can work at maximum 250 watts for about 30 minutes and up to 2h on 60 watts before you need to change the bottle(battery). Doesn't really seem like the technology for it would be sci-fi, might just be that there was no main-stream market for it and the real one was keeping lower profile.

That's a pedalin'.

 

[blackcat]

Re: The doped bike (DON'T) exist!

The UCI buffoons make the Keystone Cops look like rocket scientists. This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen... dismantling the bottom bracket to see if a motor exists... BAH! And, I just love the way the UCI official spins the rear wheel and examines it as it spins. The look on his face clearly demonstrates he is somewhat puzzled by what he sees, sort of disbelief. Really? How shocking it must be to see a modern day bicycle wheel spin smoothly with little resistance. What'll they think of next?

keytone bidons

 

[colinsmith123]

Where are the prototypes? There are none. But now the UCI have raised the profile of mechanical doping, no doubt some very clever University engineering students will have changed their thesis subject.

Even if the power to weight benefit can be justified and then be able to manufacture a motor small enough to fit within a conventional bottom bracket, sthe biggest issue is getting rid of the heat generated by the said hidden battery and motor. Because that is all the UCI checkers need to do is touch the bottom bracket soon after the finish. If they go 'ouch *** me, that's hot! then out with the bottom bracket.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Wouldnt it be nice to see comments from all the non-believers regarding this topic....yeh looking at The Hitch - Mr Bigwig !!
how about "actually, you guys were right and now I,m a believer"

 

[ray j willings]

Where are the prototypes? There are none. But now the UCI have raised the profile of mechanical doping, no doubt some very clever University engineering students will have changed their thesis subject.

Even if the power to weight benefit can be justified and then be able to manufacture a motor small enough to fit within a conventional bottom bracket, sthe biggest issue is getting rid of the heat generated by the said hidden battery and motor. Because that is all the UCI checkers need to do is touch the bottom bracket soon after the finish. If they go 'ouch **** me, that's hot! then out with the bottom bracket.

We already have batteries in bikes. They won't get that hot unless they short.
The motor would be like any motor used now. Heat would not be a issue.
Riders are going to use the motor when they need it. It would not be needed to run for a whole 5 hour race.
If riders are still using motors or were using motors , we are certainly not going to know anything about them.
I

 

[sniper]

This is quite spectacular, Belgian television testing the motorized bike in an amateur race.
It's the best version of the system that is currently available, according to the Belgian distributor, who in turn gets the product from an Austrian manufacturer.
The vid also shows how it is installed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo
If I have more time on my hands I will summarize it in more detail later, or maybe someone else with Dutch in their repertoire can do it.
(Boonen is also interviewed briefly, Cancellara refuses)

 

[blackcat]

Like DQ says, the bigger question is doping with the normal roids, epo, and transfusions.

if they are denied, then the peloton will enforce their own anti-mechanical doping

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Where are the prototypes? There are none. But now the UCI have raised the profile of mechanical doping, no doubt some very clever University engineering students will have changed their thesis subject.

Even if the power to weight benefit can be justified and then be able to manufacture a motor small enough to fit within a conventional bottom bracket, sthe biggest issue is getting rid of the heat generated by the said hidden battery and motor. Because that is all the UCI checkers need to do is touch the bottom bracket soon after the finish. If they go 'ouch **** me, that's hot! then out with the bottom bracket.

This is getting silly. There are no prototypes because they are in production. You can buy one today. Look up thread a short ways and you'll see one company that has a fully hidden system with batteries in the frame. They'll even do custom if you supply a frame. I agree that this would have been an interesting senior engineering undergrad project - about 5 to 7 years ago.

John Swanson

 

[poupou]

Even if the power to weight benefit can be justified and then be able to manufacture a motor small enough to fit within a conventional bottom bracket, sthe biggest issue is getting rid of the heat generated by the said hidden battery and motor. Because that is all the UCI checkers need to do is touch the bottom bracket soon after the finish. If they go 'ouch **** me, that's hot! then out with the bottom bracket.

