The Evidence

[Race Radio]

Exactly the point. Rumors, innuendo, speculation, and ... insults, are not proof.

This is what is destroying our sport.

You are being a bit harsh. Lance has certainly damaged the sport but he will not destroy it

USADA talks about evidence of EPO and Transfusions from 2009 and 2010. Wouldn't it be funny if Levi told them "We took a transfusion on this day" and then USADA showed a corresponding fluctuation in his blood values?

Yeah, that would be funny

 

[Race Radio]

I was looking for a link to this story earlier today to educate the masses, and from what I could gather just a few months ago Saugy was still saying that the samples were doubtful, not positive, and that they followed the standard procedure and there was no cover-up. USADA's letter however is pretty clear on this point: positive and cover-up. Can you confirm this, or is this a matter of relatively recent articles repeating outdated info? Does USADA have evidence against Saugy?

You will not find a link

Saugy told the investigators one thing then public said another after a visit from the UCI.

 

[BotanyBay]

You are being a bit harsh. Lance has certainly damaged the sport but he will not destroy it

USADA talks about evidence of EPO and Transfusions from 2009 and 2010. Wouldn't it be funny if Levi told them "We took a transfusion on this day" and then USADA showed a corresponding fluctuation in his blood values?

Yeah, that would be funny

C'mon Race, I need you on my side here. Let's not argue the evidence here. Let's just keep it (and the sources) here. Nice and tidy.

And I'll bet you're right.

 

[the big ring]

I was looking for a link to this story earlier today to educate the masses, and from what I could gather just a few months ago Saugy was still saying that the samples were doubtful, not positive, and that they followed the standard procedure and there was no cover-up. USADA's letter however is pretty clear on this point: positive and cover-up. Can you confirm this, or is this a matter of relatively recent articles repeating outdated info? Does USADA have evidence against Saugy?

I noticed recently that it was this lab in Lausanne (sp) that is now in charge of ABP - no doubt a nice little earner for them. And given their "history" with UCI, makes me wonder just how effective the ABP really is, if an EPO result can be handled this way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17586597

Both cycling and athletics have recently handed over management of the biological passport to a newly created Athlete Passport Management Unit (APMU), based at the Swiss Laboratory for Doping Analyses (LAD) in Lausanne.

When the lab was put in charge of ABP, Ashenden ditched them, because he had to ask permission before he could say anything publicly. At the time he was questioning the massive gaps in testing for some riders.

How hard is it to corrupt a lab?

I am sure they are not related, but it was ironic to find the name of one of the techs who works there is Annie Ferrari. ...

http://www.doping.chuv.ch/en/lad_home/lad-qui-sommes-nous/lad-qui-sommes-nous-personnel.htm

 

[Elagabalus]

is there anybody left who believes this now? armstrong doesn't control the internet - it was a myth.

see: blackhatworld.com

take a good look, a really hard look at some of things discussed in the forum sections.

 

[Elagabalus]

my function is to debate on a discussion forum? you bet it is. where else am i supposed to talk about this?

Slowtwitch perhaps?

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

see: blackhatworld.com

take a good look, a really hard look at some of things discussed in the forum sections.

the man power to control comments sections that hardly anyone reads is absurd. i think people get confused between letter writing campaigns and companies getting on twitter and such like. armstrong say have real fans - go talk to them.

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

You are being a bit harsh. Lance has certainly damaged the sport but he will not destroy it

USADA talks about evidence of EPO and Transfusions from 2009 and 2010. Wouldn't it be funny if Levi told them "We took a transfusion on this day" and then USADA showed a corresponding fluctuation in his blood values?

Yeah, that would be funny

it already happened. armstrong just got banned by the USADA. but would this kind of information be a game changer to anyone? it's quite technical.

that levi can still ride and gets to keep all his results, and armstrong gets stripped of 14 year worth, is stunning. i think even the USADA are embarrassed that armstrong didn't fight on and reduce it to the statute of limitations. as I said it in the other thread, however you much you hate armstrong, guys like levi look like real weasels. they had no problem with what was going on over many years, yet betrayed armstrong to save their own skin. once this info comes out, will they ever be seen again?

 

[ManInFull]

After hearing so many different true believers on so many different programmes over the last 2 days, i am hoping for some evidence that even they cant dispute. Everything from today they will just dismiss as witch hunt.

I agree. There needs to be some compelling evidence from his 2009 and 2010 races. Otherwise, it's nothing but discussions about conspiracy, claims made about things that occured, and insinuations about a UCI cover-up.

 

[hrotha]

You will not find a link

Saugy told the investigators one thing then public said another after a visit from the UCI.

I see, thanks. Guess I'll stick to sharing USADA's letter when asked about the cover-up - for now

 

[the big ring]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-reveals-armstrong-made-two-donations-to-the-uci

Pat McQuaid:

I defend Lance because he's one of the greatest athletes in our sport

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Mods, please as Botany suggested, lets leave this thread for the actual information. It is obvious that the desire on the part of some is to dilute the thread with pointless discussion that can take place on the USADA II thread.

