The Froome Files, test data only thread

[thehog]

Re:

I have no theory about what the different outfits mean. I am not familiar with that kind of data collection setup.

Likewise. Will wait for the final report to make conclusions.

The second heart rate strap appears then disappears.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

lets go to Swart's statement on the loss of heart rate data from this Forum:

Case in point regarding the heart rate: I did notice that the heart rate signal had suddenly disappeared and pointed it out to the other scientists. This happened a few minutes before the end of the VO2max test. Other than trying to reposition the belt or try to remove the heart rate belt and replacing it with another one there is very little you can do in that situation. When a cyclist is riding at close to their maximum you cannot start tugging up their shirt and trying to pull off a belt from under their bibs to try and replace it. Your lack of insight and experience regarding this is clear but you are quick to provide scathing comment

All fair points from Dr. Swart. Yet when you see the picture of Froome, is he wearing two hear rate monitors? And he's not actually wearing any bibs, just regular cycling shorts - bibless.

That's a little more than an oversight, that's just changing the actual reality and truth.

Or (most likely) he simply wore bib shorts during the submaximal and maximal (VO2) tests on day 1, and regular shorts during the environmental testing on day 2.

Furthermore, even if that isn't the explanation, Swart could have simply been providing an example of the sort of thing you have to deal with and the rapid decisions you must make when something goes awry during testing. IOW, he very well could have been talking in generalities, and not specifically about Froome's test.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

The South African Augustyn, Swart and then Julich connection and that Swart was at this years Tour, perhaps Swart should have declined the offer to test? It appears rather odd that he was the one that was called up and accepted the offer. I don't doubt Swart did his job professionally but even with the slightest hint of conflict ones views can be compromised, even inadvertently.

My suggestion to Team Sky was that they have Froome tested at multiple labs, to avoid any appearance of favoritism and to rule out any lab-to-lab variance. In the end, though, it appears that they decided it was better to leave Froome to his own devices, so it couldn't be said that they were orchestrating things.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

we've seen blunders (e.g. bmi), omissions (e.g. swart's previous links to Julich, a.o.) and contradictions (two different accounts of when they got the 2007 data).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mark Burnley say that the fax data was obtained at the "11th hour" in response to a statement that they had had "two or three months" to go over the data? If that is to what you are alluding, I don't see the contradiction - for example, they could have gotten the fax a few days before the August 17th tests and included them in the PowerPoint presentation, and it still would have been "11th hour" compared to having had several months' lead time.

Perhaps you are referring to something else?

 

[acoggan]

the real question is how weight loss occurs naturally without losing power. Hint - it doesn't.

Actually, it can.

But surely there's a limit to what can be done safely and without pharmaceutical assistance. You can only atrophy to a certain point before experiencing loss of strength, look at anorexics for example.

You've worked with countless athletes and developed a lot of the power modelling and training techniques currently in use, what's your personal experience with this? Have you ever seen an athlete lose weight to an unsafe level but still retain power, or at least power to weight?

Of course there's a limit, especially if you lose weight too rapidly, or due to life stress - see #10:

http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/2011/08/top-10-things-ive-learned-using-power.html

As for working with "countless athletes", that's actually not true (I'm a biomedical researcher in a medical school, not a coach or sports scientist). That said, I know of at least two individuals (already relatively lean, mind you) who lost significant amounts of weight while not only increasing their power relative to body mass, but in absolute terms as well (one a World Champion, the other a young cat. 1).

Of course, the question is did Froome manage to pull this off without doping? That is a question I am not in a position to answer.

Cool, but just how significant was the weight loss? Was this down to the kind of levels that Froome has reached in the recent past? Because there's been points where he makes riders like Andy Schleck and Michael Rasmussen look VERY heavy.

As I added in editing my post, >5% of body mass in both cases. The World Champion (female) ended up visually being leaner (I'd say the female equivalent to someone like Froome), but the actual change was more apparent for cat. 1 (male).

