The Froome Files, test data only thread

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Weight is a measurement. BMI is a calculation. That is a fundamental and substantial difference. Are you giving estimates from pictures taken from around that time more credence than a measurement taken the day of the test itself? Do you have a source for the caliper measurements?

So you use an anecdotal example to rebut an anecdotal example? It should be noted that I am very close to Froome's proportions, albeit an inch shorter. Unless Froome went on a long training ride prior to the test, your example doesn't seem very relevant. I doubt he would hit the buffet immediately beforehand either, but both are possible. If anything, his measured weight is likely to be an underestimation.

How so? Did JV teach the lab techs how to zero the scales or something?

Gazette in Italy made a quip about Froome's test:

"L'unica cifra di Froome su cui tutti all'incirca sono d'accordo è la sua età".

"The only figure of Froome on which all agree is about his age"

Funny

 

[Dear Wiggo]

rofl at the scientists who don't live in the real world. smh.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

rofl at the scientists who don't live in the real world. smh.

coyle

 

[Jimsnchz]

Maybe 2007 numbers are legit for 2007. He comes to Europe as pack fodder and hooks up with Barloworld. A team that was obviously using EPO, but not close to the top programs of the day. So the results from their meager program are what they are. Some can see the test results of possible engine but need to determine if he is a true responder. Get's in with a big budget team with access to all the latest (AICAR & GW). Boom! Great responder to that program. I guess what I'm saying is don't discount the likelihood that he was on some low level program in 2007.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Maybe 2007 numbers are legit for 2007. He comes to Europe as pack fodder and hooks up with Barloworld. A team that was obviously using EPO, but not close to the top programs of the day. So the results from their meager program are what they are. Some can see the test results of possible engine but need to determine if he is a true responder. Get's in with a big budget team with access to all the latest (AICAR & GW). Boom! Great responder to that program. I guess what I'm saying is don't discount the likelihood that he was on some low level program in 2007.

did he also ride a year with John Robertsons other team, the feeder Konica Minolta with the World Cycling Academy in Aigle that year too?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Maybe 2007 numbers are legit for 2007. He comes to Europe as pack fodder and hooks up with Barloworld. A team that was obviously using EPO, but not close to the top programs of the day. So the results from their meager program are what they are. Some can see the test results of possible engine but need to determine if he is a true responder. Get's in with a big budget team with access to all the latest (AICAR & GW). Boom! Great responder to that program. I guess what I'm saying is don't discount the likelihood that he was on some low level program in 2007.

did he also ride a year with John Robertsons other team, the feeder Konica Minolta with the World Cycling Academy in Aigle that year too?

He did, doing 7 hour rides on his own, with food taped to his bike and carrying 17% body fat.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Re:

"Negative Press"? Got any links?

LOL sure. Seeing that my first response was deleted, I was forced to spend .02 seconds tracking down several.

Does French TV count? Are they press? Is this negative?

Chris Froome and sections of the British media have followed up on Laurent Jalabert's comments, which they say insinuate that the Team Sky rider might be doping. Jalabert, who does commentary on French television for the Tour de France, denied the remarks, which had however been broadcast on radio and television.

Of course that same story was then reported by CN and Cycling Weekly (among countless others). Do they count? Are they press? Would headlines such as, "Former French cyclist calls Froome’s performance 'surreal'" be considered negative or positive for Sky's image?

I could on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...but it would be easier for you to just type "Froome suspicion" into Google. Some fun reading there (154,000 results according to the internet overlords).

Oh what the hell, I may as well share some of the headlines at least.

Froome faces suspicion after "killing" the Tour

The Curious case of Chris Froome

Sceptics look at Froome with suspicion

Tour de France: Froome hits back at doubts and innuendo

Why does Chris Froome have so many doubters?

French accuse Froome of electric motor cheat!

Crushing rivals with ease, Chris Froome faces fan's doping suspicions

Why are Team Sky attracting doubters?


Glowing reviews there. Even if some articles go on to defend Froome, the damaging headlines sow the seeds of doubt for many.

Sorry for no links this time. You'll just have to take my word for it.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

"Negative Press"? Got any links?

LOL sure. Seeing that my first response was deleted, I was forced to spend .02 seconds tracking down several.

Does French TV count? Are they press? Is this negative?

Chris Froome and sections of the British media have followed up on Laurent Jalabert's comments, which they say insinuate that the Team Sky rider might be doping. Jalabert, who does commentary on French television for the Tour de France, denied the remarks, which had however been broadcast on radio and television.