There is not so much heat to dissipate, that is not a thermal motor. Energy efficiency on a such electrical motor is around 90% and probably in the same range for batteries, so for an average of a 100W extra help, only 20W to dissipate. Not a great deal!

 

[doperhopper]

looks like this motor checking is some kind of a new UCI publicity stunt to divert a attention from real cheating, so they can say "look how careful we are, we check even this, however stupid it may look like" (they should also check for helium filled frames, autorolling motorized ball inside the tyres, or pressurized air pack providing rocket boost during crazy attacks, or... you name it)

 

[Lyon]

Given the history of sport, I think it is safe to say that if these motors exist, they have already been used. Any arguments about it being too risky or similar seems naive. Athletes do the craziest things and get away with it all the time.

 

[avanti]

"LeMond: The UCI should use a heat gun to detect motors"

Greg, you probably mean a handheld pyrometer.

 

[Master50]

Even if the power to weight benefit can be justified and then be able to manufacture a motor small enough to fit within a conventional bottom bracket, sthe biggest issue is getting rid of the heat generated by the said hidden battery and motor. Because that is all the UCI checkers need to do is touch the bottom bracket soon after the finish. If they go 'ouch **** me, that's hot! then out with the bottom bracket.

There is not so much heat to dissipate, that is not a thermal motor. Energy efficiency on a such electrical motor is around 90% and probably in the same range for batteries, so for an average of a 100W extra help, only 20W to dissipate. Not a great deal!

It only takes about 50 watts for a bad electrical connection at a receptacle to melt aluminum . Aluminum melts at 600 degrees I think. 20 watts is hard to dissipate so that the frame would not show it to a thermal imaging camera or even a laser thermometer. all motors produce heat and I think your efficiency numbers are very optimistic. Even my tiny helicopter with a super efficient rare earth magnet motor and tiny lithium battery gets warm after only a few minutes. Drones have about the most efficient motors made and no way they can dissipate the heat they produce from the right thermal camera.
while I believe this bike can be built it isn't magic nor is the system concealable from your ears or a thermal imaging camera like a flir there is even an iPhone camera Made by Flir that can show 1 and 2 degree temperature gradients. some sensors are sensitive enough to measure the temperature differences of the chain and sprockets from mechanical friction.
with the right sensors no motor or battery can be hidden and a 5 watt heat producer is dead easy to detect. there is no money to invent an undetectable system with all the necessary attribute to be completely undetectable. The R&D would have to exceed the resources of tool maker who sell billions of dollars of electric tools. it would have to surpass the current Drone demand which is by its nature depending on the best batter and motor technology available. All that R & D from some rich bike racer is well just not likely. Anybody that has that ability is not making bike motors for a few potential cheaters.
To build such a device for the purpose of cheating and keeping it undetectable would require some motor technology from another planet.
E bikes have a market and efficiency and batteries are looking for this magic system so they can market it. in terms of commercial application they need 250 watt motors at least.
These last few stages of the Giro are several hours long and these hidden motor systems are useful for maybe 20 minutes. the rest of the time they are dead weigh the rider has to carry up the mountains to use for a few minutes.
I might give some credence for the Cancillera stories of a few years ago but not today.