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

The South African Augustyn, Swart and then Julich connection and that Swart was at this years Tour, perhaps Swart should have declined the offer to test? It appears rather odd that he was the one that was called up and accepted the offer. I don't doubt Swart did his job professionally but even with the slightest hint of conflict ones views can be compromised, even inadvertently.

My suggestion to Team Sky was that they have Froome tested at multiple labs, to avoid any appearance of favoritism and to rule out any lab-to-lab variance. In the end, though, it appears that they decided it was better to leave Froome to his own devices, so it couldn't be said that they were orchestrating things.

That's a farfetched interpretation. More logical to assume they thought it was a bad idea to have him tested anywhere other than in a lab and by testers they have had prior experiences with. Which we know is the case for both Swart and the GSK guys.

 

[red_flanders]

Mr Swart wants me to mention all his tweets, as he thinks that changes the context of the discussion. I don't think they do. But here they are.

Hitch: @JeroenSwart you took 1 extreme example from 07, and concluded that sky conserve energy better while climbing than Epo era riders did.

Hitch: @JeroenSwart thats unscientific. 1 could just as easily compare 09 verbier (1 attack) to 13 ventoux (3) and get the reverse conclusion

Swart: @The_Hitch22 the tactic of riding to power is a well known tactic of Sky. It's not a one off.

Swart: @The_Hitch22 true. But on the whole the tactic has been used by them with great success.

Hitch: @JeroenSwart sky didn't invent this "tactic". Setting team pace has always been around. Used notably by uspostal in 04 and liquigas in 2010.

Hitch: @JeroenSwart If anything its way more suspicious if 5 riders on one team are strong enough to drop gt contenders on all the other teams.

Swart: @The_Hitch22 yes but they would only use it to stage attacks. Sky don't follow attacks they wear them down. E.g Evans & TVG attacks.

Swart: @The_Hitch22 it's a fundamentally different approach.

Hitch: @JeroenSwart When Contador was weak (2012 Vuelta) he attacked 50 times a stage. When he was strong (2009 TDF) he attacked only once.

Swart: @The_Hitch22 and now you say it's not something different and that its always been that way? That's clearly not the case.

Swart: @The_Hitch22 commentators have been pointing this Sky pacing out for years. Even to the point of saying it is boring & ruining the sport.

Hitch: @JeroenSwart so you admit that when you said froomes style of ridding conserves energy better, you didn't actually know if it's true or not?

Swart: @The_Hitch22 see my subsequent response.

Swart: @The_Hitch22in addition you're trying to hammer on 1 of 200 points I made in a podcast of 90min. The clinic is where you need to do that.

Hitch: @JeroenSwart Oh we can dance on the other points. Eg when you said there are no witnesses speaking out like there were with Lance...

Hitch: @JeroenSwart are you aware of the hundreds of other dopers in history who also never had witnesses against them?

Swart: @The_Hitch22 on another point: why are you & all the clinic lynching mob anonymous accounts. Why not engage in the open? Just interested...

Surprised he wanted you to post that. More confirmation of bias.

 

[sniper]

As I added in editing my post, >5% of body mass in both cases. The World Champion (female) ended up visually being leaner (I'd say the female equivalent to someone like Froome), but the actual change was more apparent for cat. 1 (male).

do you have any idea whether or not she was doping in order to achieve that weight loss?
Or was it a matter of good faith?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

Which trainer in Switzerland? I'm sure you have a link for this?

Link(s) have been posted several times to this thread already. Heck, even I know that, and I only peek in here occasionally for the entertainment value.

Good point, but when you have so much power, incluis too much fat, wouldnt that power somehow been seen in Time Trials? Would that be a strange question?

And, hats off for your contributions in this topic, much appreciated.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Or (most likely) he simply wore bib shorts during the submaximal and maximal (VO2) tests on day 1, and regular shorts during the environmental testing on day 2.

