The ear piece should be banned from pro and top ranked amateur cycling

[bobbins]

They don't NEED radios, they want them because they are used to them and are lazy and can't be bothered to think any more. It is also someone else fault if the DS makes the wrong call.

The notion that radios are a safety call is total BS. How can a car 200m behind the race warn the riders of an obstacle? There are motorbike comms that can do that.

I'l be glad to see the back of them and get back to proper racing.

 

[stainlessguy1]

If everybody is on the high horse about the tradition and how it is all different now, then why don't we have the pro riders only ride on steel frames or even better yet single speeds and have the longer distances for stages and one day races. We can then bring back all the old sponsors and have the cyclists paid the old wages while we are it.

It isn't like the riders have been riding all their careers with a radio in their ears and don't know how to react or read a race. They didn't get to ride with them as amatuer or junior careers.

By the way if I am a company that is looking to invest in sponsoring a sport why would I go with a sport that isn't moving into the future and is living on its traditions and a viewing market that is against technology advances, which my company might deal with (speculation by the way. I don't owe my own company or in marketing). Instead I would invest in another sport that would enhance my product. It seems to me that most of the companies that are spnosoring teams are companies where the owner is a huge cycling fan and sponsor for their pleasure and not for the bottom line dollar. That sponsorship won't last forever.

Notburt , what would you suggest in moving cycling forward . ( So you can invest )
We have now new materials , specialized bikes for , road , time trials , mountain, cyclo cross and commuter and old fashioned and bmx and the specialized wheels , spokes rims , bearings and all that technology is going into multisport developement in areas of solar power , sailing and a lot of other ( to much to mention here ) sports that are benefiting from carbon fiber developement . How much more moving forward do you want ?

Sport must ultimately remain sport , and not enhanced sport thru outside means( electronic or dope ) . Its the athlete that is supposed to drive the sport and not the corporation ( or doctors ) and it should remain within reach for those that are inspired by it.

AS far as the single speed bikes go and steel frames etc. The are still used today and also on the redevelopement list for many European companies , ( see latest bike show ) . The steel frames are still used on track and bike courier together with single speed , fixed wheel etc. Couriers love them .
For the wage portion , well , i guess as long as you roll your wage back to the 1950, and before ( if your type of job even existed then ) we can see you on that , right . So you go first on the wage roll back .

Now do you think that the sport moves forward only because of radios? I guess why not ask the figure skaters to wear them so coaches can remind the skater to keep their leg up during a spiral , or to check out of that triple lutz with their free leg a bit better and stronger . So by the same token maybe the coach can let the skater know that the one that just skated before you skated clean and you better add a triple triple combination in the program , change it on the fly if you will, to get more points ? dont worry i will talk you thru the program . Too funny . ( speed skaters skate with white boards and there is enough yelling with that at the 400 meter track ) I wouldnt want to skate 10,000 meters with an ear piece , i might skate into the coach to shut him up though . All the screaming and yelling at an athlete that happens like this past olympics when the Dutch skater who was on a gold medal time , ended up listening to his coach and skated the same lane for an extra lap and was disqualified . It cost that athlete the Gold .
the view from here remains , radios have no place in this type of competition , put them anywhere else , team car , mechanic , ground crew , but not on the athlete .

 

[Armchair cyclist]

Give the riders radios, but tuned into a Phil and Paul commentary: then they definitely won't know what's happening.

 

[boardhanger]

Notburt , what would you suggest in moving cycling forward . ( So you can invest )
We have now new materials , specialized bikes for , road , time trials , mountain, cyclo cross and commuter and old fashioned and bmx and the specialized wheels , spokes rims , bearings and all that technology is going into multisport developement in areas of solar power , sailing and a lot of other ( to much to mention here ) sports that are benefiting from carbon fiber developement . How much more moving forward do you want ?

Sport must ultimately remain sport , and not enhanced sport thru outside means( electronic or dope ) . Its the athlete that is supposed to drive the sport and not the corporation ( or doctors ) and it should remain within reach for those that are inspired by it.

