The Fans Disgust Me More than Hamilton

[Anonymous]

Hamilton and Depression...

I personally always liked Tyler, his style of riding and his guts...of course, I was disappointed when he cheated...felt abit like a fool...and I agreed with his punishment. That is life. But my heart goes out to him via this battle with depression. This goes way beyond riding a bike. Having seen firsthand what serious depression does to folks, I wish him only the best. We all know the stories of riders who dealt with depression, quit riding, and sometimes, what then happened to them...I honestly hope Tyler does not go that way. Tyler, good on you for dealing with this and speaking out about it...I wish you all the luck in the world. Retiring was a good call and take good care of yourself...there are alot of people pulling for you out here.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Hey calm down would ya ! What's all this depression business ? It's depressing ! Why is all this depression krap coming out now ? He doesn't suffer from depression he suffers from the weight of living two lives through lying. It can eat away at a persons mental state. If Tyler really suffered from depression then his commercial cause during the good years would have been just that & not MS. MS was his glamour charity this his so called foundation donated money to.

The man is a pathological liar nothing less and nothing more. Don't give him any more credit than that.

The question remains now if he's man enough to go away and tell the truth to himself. If not the next story we read on Tyler Hamilton is his death from crack.

I personally always liked Tyler, his style of riding and his guts...of course, I was disappointed when he cheated...felt abit like a fool...and I agreed with his punishment. That is life. But my heart goes out to him via this battle with depression. This goes way beyond riding a bike. Having seen firsthand what serious depression does to folks, I wish him only the best. We all know the stories of riders who dealt with depression, quit riding, and sometimes, what then happened to them...I honestly hope Tyler does not go that way. Tyler, good on you for dealing with this and speaking out about it...I wish you all the luck in the world. Retiring was a good call and take good care of yourself...there are alot of people pulling for you out here.

 

[cycutza]

Can someone tell me why we have to accept doping as part of the sport?? BroDeal, I've followed many of your posts in many topics and absolutely respect some of your cycling knowledge but this is a joke. And its not just you.

Personally, I thought all cycling fans were with 'no doping' policies but as it turns out......'don't be so naive, it's part of the culture, It's only cheating if everyone else is not doing it, it's the teams to blame, no it's the pressure that excuses us for doping, everyone in the world is corrupt, some doping actually isn't doping, its because if you come forward you get crucified so everyone shhhhh, ohhh better yet its the UCI or WADA or AFLD or whatever other acronyms are to blame, or then again i think its just that everyone else does it so why not you too?!!!'

I don't have my head completely buried in the sand! In comparison (the only comparison i can make anyway) if aussie rules footballers were as strictly tested as cyclists were, then we would have a scandal here in Aus every other day. I think cycling comes under huge criticism for drug cheats becuase they are actually making an effort to rid the sport of cheats....and as it should, giving excuses isn't the way forward. But what hope do we have when fans are just accepting it as part of the sport. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe we should introduce doping across the board for those that want it. An even playing field for all and if there are any clean cyclists (a small percentage) then bad luck to you losers.

Can't wait for the day my boss and work colleagues let me rack up so i can get a few extra percent done in the boardroom.

 

[Power13]

Sure it does. There is a huge difference between 10% of the riders doping and 90% of the riders doping. In the 10% case, doping can be fairly considered as cheating the clean riders out of victory. In the 90% case, where the few clean riders are well aware of what is standard in the sport, doping is standard operating procedure and it is not cheating. It is like in Apocalypse Now where they compare murder in Vietnam to handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

It is the fact that the more gullible of the fans were too stupid to figure out the obvious that does not matter.

I don't accept "Everyone else is doing it" from my kids and I sure as hell am not going to accept it form some professional athletes who are paid to ride their bikes.

 

[Power13]

+1 Random riders get destroyed by the system so the powers that be can say they are doing something about the problem. Meanwhile the people who are most responsible for maintaining the problem remain in place. As long as the team managers, DSes, doctors, and UCI oficials stay the same then nothing will ever change.