Please delete my post and the other posts that do not offer the actual release of evidence in the case.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Personally, I think it's far, far better for a slow release - a drip feed, even, of evidence. Let people digest it and keep each evidence press article short and sweet and tightly focused so people can understand it.

Compared to dumping everything at once, where articles in the press would / could be confusing and overindulgent in analysis and simply TOO MUCH INFO for your average Joe Blow to absorb, with some no doubt slipping through the cracks.

Yes please.
Savor every tidbit served.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The LAF, it's not what you think:

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoo...rong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

ok make it into a evidence thread and we can discuss related matters in other threads. makes no difference to me.

 

[Race Radio]

Here is the original Le Monde article

http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article...nu-avant-tous-les-controles_1751361_3242.html

In October 2009, Armstrong was invited to lunch at the Elysée. Behind this visit, we know he wanted to get the departure of President of AFLD Pierre Bordry

 

[mewmewmew13]

You are being a bit harsh. Lance has certainly damaged the sport but he will not destroy it

USADA talks about evidence of EPO and Transfusions from 2009 and 2010. Wouldn't it be funny if Levi told them "We took a transfusion on this day" and then USADA showed a corresponding fluctuation in his blood values?

Yeah, that would be funny

I would sure cheer Levi for that...
..and that he is an animal lover.



Oops
Mods remove if cleaning thread...thnx

 

[thehog]

Its gone mainstream: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ested-claims-French-anti-doping-official.html

- More juice to come.

 

[TubularBills]

The definitive reply to "never tested positive:"

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

3 Positives 1993 - 1996 (thanks to RR)

Testosterone-Epitestosterone ratios:

9.0-to-1 June 23, 1993;
7.6-to-1 from July 7, 1994;
6.5-to-1 from June 4, 1996.

Most people have a ratio of 1-to-1.
Prior to 2005, any ratio above 6.0-to-1 was considered abnormally high and evidence of doping;
in 2005 that ratio was lowered to 4.0-to-1.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/more/01/18/lance.armstrong/index.html#ixzz24bjqqsrY

8 to 10 positives 1999 - 2005

1. '99 Corticosteroids (illegimate backdated prescription without a TUE)

http://m.si.com/news/to/to/detail/3775061

2. '99 EPO 6 of 15 Samples (Suppressed by UCI)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/aug/24/tourdefrance2005.tourdefrance1

3. '01 EPO 1-3 Samples (Paid off UCI)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ashenden-says-mcquaid-must-now-help-usadas-investigation

So... 11 to 13 Positives and Counting...

LA must have gotten tired of getting nailed... after 2001, he took definitive action:

Lance Armstrong was tipped off 20 minutes before he was tested, claims French anti-doping official

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9499744/Lance-Armstrong-was-tipped-off-20-minutes-before-he-was-tested-claims-French-anti-doping-official.html

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Armstrong-prevenu-avant-les-tests/308442

A scientific consultant to the ALFD says that Armstrong was warned before each control. He also mentions techniques that can be used in 20 minutes or less to avoid positives. Not a lot of detail, but no ambiguity about the statement. He also states the UCI and IOC were involved in the warnings.

..." warned before all the checks , "says scientific advisor to the French Agency for the fight against doping Agency (AFLD ) in Le Monde dated 26 and 27 August. "We did not know until the last minute which hotel it was installed" said Michel Rieu before explaining how, according to him, the American could mislead physicians: " The samplers have struggled to carry out spot checks without Lance Armstrong can benefit from a period of twenty minutes (...) His entourage has accumulated pretenses and palaver to get this famous time. "

"In twenty minutes, a lot of manipulations are possible, says Michel Rieu, giving details that were not all in the act of acusation U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (Usada ). (LA) was conducting infusions of saline to dilute the blood. He replaced his own urine by an artificial urine. It is administered EPO in small doses. The substance was undetectable."

 

[Race Radio]

Lance always made an effort to silence critics. A common method was by threats to their livelihood.

When he announced his return one of his goals was that Patrice Clerc be removed from his role as head of the Tour. While he made his own efforts at achieving this the big push came from Hein Verbuggen, that old charmer. Hein invited the Old lady Amaury to a nice catered dinner, lots of champagne. He started to whisper in her ear about how Clerc was losing her money, Ignoring the fact that the money loss was due the the terrorist activity forcing the cancellation of Paris-Dakkar. She bought his BS and Clerc was gone.

Nice guy Hein, sticking up for his buddy Lance.

No wonder Clerc said this when Armstrong was coming back

"reopening a troubled chapter of the Tour history."

 

[Race Radio]

3 positives for Testosterone



Armstrong's testosterone-epitestosterone ratio was reported to be higher than normal on three occasions between 1993 and 1996, but in each case the test was dismissed by the UCLA lab of renowned anti-doping expert Don Catlin, whose lab tested the Texan some two dozen times between 1990 and 2000. In addition to detailing those test results, SI reveals what appears to have been a reluctance from USOC officials to sanction athletes using performance-enhancing drugs.