AS far as the single speed bikes go and steel frames etc. The are still used today and also on the redevelopement list for many European companies , ( see latest bike show ) . The steel frames are still used on track and bike courier together with single speed , fixed wheel etc. Couriers love them .
For the wage portion , well , i guess as long as you roll your wage back to the 1950, and before ( if your type of job even existed then ) we can see you on that , right . So you go first on the wage roll back .

Now do you think that the sport moves forward only because of radios? I guess why not ask the figure skaters to wear them so coaches can remind the skater to keep their leg up during a spiral , or to check out of that triple lutz with their free leg a bit better and stronger . So by the same token maybe the coach can let the skater know that the one that just skated before you skated clean and you better add a triple triple combination in the program , change it on the fly if you will, to get more points ? dont worry i will talk you thru the program . Too funny . ( speed skaters skate with white boards and there is enough yelling with that at the 400 meter track ) I wouldnt want to skate 10,000 meters with an ear piece , i might skate into the coach to shut him up though . All the screaming and yelling at an athlete that happens like this past olympics when the Dutch skater who was on a gold medal time , ended up listening to his coach and skated the same lane for an extra lap and was disqualified . It cost that athlete the Gold .
the view from here remains , radios have no place in this type of competition , put them anywhere else , team car , mechanic , ground crew , but not on the athlete .

You hit the nail on the head. Good points and well said. Radio's out!!

 

[notburt]

I think I am not getting across the point that I am looking for. I want to say that if the teams are going to use radios that it should be embraced and allowed to be transmitted by the station showing the race anytime that the station would want to. I think that it would help new viewers understand what is going on and hopefully bring more people into the sport, which brings more sponsorship money, which brings more races on TV, which allows me to watch more races. Just one point of view for taking advantage of the situation and making it more viewer friendly. Not everybody that watches is as educated and experienced as most of us seem to believe that we are.

Anyway I really don't think that getting rid of radios will allow for the break to stay away. They just wouldn't be allowed to have as large of a time difference. Plus if the only reason to not have radios is for the breaks to succeed, then that seems silly to me. But that is just me and what do I know. I just watch figure skating yelling at the TV telling them to get the leg higher.

 

[stainlessguy1]

I think I am not getting across the point that I am looking for. I want to say that if the teams are going to use radios that it should be embraced and allowed to be transmitted by the station showing the race anytime that the station would want to. I think that it would help new viewers understand what is going on and hopefully bring more people into the sport, which brings more sponsorship money, which brings more races on TV, which allows me to watch more races. Just one point of view for taking advantage of the situation and making it more viewer friendly. Not everybody that watches is as educated and experienced as most of us seem to believe that we are.

Anyway I really don't think that getting rid of radios will allow for the break to stay away. They just wouldn't be allowed to have as large of a time difference. Plus if the only reason to not have radios is for the breaks to succeed, then that seems silly to me. But that is just me and what do I know. I just watch figure skating yelling at the TV telling them to get the leg higher.

This has nothing to do with allowing the break to stay away . It has something to do with a different set of tactics to be used and a different style of race to be run . It acutally helps split the peloton up . YOu must be thinking about amateur racing where the group is so afraid to lose sight of the break incase they lose track of where they are riding or are embarassed that they got droped . That would make monday morning awkward having to explain you finished 134th , out of how many ? 15 minutes behind the leaders . ahem .
Typical amateur riding, chase down anything that moves, then sit up again .

What station transmissions are you talking about , the ones between the media , or are you talking about the thread that is suggesting the earpiece the rider wears to communicate with the team car , is to be banned .
I dont think the team car wants any information to be transmitted to you the viewer , unless its preapproved or made into an advertising segment for the team .
During a race i am sure its pretty confidential . Cameras are already all over the course , and its a commentators job to clue in newbies .
How does listening to a coach swear at his riders inform the non cycling public ?