It occurred to me that it's also possible that the submaximal and maximal tests were separated by enough time that Froome might have chosen to change into a different kit.

Now, which one of you conspiracy theorists wants to go through the video that has been released frame-by-frame to see if you can spot the shooter on the grassy knoll?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

I don't know how relevant any one picture is to anything, but this does look like there are bibs and one heart rate monitor. Source is esquire article.

http://chrisfroome.esquire.co.uk/

He did not the test at all. All we have seen is just bluff. MIchelle and Chris bought Swart and GSK and they made up the story of testing and the results. Or! The guy in the picture is not Froome at all, it's a clone or a completely different alien, straight from the planet Krypton!

mods, imo this post is unnecessarily ridiculizing a serious line of inquiry.
it seems to me classic baiting by means of a strawman.
imo the thread will quickly become unreadable (to the extent that it is still readable) due to such strawmen.
just my 2 cents.

Lets move on...

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Which trainer in Switzerland? I'm sure you have a link for this?

Link(s) have been posted several times to this thread already. Heck, even I know that, and I only peek in here occasionally for the entertainment value.

Good point, but when you have so much power, incluis too much fat, wouldnt that power somehow been seen in Time Trials? Would that be a strange question?

You would assume so. Keep in mind, however, that the 2007 testing really only provides an indirect estimate of his sustainable power back then. The same could actually be said about the 2015 testing.

IOW, it's possible that Froome's absolute power has increased some over the years, even if his VO2max (in L/min) has reportedly gone down a little.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Lets move on...

definitely, but imo the mods need to take this thread by the balls and make sure it remains readable.
after all, we have a world-renowned sports physician lurking along.

edit: they've been doing a great job keeping it relatively clean so far, admittedly.

 

[acoggan]

As I added in editing my post, >5% of body mass in both cases. The World Champion (female) ended up visually being leaner (I'd say the female equivalent to someone like Froome), but the actual change was more apparent for cat. 1 (male).

do you have any idea whether or not she was doping in order to achieve that weight loss?
Or was it a matter of good faith?

No idea.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

I don't know how relevant any one picture is to anything, but this does look like there are bibs and one heart rate monitor. Source is esquire article.

http://chrisfroome.esquire.co.uk/

He did not the test at all. All we have seen is just bluff. MIchelle and Chris bought Swart and GSK and they made up the story of testing and the results. Or! The guy in the picture is not Froome at all, it's a clone or a completely different alien, straight from the planet Krypton!

mods, imo this post is unnecessarily ridiculizing a serious line of inquiry.
it seems to me classic baiting by means of a strawman.
imo the thread will quickly become unreadable (to the extent that it is still readable) due to such strawmen.
just my 2 cents.

C'mon, I thought it was funny. All it needed was an allusion to a Hollywood sound stage, and it would have been perfect.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Or (most likely) he simply wore bib shorts during the submaximal and maximal (VO2) tests on day 1, and regular shorts during the environmental testing on day 2.

Now, which one of you conspiracy theorists wants to go through the video that has been released frame-by-frame to see if you can spot the shooter on the grassy knoll?

The "grassy knoll" quote is so overused that it has become clichéd in any context its used.

Its almost like "I've run out of things to say, so I'll pop the term grassy knoll in here and that will make everyone become defensive'.

Rather than conspiracy, and as you would attest people work though issues and hypothesis to varying different conclusions, its very normal. Another term would be "brainstorming" rather than the lazy term "its a conspiracy".

Poor posting to be honest, would have expected better.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I don't know how relevant any one picture is to anything, but this does look like there are bibs and one heart rate monitor. Source is esquire article.

http://chrisfroome.esquire.co.uk/

He did not the test at all. All we have seen is just bluff. MIchelle and Chris bought Swart and GSK and they made up the story of testing and the results. Or! The guy in the picture is not Froome at all, it's a clone or a completely different alien, straight from the planet Krypton!

mods, imo this post is unnecessarily ridiculizing a serious line of inquiry.
it seems to me classic baiting by means of a strawman.
imo the thread will quickly become unreadable (to the extent that it is still readable) due to such strawmen.
just my 2 cents.