In 1999, USA Cycling sent a formal request to Catlin for past test results -- specifically, testosterone-epitestosterone ratios -- for a cyclist identified only by his drug-testing code numbers. A source with knowledge of the request says that the cyclist was Armstrong. In a letter responding to those requests, Catlin informed USA Cycling that his lab could not recover five of the cyclist's test results. Of the results that could be found, "three stand out," SI reports: "a 9.0-to-1 ratio from a sample collected on June 23, 1993; a 7.6-to-1 from July 7, 1994; and a 6.5-to-1 from June 4, 1996. Most people have a ratio of 1-to-1. Prior to 2005, any ratio above 6.0-to-1 was considered abnormally high and evidence of doping; in 2005 that ratio was lowered to 4.0-to-1."


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/more/01/18/lance.armstrong/index.html#ixzz24bjqqsrY

 

[TubularBills]

2009 Astana TDF Infusion Kits with DNA Signatures

"Following last year’s (2009) Tour de France, it emerged that a department of the French police called OCLAESP (Central Office for the fight against environmental damage and for public health) was investigating one of the teams on the race.

Subsequent reports confirmed that the team in question was the Astana squad, with infusion kits being found in the medical waste left for disposal. The use of such kits is banned by WADA, making their use a sanctionable offence."

It was also reported that seven separate DNA traces were found on the kits. Levi Leipheimer left the race early on due to a broken wrist, suggesting seven out of the eight remaining riders could potentially be involved in the use of the kits.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4837/Tour-de-France-OCLAESP-investigation-from-2009-still-ongoing.aspx

This evidence is a twofer.

 

[TubularBills]

2008 - 2010 Blood Samples:

The Mystery of the Five Missing Tests

UCI's suspicious list leaked from 2010 Tour de France

According to NY Daily News USADA has 38 recent blood samples. Some contain strong evidence of blood doping.

Article
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i...ood-attempt-convict-cheater-article-1.1113450


2008-2012 blood parameters
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...nxueWRuZG9jc3xneDo1Mjk0MWEyZTk5YTNmMmMw&pli=1

I quickly scanned the parameters. Indeed his hemoglobin and % reticulocytes fluctuate in some cases wildly. the off-score is also all over the place.

Look the very high off scores and their correlation to major races in which Lance Armstrong competed:

Tour de France, 4–26 July 2009:
108.4 17-Jun-09
98.9 2-Jul-09
thru
95.9 25-Jul-09

Tour Down Under 19 January to 24 January 2010:
102 11-Dec-09 (but no tests in the race?)

Criterium International, March 27-28 2010, Milan-San Remo March 20, 2010:
98.52 13-Mar-10
103.8 19-Mar-10

Tour de France, 3–25 July 2010:
92.5 1-Jul-10

2009 in detail - with the races along the bottom.

HB falls dramatically during the Giro, so much that he would actually be defined as anaemic by the end. Then with 18 days it is suddenly his highest value for the year. However, there is not an increase in ret% which one would expect with a normal recovery (hence the large off score).

ret% remains low during the TDF, in fact gets lower still not quite dropping to an abnormal level,but very close. HB is a little all over the place (possible multiple small infusions ?)

After le tour HB and ret% shoot up (possible use of EPO ?), then there is a hue gap of 4 months with zero blood data.

In isolation, these definitely qualify as suspicious, even if they don't rise to the level of a passport violation, remembering the threshold for that is 99.9% certainty. It could corroborate other evidence/testimony.

I'd love to see Ashenden's interpretation though.

I have to admit, that while suspicious, without further analysis and baseline, these value do show a blatant red flag.

Look here: http://www.anabolicsteroidcalculator.com/resources/articles/ebooks/doping/chapter13.pdf

In particular, Figure 5.

Many feel the fluctuations will be corroborated by eyewitness testimony (minimum 13, 10 riders, 2 staff maybe more?) and expert testimony (Ashenden).

 

[palmerq]

Admins:

Can we please keep this thread as a literal depository for the actual evidence content itself? The only posts allowed will be the evidence quotes and the sources. Please delete any other kinds of messages.

Others: Please don't debate in this thread. Bring that to the "LA/USADA II" thread. Feel free to quote POSTS from this thread, but don't argue in here.

For once, I'd like this forum to have an "easy to reference" aspect to it.

Thanks everyone. Bash me in the other thread (if you must).

make it so forum posters

 

[TubularBills]

The definitive "passed over 500 tests" rebuttal:

http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/the-legend-of-the-500/

Chart

Of those 16 tests in 1999, He failed six or seven.

David Walsh regretting the fact that he wasn't stopped then (audio):

http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/qt/?title=Lance+Armstrong+Analysis,+interviews+w/+David+Walsh+&+Doug+Ullman&dashboard=&id=velorooms.com/files/bbc_radio_five_live_ullman_slater_walsh_240812.mp3&yr=2012