 

[ultimobici]

I explained that in my post just after the one you quoted.

Sorry, I have to call BS on your reasoning. A rider & DS need a radio to communicate things that have been coped with perfectly well without radios? Or would you be ok with one way communication, rider to car only? That I can see being fair.

 

[woodie]

Obviously, with your limited and possibly short term knowledge of cycling, you wouldn't know the difference between a race under radio control and a race without radio control. And yes I do believe riders should have the choice of wearing a helmet. Have you a problem with choice???

You have no idea about my knowledge of cycling. I was merely providing examples of recent races with and without radios that supported my point which you have obviously missed. I saw the world championships, it was a great race. The break was still caught by the chase group and there were no radios for anyone. I've seen plenty of races without radios and yes they were exciting but so were the races i've seen with radios.

As I already said, and make sure you read this carefully, it's riders the make it interesting or boring not the radios. Ultimately the riders decide what happens, yes the DS can scream in their ear but if they don't have the legs it won't work, the riders can also make their own decisions if they have the balls to say no to the DS and back their decision that has happened on multiple occasions.

The way cycling has evolved it won't change much if radios are taken away. The rope will get shorter and team mates will stay closer together, otherwise I don't see much changing.

No I don't have a problem with choice but helmets arn't like they used to be, they are light enough that you can't really feel it on your head so it's not a hassle and there is enough ventelation that you don't overheat. Sure, don't wear a helmet, then maybe you won't wake up when you crash. Give them the choice but I bet atleast 90% of them will still wear them when they race. Helmets save lives. Period.

 

[soOpOSMthanks!]

Boardhanger, with all due respect. Shut up with helmet drivel, shi*ts getting old.

 

[woodie]

Boardhanger, with all due respect. Shut up with helmet drivel, shi*ts getting old.

Thank you This is just to complete the word limit

 

[Captain_Cavman]

...

Anyway I really don't think that getting rid of radios will allow for the break to stay away. They just wouldn't be allowed to have as large of a time difference. Plus if the only reason to not have radios is for the breaks to succeed, then that seems silly to me. But that is just me and what do I know. I just watch figure skating yelling at the TV telling them to get the leg higher.

For me it's not about "allowing the breaks to succeed", it's about allowing the racing to be more interesting.

If the teams with the competitive sprinters are forced to work harder, starting much earlier, they won't be able to exert as much control at the business end. Speeds will be lower in the final Kms, enabling opportunists to sneak off the front. Sprint trains will be much harder to organise as riders will be more tired and the team as a whole won't know who's got the legs and where in the bunch they are without convening in some way, breaking up the momentum on the front.

The biggest argument against banning radios perhaps, is how you stop teams cheating. Maybe it's just simpler to mess about with the value of the intermediate sprints, as the Tour has done this year.

 

[woodie]

For me it's not about "allowing the breaks to succeed", it's about allowing the racing to be more interesting.

If the teams with the competitive sprinters are forced to work harder, starting much earlier, they won't be able to exert as much control at the business end. Speeds will be lower in the final Kms, enabling opportunists to sneak off the front. Sprint trains will be much harder to organise as riders will be more tired and the team as a whole won't know who's got the legs and where in the bunch they are without convening in some way, breaking up the momentum on the front.

The biggest argument against banning radios perhaps, is how you stop teams cheating. Maybe it's just simpler to mess about with the value of the intermediate sprints, as the Tour has done this year.

Thats a fair point but not having radios wouldn't stop HTC putting Bert Grabsch on the front for 160km of the stage to control it and then letting the other riders start helping and taking over in the last 50km. and if four teams with sprinters put someone on the front to control the race until the last 40-50km then the sprinters teams with still have (relatively) fresh legs.

Also I think what the TDF has done for the points classification is fantastic

 

[stainlessguy1]

Thats a fair point but not having radios wouldn't stop HTC putting Bert Grabsch on the front for 160km of the stage to control it and then letting the other riders start helping and taking over in the last 50km. and if four teams with sprinters put someone on the front to control the race until the last 40-50km then the sprinters teams with still have (relatively) fresh legs.