 

[mihhint]

Master50, I don't think anybody has been claiming that current current models don't generate any heat and that they could avoid detection by proper thermal imaging cameras. It would indeed be an impossible feat to build an engine to move smth that doesn't produce any heat, that's just common sense. But I just don't see how anything you said there is relevant at all in regards to current and past allegations of doped bike cheating, simply because they have never used thermal cameras to find this kind of cheating. Hence so far it's just been a non-factor.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

This is quite spectacular, Belgian television testing the motorized bike in an amateur race.
It's the best version of the system that is currently available, according to the Belgian distributor, who in turn gets the product from an Austrian manufacturer.
The vid also shows how it is installed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo
If I have more time on my hands I will summarize it in more detail later, or maybe someone else with Dutch in their repertoire can do it.
(Boonen is also interviewed briefly, Cancellara refuses)

Lol, the bike is called 'Spartakus'.
Used in an amateur race and no-one noticed. Provided 150 Watts.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

This is quite spectacular, Belgian television testing the motorized bike in an amateur race.
It's the best version of the system that is currently available, according to the Belgian distributor, who in turn gets the product from an Austrian manufacturer.
The vid also shows how it is installed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo
If I have more time on my hands I will summarize it in more detail later, or maybe someone else with Dutch in their repertoire can do it.
(Boonen is also interviewed briefly, Cancellara refuses)

Sniper, so you speak Flemish, some more info would be appreciated, especially Museeuw's thoughts.

and, I think you should compare Cancellara's upperbody for that type of power estimate he is putting out, compared to other climbs he hasdone on the Muur when he has won. And if his shoulders were as still.

and the Roubaix acceleration, how a possible visual illusion could look like an acceleration in the first 50 metres of a dragster if the dragster was going +/- 10 fold less speed. it did not "look" like a normal acceleration, it looked like a spinning top that is getting wound up, starting slowly and then catching on. whereas if you do a sprint jump in a sprint, if you are a mcewen, your powermeter might read 1500 in that spike, well, that accelleration looked like it was catching on to a new gear and the acceleration started slow, gets a bit quicker in the acceleration*
*not quicker in speed, but the acceleration rises, ofcourse the speed rises, but the way the speed rises (the rate of acceleration)
... and the acceleration started slow, gets a bit quicker in the acceleration, then the acceleration rate increases, then increases some more...

but see how cancellara uses his upperbody on in-the-seat climbs, and climbs where he has won and been in top form.

i dont assert this as evidence, just curious

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

This is quite spectacular, Belgian television testing the motorized bike in an amateur race.
It's the best version of the system that is currently available, according to the Belgian distributor, who in turn gets the product from an Austrian manufacturer.
The vid also shows how it is installed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo
If I have more time on my hands I will summarize it in more detail later, or maybe someone else with Dutch in their repertoire can do it.
(Boonen is also interviewed briefly, Cancellara refuses)

Sniper, so you speak Flemish, some more info would be appreciated, especially Museeuw's thoughts.

and, I think you should compare Cancellara's upperbody for that type of power estimate he is putting out, compared to other climbs he hasdone on the Muur when he has won. And if his shoulders were as still.

and the Roubaix acceleration, how a possible visual illusion could look like an acceleration in the first 50 metres of a dragster if the dragster was going +/- 10 fold less speed. it did not "look" like a normal acceleration, it looked like a spinning top that is getting wound up, starting slowly and then catching on. whereas if you do a sprint jump in a sprint, if you are a mcewen, your powermeter might read 1500 in that spike, well, that accelleration looked like it was catching on to a new gear and the acceleration started slow, gets a bit quicker in the acceleration*
*not quicker in speed, but the acceleration rises, ofcourse the speed rises, but the way the speed rises (the rate of acceleration)
... and the acceleration started slow, gets a bit quicker in the acceleration, then the acceleration rate increases, then increases some more...

but see how cancellara uses his upperbody on in-the-seat climbs, and climbs where he has won and been in top form.

i dont assert this as evidence, just curious

Museeuw doesn't say anything new, says he too believes it's been used in the past, but defends Cancellara, saying Cance has so much natural ability he doesn't need a motor. (but oddly he does analyze the bike change as particularly suspect)

Other details:
- the maker of the tv program says he talked off the record with several pro's and journalists all of whom confirmed they are certain the motorized bike is being/has been used.
- the motor gives 150 watt, but they don't say for how long.
- if this system is "the best there is" (as the distributor claims, but which I strongly doubt), it should be relatively easy to test for motors, no need for heat guns or whatever. The battery (weight is not mentioned) is hidden either in the bidon or in the saddle.
- the distributor has sold around sixty of these systems in recent months, mostly to cycling tourists.
- One interesting detail from that documentary (which is from 2014, btw) is an anecdote from the distributor that he was recently approached by an amateur (or semi-pro) who asked him to build the system into his bike in exchange for half of the prize money.