Agreed on all points....

 

[cycutza]

I don't accept "Everyone else is doing it" from my kids and I sure as hell am not going to accept it form some professional athletes who are paid to ride their bikes.

very well said

 

[tifosa]

I don't accept "Everyone else is doing it" from my kids and I sure as hell am not going to accept it form some professional athletes who are paid to ride their bikes.

Most definitely!

 

[skidmark]

I don't accept "Everyone else is doing it" from my kids and I sure as hell am not going to accept it form some professional athletes who are paid to ride their bikes.

Nor should you. Nor would I. But how would you feel if your child was the only one caught doing something everyone else was doing, and your child was being lambasted in the press, on the internet, everywhere? Would you just say 'well, that's your mess, kiddo, I guess you have to face up to the storm', or would you say 'hey wait a minute people, don't just get mad at my kid, there's a whole system of corruption out there, you know'?

I think that's the crux of this discussion, the divide between people who rigidly see personal culpability as the be-all end-all in the blame game, and people who see the bigger picture as more important to address.

 

[tifosa]

skidmark, to solve the problem of PEDs in cycling, the solution MUST begin with accepting personal responsibility. Much easier to change one person, than to start changing groupthink. Would you rather fight one bull? Or run with the entire herd at Pamplona?

If only we had answers to these questions:
Does cycling really want to change?
Does cycling love its "traditions" just a little too much?
Do cyclists buy into those "traditions" thinking its all part of the system?
Do the rules still apply when only a few are caught?
Should the punishment be the same for the suppliers, those who aid and abet, as for the user?
Should cycling grow some balls?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Skidmark - I think if we break this down to Hamilton's case, the solution really for him (aside from his direct treatment for depression) is to come clean on his past and admit everything he did, and cooperate with authorities. He's already been shamed to the bottom and viewed as being the biggest drug cheat in the sport. He's never going to race again anywhere, ever, so he has no fear of being blacklisted. And it would take a great burden off his shoulders.

In a sense then, it's the same situation as your fictitious kid who got in trouble for doing what everyone else did. The solution is to tell the truth.

 

[Anonymous]

re

Hey calm down would ya ! What's all this depression business ? It's depressing ! Why is all this depression krap coming out now ? He doesn't suffer from depression he suffers from the weight of living two lives through lying. It can eat away at a persons mental state. If Tyler really suffered from depression then his commercial cause during the good years would have been just that & not MS. MS was his glamour charity this his so called foundation donated money to.

The man is a pathological liar nothing less and nothing more. Don't give him any more credit than that.

The question remains now if he's man enough to go away and tell the truth to himself. If not the next story we read on Tyler Hamilton is his death from crack.

Gee, sorry for having sympathy for this guy...the hitching post for your high horse is right over there...

 

[BikeCentric]

Skidmark - I think if we break this down to Hamilton's case, the solution really for him (aside from his direct treatment for depression) is to come clean on his past and admit everything he did, and cooperate with authorities. He's already been shamed to the bottom and viewed as being the biggest drug cheat in the sport. He's never going to race again anywhere, ever, so he has no fear of being blacklisted. And it would take a great burden off his shoulders.

In a sense then, it's the same situation as your fictitious kid who got in trouble for doing what everyone else did. The solution is to tell the truth.

Absolutely. I would like to say that he has nothing more to lose, but unfortunately that is not the case. He will face a lot of harassment and further "exile" if he does come clean. Look at LeMond, he was fired from Trek and his LeMond brand of bicycles discontinued when his public spat with Armstrong began, and this was a very powerful man with great stature in the cycling industry. Now don't me wrong, I don't know for a fact that the fued and the firing were correlated, but I did work in the bike industry at the time and I DO know for a fact that those Trek LeMond bicycles were the best selling road bikes in America at the time, yet they were still discontinued.