Also I think what the TDF has done for the points classification is fantastic

IN a perfect world sprinters dont get flats , dont need water , never crash and are always pulled along . In the real world , sprinters also crash , need water get flats and most of all can get caught napping at the back of the pack with no other team mate to help them back .
So the sprinters actually have to also ride the bike, much harder and that is the intent of part of the tactic. If the sprinter wants to sit in and is caught sleeping on the switch then oh well . The intent is to have him work hard , the intent is to wear him down in the early part of the race . Not having an earpiece to let him know that the best have left the pack and you are now 15 minutes down, while eating an ice cream is a big yahooo for us steady pace riders .
Its a sport , man against man , and earpieces change the outcome and tactics of the sport . Earpieces have no place in sport the same way dope has no place in sport .

 

[woodie]

IN a perfect world sprinters dont get flats , dont need water , never crash and are always pulled along . In the real world , sprinters also crash , need water get flats and most of all can get caught napping at the back of the pack with no other team mate to help them back .
So the sprinters actually have to also ride the bike, much harder and that is the intent of part of the tactic. If the sprinter wants to sit in and is caught sleeping on the switch then oh well . The intent is to have him work hard , the intent is to wear him down in the early part of the race . Not having an earpiece to let him know that the best have left the pack and you are now 15 minutes down, while eating an ice cream is a big yahooo for us steady pace riders .
Its a sport , man against man , and earpieces change the outcome and tactics of the sport . Earpieces have no place in sport the same way dope has no place in sport .

I know for a fact that at the Tdf at least (and im pretty sure it's the same at other races) that HTC have someone with Cav all the time incase any of that happens. Im sure teams like Garmin and Lampre who have top sprinters would be doing the same thing. So even without the radios there would be someone there to help the sprinter. Also, all of the Protour guys now are strong enough to ride through the convoy themselves and rejoin the peloton if they need to. And as far as i'm concerned the sprinters have to work just as hard as everyone else fighting for wheels and getting over the early climbs.

Also don't put doping and radios in the same category. Thats just lazy. Doping is plain and out cheating where as radios are primarily used for information. Also everyone has access to radios in the top level events so everyone has that advantage.

 

[boardhanger]

Also, all of the Protour guys now are strong enough to ride through the convoy themselves and rejoin the peloton if they need to. .

Maybe on one or two days but for a whole tour?? Yeah right!!

 

[woodie]

Maybe on one or two days but for a whole tour?? Yeah right!!

Have you seen a ProTour bike race???? They can hop from one car to another, plus there are usually other riders from other teams doing the same thing, and then dig for the last 100m or whatever it is. Sure they would be tired at the end of a GT but thats why they have a team mate with them, which was the point of my post, one you completely ignored. Funny that

 

[boardhanger]

Have you seen a ProTour bike race???? They can hop from one car to another, plus there are usually other riders from other teams doing the same thing, and then dig for the last 100m or whatever it is. Sure they would be tired at the end of a GT but thats why they have a team mate with them, which was the point of my post, one you completely ignored. Funny that

Not at flat out pace when setting up for a sprint finale. Instead we have the drones miked up being directed from a team car who are watching on TV. Heck, a director could sit at the hotel and bark orders, while ordering champagne and caviar, over his cell phone. Isn't this essentially where the earpiece and mike is taking us? Whats the difference??? Team car or hotel sauna?

 

[woodie]

Not at flat out pace when setting up for a sprint finale. Instead we have the drones miked up being directed from a team car who are watching on TV. Heck, a director could sit at the hotel and bark orders, while ordering champagne and caviar, over his cell phone. Isn't this essentially where the earpiece and mike is taking us? Whats the difference??? Team car or hotel sauna?

I agree with you on that bolded part. That's why in the last ten or so kms if they get a flat, a mechanical or have a crash they generally don't try to chase.