----
I'm not sure if i fully understand/agree with your analysis of Cance's jumps.
To me, the one on the Muur away from Tommeke would perhaps be possible with massive doping (but additional motor still more plausible imo). The one in Paris Roubaix otoh just looks immensely unnatural in terms of accelleration without increased cadence, and I honestly cannot reconcile that jump with anything I've seen before.

I don't doubt for a sec that Classicomano was massively doped for those races.
But even if the jumps in isolation would perhaps be explicable through doping, fact is the jumps didn't happen in isolation. Imo the 'doping-only' explanation (as put forward most vocally by d-queued and thehitch) simply fails to account for those alien jumps in two consecutive Monumnets + the premeditated bike changes + plus all the other residual stuff (rumors within the peloton, riders hearing noises coming from his bike, his clicking on the handlebar). Occam says hi.

 

[Master50]

Re:

Master50, I don't think anybody has been claiming that current current models don't generate any heat and that they could avoid detection by proper thermal imaging cameras. It would indeed be an impossible feat to build an engine to move smth that doesn't produce any heat, that's just common sense. But I just don't see how anything you said there is relevant at all in regards to current and past allegations of doped bike cheating, simply because they have never used thermal cameras to find this kind of cheating. Hence so far it's just been a non-factor.

Until Lemond suggested it, it was not being discussed. it would be an effective and pretty inexpensive way to detect a motor in use rather than wait until later. A thermal camera for an iPhone is under $300.00 and even the more sensitive professional cameras are under $5000.00 now. Our fire department has a couple of cameras that were near $20,000 and replacements are under 5K.
I commented specifically on the supposition that it is easy to conceal the thermal signature. I also am quite willing to accept that if it was ever used in competition that is would be a lot harder to hide now. A rider could only use a motor for a short time even with the most advanced technology currently available simply because they make a distinctive noise. Carbon frames are very hard to quiet. A little click in the pedal can resonate. to truly hide all of the tells a bike would have to be built from the materials used on up and that is a truly fantastic possibility that Specialized would intentionally build a special bike to hide the sounds and thermal signature. if a motor has ever been used it was installed after the frame was built.
As to the Cancellera accusations? we don't have that bike to examine and all conversation on that is pure speculation. I saw the race footage and on the day I said WOW but unfortunately it is just the nature of this area to chose the cheating explanation. I am just commenting on the technical aspects of which I am interested and very qualified to comment on. I reserve my opinions to proven and evidence based things. the speculative part regarding Past transgressions is for others. Nothing new has been said on that part of the discussion and I still think this is a subject for the Bikes and gear area of the forum where the hardware can be discussed. This thermal camera or thermometer is a new twist on the subject and frankly should have been more obvious to me.
Get one of these so called motorized bikes and use it to figure out what kind of detection is necessary and we will cut the possibility off. I would suspect that even a tv camera might be able to detect a motor with a small addition of a thermal imaging circuit. Now that Lemond has suggested it. I would not be surprised if a FLIR camera shows up on a motor bike soon.
Until a motor is found or someone testifies they know of when and how one was used in a race I will leave that to the rest of you.
I prefer to look to today and the way forward so we can be sure this will stay out of the top tier. How to keep it out of Masters racing where I think it is more likely to be tried today is more what I think is likely. For the most of us here motors are more likely to be heard in your rides than in a pro bike race. Just listen.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: The doped bike (DON'T) exist!