Anyway, Tyler would likely have to deal with a lot as he seemingly has no power and no stature left in the sport and industry. However, he could also make some money to help him live post cycling and earn a lot of respect for himself and from others if he writes a tell-all book.

 

[BigBoat]

In the 90% case, where the few clean riders are well aware of what is standard in the sport, doping is standard operating procedure and it is not cheating. It is like in Apocalypse Now where they compare murder in Vietnam to handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

It is the fact that the more gullible of the fans were too stupid to figure out the obvious that does not matter.

The one's who dont dope dont make it to the Pros, or into the Tour. The right of passage appears to be doping. THis is very obvious. It doesnt mean many cyclists dope at all. The small percentage that do dope seem to have all ended up in the same place (at the top.) This is very obvious. You can say that all top cyclists got there by doping (or 99.8% of them did.)

Doping is not "standard operating procedure" in say, Junior cycling. However, it does seem to have manifested itself in masters 35+ cat 1-3 amateur racing.

 

[tifosa]

BigBoat, doping was around in the early 70's when I road as an amateur at 16! Go big or go home, that was the motto then, that appears to be the motto now.

By the way, I went home.

Those that went big became National champs and later Olympians. I'm just sayin...

 

[skidmark]

Tifosa and Alpe, I don't disagree with you at all, and you make good points. Accountability needs to start with the riders, let me be clear that I agree with that, and especially in Hamilton's case, with his past denials.

What I was trying to illustrate is that accountability doesn't need to end with the riders, and it's frustrating that some fans seem to believe it should. Absolutely, individual accountability is important. But it's not the be-all-end-all. You can't not punish someone for breaking the rules, even if 'everyone's doing it'. But at the same time, I think the way some people rake a guy through the coals for doping like he's the only one who's ever done it is way too myopic and out of context. I get that people want to be mad at someone for the state that cycling's in, and a repeat offender doper that has already embarrassed the sport is an easy target for that rage. Still, I think some people lack perspective and context about the scope of doping in the sport, and in sports in general, and so when I see opinions expressed where folks are taking doping positives really personally, I wonder if they realize that most of the athletes in the sport they care about are equally as heinous as the person they're vilifying.

Anyway, I'm all on board with the notion that cleaning up the sport will take people being friggin' honest for once, without fear of being blackballed. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that there's a double standard going on, where hatred is spewed towards someone who did the same thing as most other people did, but just happened to get caught for it. Where are the threads ripping apart Tony Rominger, Indurain, Chiappuci? I realize that's a rhetorical question, as those names aren't really topical anymore and Hamilton's positive is news right now. But all I'm saying is I wish everyone could take a step back and have a bit of perspective on the bigger picture here.

 

[bianchigirl]

But what's the bigger picture with Hamilton - he's worked with Bruyneel, Riis and Pevenage - did nobody tell him to be a little more careful about the company he keeps? I'm all for cleaning out every team doctor that's been around since the bad old days, every DS that doped or knew it was going on and turned a blind eye. But you can't say the riders are victims of this - a season long doping regime with regular withdrawls and infusions is a major undertaking in which the rider must be as cognisant of what is going on as any other member of the support team.

The culture has to change but that has to start somewhere and why not with the riders themselves?

 

[BigBoat]

BigBoat, doping was around in the early 70's when I road as an amateur at 16! Go big or go home, that was the motto then, that appears to be the motto now.

By the way, I went home.

Those that went big became National champs and later Olympians. I'm just sayin...

You seem to have suggested the exact same thing I just did. But in the 1970s there was no ultra effective drugs to use (no EPO, no blood doping, 02 carriers etc.) So who went to the top was the most talented.

 

[tifosa]

Not necessarily BigBoat. Those that had the intelligence and guts to decide for themselves not to succumb to peer pressure and PEDs, went home - which is what I did. That doesn't mean we didn't have talent. And that doesn't mean without drugs we would not have succeeded, nor been stars even with drugs. It simply means we stopped competing, and started riding for pleasure (at least I did.).