Yes that is a possibility but I don't think you are giving the DSs or riders enough credit. In the sprint finale the riders are the ones making the call because they are 'on the ground'. I don't think any DS is stupid enough to try and make the calls when they aren't in the wind with the boys. Maybe cyclingPRpro can confirm or deny this since he seems to work in a team.

Ultimately it is up to the riders what happens, as i've said before the DS can bark orders as much as they want but if the riders can't do it it won't happen, and if the riders think they can make the call then the DS should have enough trust in their riders to back that decision.

 

[boardhanger]

I agree with you on that bolded part. That's why in the last ten or so kms if they get a flat, a mechanical or have a crash they generally don't try to chase.

Yes that is a possibility but I don't think you are giving the DSs or riders enough credit. In the sprint finale the riders are the ones making the call because they are 'on the ground'. I don't think any DS is stupid enough to try and make the calls when they aren't in the wind with the boys. Maybe cyclingPRpro can confirm or deny this since he seems to work in a team.

Ultimately it is up to the riders what happens, as i've said before the DS can bark orders as much as they want but if the riders can't do it it won't happen, and if the riders think they can make the call then the DS should have enough trust in their riders to back that decision.

I understand and agree with many of your points. D.S gives his advice pre-race. Let the course of the race decide the riders choices, sure the car can come up an advise if safe, lets not lose the skill of riders having tactical sence. This is why the races have been won by guys 5'5ft and 6'4ft of different body build and weights. That's what makes racing great. As a long time cycling observer i've seen the changes especially in the GTs what the earpiece is doing is regards to 'boring' and 'controling the racing to unbearable standards.

 

[Master50]

For Radios

So much of the discussion is founded on the impression that a DS knows what is going on better than the riders do. They think the DS in the team car is watching TV of the live broadcast and orchestrate the team to race in a particular manner based on the DS's tactical prowess. Not that many races have bare live TV feeds. Those TV feeds don't have time splits or commentary. Just the drone of the motorcycle engine and maybe the cameraman's voice. No title bar under the picture telling the story. Very few races have any information except what is on radio tour. Composition of the break and time gaps. The riders get that too via the black board. If the smart tactician is the team leader then the DS is only providing info, the tactical call is made by the Captain. Radio range is not that great and without a repeater the riders are out of range pretty quickly. Only radio tour has a repeater. most of what I read in forums is not actually reflected by experience and I doubt many here have driven in a race caravan. I appreciate that some riders don't like to use them but most of this debate is fuelled by people that are watching the races on TV and somehow think this is what the riders are getting too.

Radios are used mostly as working tools to support the team in the peloton. Getting ready to fix a flat and know which wheel and rider before the rider is noticed by the commissaire and his team is called.

What do we want from the team car. water, food. electrolyte, energy drinks.

A lot of talking still happens beside the team car even when the radio is there for both.

I think the real problem was not the radios but the supercharging. The depth in some teams to chase and chase unfailingly for long periods has reputedly been as a result of Doping. It looked like the chasing is different and that the timing is off even when the radios are present. We are seeing successful break aways and earlier catches because the timing is not so predictable. Not all the riders are racing with the ear piece in their ear either. Lots of the time the riders have the buds out of their ears. It is safer at the back of the peloton and it does help to reduce the stress for a domestique waiting at the back for the team car. they can sit in the peloton a few minutes longer for the team car to gets its turn behind the chief commissaires car.

Isn't it a little much giving a radio the blame for killing cycling . The benefits are understated and the problems are over stated. I also do not believe that radios have as much influence as the debate makes it out to be. Cycling always struggles with technology. Is it the rider or the tech?