Of course that same story was then reported by CN and Cycling Weekly (among countless others). Do they count? Are they press? Would headlines such as, "Former French cyclist calls Froome’s performance 'surreal'" be considered negative or positive for Sky's image?

I could on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...but it would be easier for you to just type "Froome suspicion" into Google. Some fun reading there (154,000 results according to the internet overlords).

Oh what the hell, I may as well share some of the headlines at least.

Froome faces suspicion after "killing" the Tour

The Curious case of Chris Froome

Sceptics look at Froome with suspicion

Tour de France: Froome hits back at doubts and innuendo

Why does Chris Froome have so many doubters?

French accuse Froome of electric motor cheat!

Crushing rivals with ease, Chris Froome faces fan's doping suspicions

Why are Team Sky attracting doubters?

Glowing reviews there. Even if some articles go on to defend Froome, the damaging headlines sow the seeds of doubt for many.

Sorry for no links this time. You'll just have to take my word for it.

As I indicated before, the proximal cause of Froome's desire to try to prove he's clean seems to have been the press conference the day after he seized the yellow jersey at this year's TdF. (At least, that's when I first got wind that he wanted to do physiological testing.)

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

As I indicated before, the proximal cause of Froome's desire to try to prove he's clean seems to have been the press conference the day after he seized the yellow jersey at this year's TdF. (At least, that's when I first got wind that he wanted to do physiological testing.)

cheerleading much?

the proximal cause for froome's idea to fake independent testing i think was the hacking of his data and the small shitstorm that created.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-froome-to-undergo-independent-testing-to-try-to-prove-hes-clean/

 

[sniper]

This was Ross Tucker, july 17, 2015, two days after Froome had announced to undergo independent testing, proposing "several key areas Froome could be transparent over":

· Several sets of independent lab tests carried out through a season by an independent tester or testing body with no links to Team Sky, British Cycling or a national federation.
· Full disclosure of all medication including TUEs taken and prescribed since 2010 – the date from which Froome joined Team Sky.
· Full power to weight data released to an independent body for analysis – again from 2010 onwards. The data released in 2013 did not complete the picture.
· Conduct a full asthma examination to prove that the use of current medication is required, along with any relevant backdated prescriptions.
· Provide all Biological Passport data to an independent body.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/will-independent-testing-work-for-chris-froome/

Froome hasn't delivered on a single one of those.
I don't think you can speak of "Froome's desire to try and prove he's clean".
There was/is no such desire.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Weight is a measurement. BMI is a calculation. That is a fundamental and substantial difference. Are you giving estimates from pictures taken from around that time more credence than a measurement taken the day of the test itself? Do you have a source for the caliper measurements?

So you use an anecdotal example to rebut an anecdotal example? It should be noted that I am very close to Froome's proportions, albeit an inch shorter. Unless Froome went on a long training ride prior to the test, your example doesn't seem very relevant. I doubt he would hit the buffet immediately beforehand either, but both are possible. If anything, his measured weight is likely to be an underestimation.

How so? Did JV teach the lab techs how to zero the scales or something?

Where did I say anything about JV? I think your facts are wrong. JV wouldn't have been involved with the lab in Lausanne in 2007. If someone is going to get weighed officially, it is human nature to want to try to diet a little before the weigh-in. Have you ever taken a physical exam? So, my guess is his walking around weight is more than what his weigh-in weight would be, thus the underestimation. Capice?

 

[djpbaltimore]

Yes, I used anecdotal to show how fraught it is when discussing scientific output.

As you have the exact same proportions to Froome, perhaps you could do a skin-fold test for for the Clinic? It would be good to compare a pro-cyclist to yourself and determine if 17% is realistic for a full time pro in 2007.

Let us know.

Of course, I'll get right on that. I'm still interested in what you think is the best indicator of Froome's weight at the time of the 2007 tests. You neglected to answer that question. If not the weight measured on the day of the test, what?

 

[attila]

So has anyone been able to ask these two baffling questions, yet?

How is it possible that Froome hits 420w/ftp at under 140bpm, while having an additional 30-40 bpm left in the tank? Does this mean that this is like "over-rev" on a two stroke moto? 30-40 bpm is a lot of over-rev...

And how is it possible that Sky- the super meticulous, training gods of cycling- have not managed to get one single, solitary watt more from Froome, over 5 years of development?

Seems like lots of arguing about faxes and stuff, while everyone overlooks the obvious.