I suppose it's the same reason I still have my god given tits instead of taking my cue from a doctor who told me I'd be much happier as a D cup. But then again, that doctor never was a chic trying to improve her golf swing either.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Where are the threads ripping apart Tony Rominger, Indurain, Chiappuci?

Maybe because they "never tested positive"? Sorry, awful joke.

We'll, I'd say there are a lot of people who go after other riders who are racing and doped or are strongly suspected of doping in the past. One LA comes to mind. Valverde gets pretty well railed in forums. Ricco did, as did Rasmussen. I heap a lot of vile at the lying drug cheat Vinokourov, and his doped up buddy Kashekin. People even still make accusations aimed at Contador.

As an example, I'm sure if Floyd came up positive for anything these days he'd be nailed to the cross. As is now, he's pretty much ignored. Partly because he's on a domestic team and only riding average, and because he's mostly just stopped complaining about the past and said he only wants to ride.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't accept "Everyone else is doing it" from my kids and I sure as hell am not going to accept it form some professional athletes who are paid to ride their bikes.

Maybe instead of teaching your kids fairy tales about how black and white the world is, you would do better explaining that when they grow up they will often have to make tough decisions and do things they might not want to do, especially when they have to provide for a family. Part of being a man is struggling through a very imperfect world. Pretending that life is simple is more likely to turn you into a sanctimonious twit instead of a thinking adult who is prepared to deal life's complications.

 

[BroDeal]

The culture has to change but that has to start somewhere and why not with the riders themselves?

If only one rider out of a hundred is put against the wall and shot every year, it won't change anything. The other riders will alwys think that won't be caught because they are too smart, too lucky, paid off the UCI, or have friends in the OOC testing organization. With the low chance of being caught they will almost always be right.

It is like trying to reduce a town's recreational drug problem by catching the occasional user whlie ignoring the dealers and suppliers and pretending that there is not a party held every weekend where half the town gets together to smoke weed.

 

[whiteboytrash]

But what's the bigger picture with Hamilton - he's worked with Bruyneel, Riis and Pevenage - did nobody tell him to be a little more careful about the company he keeps? I'm all for cleaning out every team doctor that's been around since the bad old days, every DS that doped or knew it was going on and turned a blind eye. But you can't say the riders are victims of this - a season long doping regime with regular withdrawls and infusions is a major undertaking in which the rider must be as cognisant of what is going on as any other member of the support team.

The culture has to change but that has to start somewhere and why not with the riders themselves?

I agree. Bruyneel has a lot to answer for. Hamilton may want to go him as it was the Hog who introduced him to the "big time" doping back in 1999.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

BroDeal, you've got the best analogies for sure. This one is tops so far.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

...they will often have to make tough decisions and do things they might not want to do, especially when they have to provide for a family

Like it was the only employment he could get? Come on. Look, I agree with you that this is a systemic problem and Hamilton isn't the root, but he did have other life choices. This isn't Les Miserable here.

 

[BroDeal]

Like it was the only employment he could get? Come on. Look, I agree with you that this is a systemic problem and Hamilton isn't the root, but he did have other life choices. This isn't Les Miserable here.

Was it this forum or another where someone recently brought up a quote by Virenque. It was something like, "Early on I realized I was not very smart, so I decided to become a cyclist." The riders are not exactly highly educated rocket scientists, and most of these guys have never held a real 9-5 job.

Let's say you are a promising neo pro. After racing domestically for a while you go over to Europe and find that everyone is doped to the eyeballs and you can barely hang on to the back of the pack. How many people would just give up? Some do I am sure, but most people put into a systemic problem will go along to get along. That is why systemic problems can continue to exist. I don't have much doubt that realistically I would probably dope along with the rest of the riders.