C'mon, I thought it was funny. All it needed was an allusion to a Hollywood sound stage, and it would have been perfect.

man, was i wrong thinking you could only appreciate and state facts.
i like the flexibility you're showing here.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

I don't know how relevant any one picture is to anything, but this does look like there are bibs and one heart rate monitor. Source is esquire article.

http://chrisfroome.esquire.co.uk/

He did not the test at all. All we have seen is just bluff. MIchelle and Chris bought Swart and GSK and they made up the story of testing and the results. Or! The guy in the picture is not Froome at all, it's a clone or a completely different alien, straight from the planet Krypton!

mods, imo this post is unnecessarily ridiculizing a serious line of inquiry.
it seems to me classic baiting by means of a strawman.
imo the thread will quickly become unreadable (to the extent that it is still readable) due to such strawmen.
just my 2 cents.

C'mon, I thought it was funny. All it needed was an allusion to a Hollywood sound stage, and it would have been perfect.

Of course it was funny, just like my picture of Rick James was, yet this one still stands and My Post Of The Day is deleted; have some fun peeps, it is Friday!

A bit of banter should be allowed, remember, them British are the best Hooligans around

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Rather than conspiracy, and as you would attest people work though issues and hypothesis to varying different conclusions, its very normal. Another term would be "brainstorming" rather than the lazy term "its a conspiracy".

<sarcasm mode on>

Yes, as if pouring over photographs and videos of the testing to see whether or not Froome dresses right or left will tell you whether of not he dopes.

<sarcasm mode off>

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Criminy, this is how poor the "brainstorming" is in here: I posted this pic the other day because I thought it provided at least a little insight into Froome's body composition/body fat distribution. If any of you super-sleuths had bothered to read the caption (use the slider to scroll down a bit), you wouldn't be speculating over ECG patches.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Rather than conspiracy, and as you would attest people work though issues and hypothesis to varying different conclusions, its very normal. Another term would be "brainstorming" rather than the lazy term "its a conspiracy".

Yes, as if pouring over photographs and videos of the testing to see whether or not Froome dresses right or left will tell you whether of not he dopes.

True, however who said those integrations were to determine doping or not? Its a discussion forum, that's what people are doing, discussing.

Not sure why you're trying to set an agenda that doesn't actually exist. Most odd.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Rather than conspiracy, and as you would attest people work though issues and hypothesis to varying different conclusions, its very normal. Another term would be "brainstorming" rather than the lazy term "its a conspiracy".

Yes, as if pouring over photographs and videos of the testing to see whether or not Froome dresses right or left will tell you whether of not he dopes.

True, however who said those integrations were to determine doping or not?

Oops, apparently I'm in the wrong clinic - I thought the subject here was doping, not urology.

Sure but its not the only subject. Many points are discussed, some might lead to doping, others not.

Its not binary you know, you are aware there's room for variance, yes? Again, not sure why you would pursue the "conspiracy" agenda.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Too many pictures of a half-naked Chris Froome in this thread

 

[sniper]

As I added in editing my post, >5% of body mass in both cases. The World Champion (female) ended up visually being leaner (I'd say the female equivalent to someone like Froome), but the actual change was more apparent for cat. 1 (male).

do you have any idea whether or not she was doping in order to achieve that weight loss?
Or was it a matter of good faith?

No idea.

thanks for confirming.
great science!

 

[acoggan]

As I added in editing my post, >5% of body mass in both cases. The World Champion (female) ended up visually being leaner (I'd say the female equivalent to someone like Froome), but the actual change was more apparent for cat. 1 (male).

do you have any idea whether or not she was doping in order to achieve that weight loss?
Or was it a matter of good faith?

No idea.

thanks for confirming.
great science!

Not science, just an anecdote.