Well said. Another thought: the last time I was at 17% body fat I had been inactive for 6 weeks due to a serious injury (I'm a former Futbol player/cyclist). I basically slept and ate and drank coffee with lots of cream. Also my beer intake was significant. My weight was high and my conditioning low, to put it bluntly. I was tested at a national gym for VO2 and body fat at the end. My #s on BF were about same as Froome. Seriously??? Why would anyone believe that a pro cyclist of his stature could attain those levels of body fat during a season? And still compete at a UCI Pro level? Unless you're a track sprinter or impersonating a Japanese bullet train.

 

[sniper]

Of course, I'll get right on that. I'm still interested in what you think is the best indicator of Froome's weight at the time of the 2007 tests. You neglected to answer that question. If not the weight measured on the day of the test, what?

sorry to respond on Hog's behalf, but it should be clear by now that there are several indicators (Froome's own training anecdotes, photos, the BMI) suggesting he weighed less and had less body fat than what is indicated on the sheet. Why should one of them be 'the best indicator'? It's their sum that is compelling.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

This was Ross Tucker, july 17, 2015, two days after Froome had announced to undergo independent testing, proposing "several key areas Froome could be transparent over":

· Several sets of independent lab tests carried out through a season by an independent tester or testing body with no links to Team Sky, British Cycling or a national federation.
· Full disclosure of all medication including TUEs taken and prescribed since 2010 – the date from which Froome joined Team Sky.
· Full power to weight data released to an independent body for analysis – again from 2010 onwards. The data released in 2013 did not complete the picture.
· Conduct a full asthma examination to prove that the use of current medication is required, along with any relevant backdated prescriptions.
· Provide all Biological Passport data to an independent body.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/will-independent-testing-work-for-chris-froome/

Froome hasn't delivered on a single one of those.
I don't think you can speak of "Froome's desire to try and prove he's clean".
There was/is no such desire.

Report: Froome to undergo independent testing to try to prove he's clean CN article

Chris Froome to release more data to prove he is clean after second Tour de France triumph Mirror article

Froome says tests prove he rides clean, though doubters remain Reuters

Objectively, I would say the reporting clearly indicates that the desire underlying the tests was to prove that he was clean. Whether it was effective is a different argument.

 

[sniper]

How is it relevant what those headlines say, other than that they show how easy it is to get a cheap PR message out in the open.

Let's stick to that Ross quote.

· Several sets of independent lab tests carried out through a season by an independent tester or testing body with no links to Team Sky, British Cycling or a national federation.

that criterium wasn't met. objectively.
All the other suggestions made by Ross weren't met either.
So not sure what you're arguing for.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

Of course, I'll get right on that. I'm still interested in what you think is the best indicator of Froome's weight at the time of the 2007 tests. You neglected to answer that question. If not the weight measured on the day of the test, what?

sorry to respond on Hog's behalf, but it should be clear by now that there are several indicators (Froome's own training anecdotes, photos, the BMI) suggesting he weighed less and had less body fat than what is indicated on the sheet. Why should one of them be 'the best indicator'? It's their sum that is compelling.

You yourself called Froome a pathological liar in this very thread, so now you are taking his training anecdotes and self-reported weight as unimpeachable? Until we can match a verified weight to any of the photos to create a standard scale from which to interpolate, I don't see how those are relevant either. There was also a photo making the rounds where he looks downright chubby. I still don't see how one can just discount the one independent measure. Objectively, this is the most reliable finding. If you are really trying to make the claim that the lab reported fraudulent data, so be it. I will not argue that point. I think that is a low probability possibility.

viewtopic.php?p=1846477#p1846477

People are talking about Froome's desire, not Ross Tucker's desire. I fail to see how you can claim to know his desire when all the reporting seems to indicate that the message Froome wished to espouse was that the tests proved/ will prove his cleanliness. The claim he makes is specious, but the desire is obvious.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

so now you are taking his training anecdotes and self-reported weight as unimpeachable?

Take a breath. I didnt say any of that.

Until we can match a verified weight to any of the photos to create a standard scale from which to interpolate, I don't see how those are relevant either. There was also a photo making the rounds where he looks downright chubby. I still don't see how one can just discount the one independent measure. Objectively, this is the most reliable finding. If you are really trying to make the claim that the lab reported fraudulent data, so be it. I will not argue that point. I think that is a low probability possibility.

fair enough. i think my previous points still stand.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

As I indicated before, the proximal cause of Froome's desire to try to prove he's clean seems to have been the press conference the day after he seized the yellow jersey at this year's TdF. (At least, that's when I first got wind that he wanted to do physiological testing.)

cheerleading much?

Cheerleading for whom? I'm just sharing what I know (note the word "proximal").