 

[Oldskoolkool]

I think race radio's should go,the worlds last year was an interesting race without them so why not any other race. I dont agree with the safety argument as they still have the lead cars up front to keep an eye on things.
A certain Philippe Gilbert seems to be in favour of ditching them too;

“Often in races I start with a radio but most of the times I take it off. A lot of riders want the radios because it makes them feel safe but I don’t understand that. I respect it, but I don’t understand. They say it’s dangerous because you don’t know what’s coming up or around the corner but it’s also dangerous when the directeurs tell everyone that they need to be in the first ten coming into a tricky corner. Everyone goes full gas trying to move to the front.”

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I think race radio's should go,the worlds last year was an interesting race without them so why not any other race. I dont agree with the safety argument as they still have the lead cars up front to keep an eye on things.
A certain Philippe Gilbert seems to be in favour of ditching them too;

“Often in races I start with a radio but most of the times I take it off. A lot of riders want the radios because it makes them feel safe but I don’t understand that. I respect it, but I don’t understand. They say it’s dangerous because you don’t know what’s coming up or around the corner but it’s also dangerous when the directeurs tell everyone that they need to be in the first ten coming into a tricky corner. Everyone goes full gas trying to move to the front.”

That quote above by Gilbert was interesting. To me, even more interesting, was the following quote of his out of the same interview:

“It was nice in Geelong, I liked it. For me, if I could decide, I would race without them. I can see a race, feel a race, so I don’t need it. I won Lombardia without a radio. I was in contact with my teammates and not with the car, and when you have a good vibe with your teammates it’s more important than the one with your directeur sportif. The most important relationship is the one you have with your teammates,” Gilbert told Cyclingnews.
(source: Gilbert supports radio ban

Gilbert said communication between teammates is important. So I have a couple questions. In the old days when teams were more built on riders from the same/neighboring countries and all spoke the same language, did that make communication between teammates easier and easier to go without radios? And now that teams have a more international makeup, does that make communication between teammates more difficult?

 

[stainlessguy1]

That quote above by Gilbert was interesting. To me, even more interesting, was the following quote of his out of the same interview:

“It was nice in Geelong, I liked it. For me, if I could decide, I would race without them. I can see a race, feel a race, so I don’t need it. I won Lombardia without a radio. I was in contact with my teammates and not with the car, and when you have a good vibe with your teammates it’s more important than the one with your directeur sportif. The most important relationship is the one you have with your teammates,” Gilbert told Cyclingnews.
(source: Gilbert supports radio ban

Gilbert said communication between teammates is important. So I have a couple questions. In the old days when teams were more built on riders from the same/neighboring countries and all spoke the same language, did that make communication between teammates easier and easier to go without radios? And now that teams have a more international makeup, does that make communication between teammates more difficult?

The article from Gilbert in cycling news pretty much somes it up and comes from the source of an active pro .
I agree personally with what he said .
The question to language spoken in the teams , i know many pro sports now have international players from all over. I also experience that most of all countries adopted English as the common language spoken as it is the easiest to learn and the fastest to learn . ( i am talking racing here , with the team and not riding or training on amateur circuits , where most speak the mother tongue in the event etc)
There are still huge amounts of ethnic riders on Home sponsored teams and all things being equal they will speak the mother tongue if they dont want others to hear . However any pro will know with that gut feeling something is up in a few seconds when the language changes . Its not rocket science , you just know .

 

[The Hitch]

sorry if this has already appeared in this thread.

But cosmo catalano usually knows what hes talking about.

http://cyclocosm.com/2009/06/the-four-impossibilities-of-radio-free-racing/

 

[Captain_Cavman]

sorry if this has already appeared in this thread.

But cosmo catalano usually knows what hes talking about.

http://cyclocosm.com/2009/06/the-four-impossibilities-of-radio-free-racing/

He may well know what he's talking about, certainly more than me, but I don't believe that he manages to make the case that banning race radios wouldn't make the racing less dull. He makes the case that it wouldn't transform racing, agreed; but what if you could make it 5% more exciting? - One more finish in each GT where the issue is in doubt right to the line? I think that would be a good thing.

I agree totally on the practical issue of banning electronic communications. And in the end, this is probably kills the idea.