The UCI buffoons make the Keystone Cops look like rocket scientists. This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen... dismantling the bottom bracket to see if a motor exists... BAH! And, I just love the way the UCI official spins the rear wheel and examines it as it spins. The look on his face clearly demonstrates he is somewhat puzzled by what he sees, sort of disbelief. Really? How shocking it must be to see a modern day bicycle wheel spin smoothly with little resistance. What'll they think of next?

No kidding.

What a joke.

Throw in the need to use a hammer to put the crankset back on. Really?

Here is the link to the article and video: UCI checks Alberto Contador's bike for motor

Can't believe I am favoring the opinion of a known doper over LeMond on this, but Contador appears to have his head screwed on correctly:

Alberto Contador has called suspicions that riders are using secret motors in their bikes "a joke ... something from science fiction"

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I'm not sure if i fully understand/agree with your analysis of Cance's jumps.
To me, the one on the Muur away from Tommeke would perhaps be possible with massive doping (but additional motor still more plausible imo). The one in Paris Roubaix otoh just looks immensely unnatural in terms of accelleration without increased cadence, and I honestly cannot reconcile that jump with anything I've seen before.

i was ambiguous, cos my acceleration example meant Roubaix, but my upper body concern, was wrt Muur. You look at how Boonen is struggling and extracting extra warrs and power from using all his body and upper body.

Cancellara is formaldehyde still. It might(probably is), because of his tt technique taking over.

so I was using the two different rides and examples, without being too clear on the individual examples.

 

[blackcat]

Re: The doped bike (DON'T) exist!

No kidding.

What a joke.

Throw in the need to use a hammer to put the crankset back on. Really?

Here is the link to the article and video: UCI checks Alberto Contador's bike for motor

Can't believe I am favoring the opinion of a known doper over LeMond on this, but Contador appears to have his head screwed on correctly:

Alberto Contador has called suspicions that riders are using secret motors in their bikes "a joke ... something from science fiction"

Dave.

but the UCI intervention, was a limited hangout, some propaganda action to prove they were over the subject.

it is not about motors, the motor thing is all code for doping, and the meta principle which is legitimacy. The motor allegation, just gets to the heart of it, which is the legitimacy of the sport for once in the post Armstrong epoch, is under attack. But nothing has changed from before during and after Armstrong.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: The doped bike (DON'T) exist!

The UCI buffoons make the Keystone Cops look like rocket scientists. This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen... dismantling the bottom bracket to see if a motor exists... BAH! And, I just love the way the UCI official spins the rear wheel and examines it as it spins. The look on his face clearly demonstrates he is somewhat puzzled by what he sees, sort of disbelief. Really? How shocking it must be to see a modern day bicycle wheel spin smoothly with little resistance. What'll they think of next?

For what it's worth in the video of Contador's bike being checked it's a Tinkoff-Saxo mechanic who is spinning the wheel and examining it

 

[sniper]

Re: The doped bike (DON'T) exist!

No kidding.

What a joke.

Throw in the need to use a hammer to put the crankset back on. Really?

Here is the link to the article and video: UCI checks Alberto Contador's bike for motor

Can't believe I am favoring the opinion of a known doper over LeMond on this, but Contador appears to have his head screwed on correctly:

Alberto Contador has called suspicions that riders are using secret motors in their bikes "a joke ... something from science fiction"

Dave.

but the UCI intervention, was a limited hangout, some propaganda action to prove they were over the subject.

it is not about motors, the motor thing is all code for doping, and the meta principle which is legitimacy. The motor allegation, just gets to the heart of it, which is the legitimacy of the sport for once in the post Armstrong epoch, is under attack. But nothing has changed from before during and after Armstrong.

of course it's Limited Hangout. D-queued and mihhint are beating a dead horse. Nobody ever took the UCI testing seriously. UCI's technical advisor Jean Wauthier is on the record explaining that "a champion like Cancellara" would never take that risk. That should settle the matter.