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

As I indicated before, the proximal cause of Froome's desire to try to prove he's clean seems to have been the press conference the day after he seized the yellow jersey at this year's TdF. (At least, that's when I first got wind that he wanted to do physiological testing.)

cheerleading much?

the proximal cause for froome's idea to fake independent testing i think was the hacking of his data and the small shitstorm that created.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-froome-to-undergo-independent-testing-to-try-to-prove-hes-clean/

Okay, after following that link it seems that we're both identifying the same date/events.

EDIT: After consulting a calendar, it was on July 14th that I learned that Froome (not Team Sky) was seeking to do something specific to try to refute his critics.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

As I indicated before, the proximal cause of Froome's desire to try to prove he's clean seems to have been the press conference the day after he seized the yellow jersey at this year's TdF. (At least, that's when I first got wind that he wanted to do physiological testing.)

cheerleading much?

Cheerleading for whom? I'm just sharing what I know (note the word "proximal").

for reasons i posted directly afterwards, i don't think it's justified to attribute to Froome any kind of "desire to try and prove he's clean".

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

This was Ross Tucker, july 17, 2015, two days after Froome had announced to undergo independent testing, proposing "several key areas Froome could be transparent over":

· Conduct a full asthma examination to prove that the use of current medication is required, along with any relevant backdated prescriptions.

That's a standout point right there. Then again, we wouldn't Chris to have to revisit the terrifying stigma associated with asthma any more than is necessary.

- Full disclosure of all medication including TUEs taken and prescribed since 2010 – the date from which Froome joined Team Sky.

This is another one that is often side-stepped by Froome. He has objected to the idea of TUE's being made public due to concerns of privacy and to avoid potential embarrassment. Granted, he was speaking more in general terms of the peloton and not himself specifically, but it raises a point worth discussing.

What sorts of TUEs might a rider to need help cope with a condition that might be embarrassing to them personally? And the obvious extension of that is: What might those embarrassing conditions be that would require a TUE?

STDs would certainly fit the bill, but (thankfully) I'm not aware of how such treatment might stray into the area of TUEs.

If this is too far off-topic than I'll gladly move the discussion to another thread.

----------------
As a sidebar, here is an interesting link to that same topic that some may have missed.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1846209#p1846209

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

This was Ross Tucker, july 17, 2015, two days after Froome had announced to undergo independent testing, proposing "several key areas Froome could be transparent over":

· Conduct a full asthma examination to prove that the use of current medication is required, along with any relevant backdated prescriptions.

That's a standout point right there. Then again, we wouldn't Chris to have to revisit the terrifying stigma associated with asthma any more than is necessary.

- Full disclosure of all medication including TUEs taken and prescribed since 2010 – the date from which Froome joined Team Sky.

This is another one that is often side-stepped by Froome. He has objected to the idea of TUE's being made public due to concerns of privacy and to avoid potential embarrassment. Granted, he was speaking more in general terms of the peloton and not himself specifically, but it raises a point worth discussing.

What sorts of TUEs might a rider to need help cope with a condition that might be embarrassing to them personally? And the obvious extension of that is: What might those embarrassing conditions be that would require a TUE?

STDs would certainly fit the bill, but (thankfully) I'm not aware of how such treatment might stray into the area of TUEs.

If this is too far off-topic than I'll gladly move the discussion to another thread.

(And what the hell is up with the "quoting" features around here? Too many edits... )

The asthma issue is a nobrainer. It's not in his books. He never had it. Shocker.
And I agree it's a standout point. Him sidestepping that one is suggestive of a total lack of desire to show he's clean.

The ethical points you raise are interesting, but it's typical "grey area" stuff. Exactly what Sky wants you to focus on, as it only deflects away from several elephants in the room.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Another thought: the last time I was at 17% body fat I had been inactive for 6 weeks due to a serious injury (I'm a former Futbol player/cyclist).

I was tested at a national gym for VO2 and body fat at the end. My #s on BF were about same as Froome.

Could you tell us which method was used to measure your body fat?

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Re:

Maybe 2007 numbers are legit for 2007. He comes to Europe as pack fodder and hooks up with Barloworld. A team that was obviously using EPO, but not close to the top programs of the day. So the results from their meager program are what they are. Some can see the test results of possible engine but need to determine if he is a true responder. Get's in with a big budget team with access to all the latest (AICAR & GW). Boom! Great responder to that program. I guess what I'm saying is don't discount the likelihood that he was on some low level program in 2007.

did he also ride a year with John Robertsons other team, the feeder Konica Minolta with the World Cycling Academy in Aigle that year too?

He did, doing 7 hour rides on his own, with food taped to his bike and carrying 17% body fat.